dreamdancer 0 #1 February 16, 2011 a bit of logical thought for those who can't think for themselves... Quote"Why not believe in God? If you believe and you turn out to be wrong, you haven't lost anything. But if you don't believe and you turn out to be wrong, you lose everything. Isn't believing the safer bet?" In debates about religion, this argument keeps coming up. Over, and over, and over again. In almost any debate about religion, if the debate lasts long enough, someone is almost guaranteed to bring it up. The argument even has a name: Pascal's Wager, after Blaise Pascal, the philosopher who most famously formulated it. And it makes atheists want to tear our hair out. Not because it's a great argument... but because it's such a manifestly lousy one. It doesn't make logical sense. It doesn't make practical sense. It trivializes the whole idea of both belief and non-belief. It trivializes reality. In fact, it concedes the argument before it's even begun. Demolishing Pascal's Wager is like shooting fish in a barrel. Unusually slow fish, in a tiny, tiny barrel. I almost feel guilty writing an entire piece about it. It's such low-hanging fruit. But alas, it's a ridiculously common argument. In fact, it's one of the most common arguments made in favor of religion. So today, I'm going to take a deep breath, and put on a hat so I don't tear my hair out, and spend a little time annihilating it. Which God? The first and most obvious problem with Pascal's Wager? It assumes there's only one religion, and only one version of God. http://www.alternet.org/belief/149920/why_it%27s_not_a_%27safe_bet%27_to_believe_in_god/stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MBiegs 0 #2 February 16, 2011 Yeah, that whole safe bet thing never made sense to me... I think any god that is "all knowing" would know you're just believing in it because it's a "safe bet" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #3 February 16, 2011 Quotea bit of logical thought for those who can't think for themselves... Which is why all your posts are cut/pasted from somewhere else.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #4 February 16, 2011 The irony is 'kin hilarious ... > Followed by a Cut & Paste Quote (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #5 February 16, 2011 Damn Mike - you beat me (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
winsor 230 #6 February 16, 2011 QuoteQuotea bit of logical thought for those who can't think for themselves... Which is why all your posts are cut/pasted from somewhere else. You've been taken in by a cut'n'pastebot. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #7 February 16, 2011 logic is logic - which bit do you disagree with?stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #8 February 16, 2011 Quotelogic is logic - which bit do you disagree with? -The part about you bashing those who believe in God. -The part about you telling anyone that your way of thinking is right and theirs is wrong. -The abject arrogance of it all.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
winsor 230 #9 February 16, 2011 QuoteQuotelogic is logic - which bit do you disagree with? -The part about you bashing those who believe in God. -The part about you telling anyone that your way of thinking is right and theirs is wrong. -The abject arrogance of it all. Bots are like that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Meso 38 #10 February 16, 2011 The last 2 are pretty natural traits. Everyone thinks they are right and those who disagree are wrong. I mean isn't that the point of believing something? Being sure that you are correct? I know I sure wouldn't want to be living a life where I thought my way of thinking was wrong and everyone else's were right. And considering not believing in God and believing in God are two very opposite patterns of thought. If you're on one side, you have to believe that you're right and the other is wrong. It's very nice in theory to 'respect peoples believes and not think that you're right and their wrong", but the fact of the matter is that's just an impossible way of thinking, the only difference is some people tend to keep their thoughts in their head, either to avoid arguments or come off like less of a dick. As for arrogance, arrogance is merely the outward portrayal of high confidence in what you believe and the willingness to express it. Whether or not these are positive or negative attributes is a different argument, but they're definitely 'normal'. I know I'm sure as hell more right than anyone else, if I wasn't sure of that- I'd change my beliefs and ideals so that I did feel they were the best. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #11 February 16, 2011 Quotearrogance is merely the outward portrayal of high confidence in what you believe and the willingness to express it. ar·ro·gance offensive display of superiority or self-importance; overbearing pride.Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Meso 38 #12 February 16, 2011 Last time I checked pride was a pretty good human trait, rather have too much of it than none at all. And offensive? Remember that offence is taken not given. As for self importance, again... Isn't that the point in life, to mold yourself to be 'the best' possible? Or is that something you're supposed to strive for but never achieve, or if you do achieve it you're supposed to keep it quiet? I'd rather be arrogant than have low self-esteem thanks. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #13 February 16, 2011 QuoteLast time I checked pride was a pretty good human trait, rather have too much of it than none at all. All nefarious behavior can be traced back to one human trait...can you guess which one? Humility is perhaps one of the hardest human traits to cultivated, yet the most beneficial to society. QuoteAnd offensive? Remember that offence is taken not given. Ok, so lets just go around being fu***ng assholes all day long and be proud of it. QuoteAs for self importance, again... Isn't that the point in life, to mold yourself to be 'the best' possible? I'd rather strive to actually be important rather than to be deluded with self importance. QuoteIsn't that the point in life, to mold yourself to be 'the best' possible? Or is that something you're supposed to strive for but never achieve I'd like to believe that there are always areas of our lives that can be improved. QuoteI'd rather be arrogant than have low self-esteem thanks. I'd rather be a well balanced person...Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
virgin-burner 1 #14 February 16, 2011 i've seen more self-righteous behaviour of the "believers" on here than so-called non-believers. i think i've said that not too long ago, as long as you leave me alone, why should i care what you believe in? if you beat the shit out of someone, or just put someone down with words, you're the way worse person than a peaceful atheist. i been doing martial arts for a long time, i could probably kick the shit out of some douchebag anytime. does that mean i do!? nope, whenever i smell trouble coming up, i'm probably the first to leave the scene and not look back. this is about choice. you can choose to be a "good person" or not. if you choose to be a "bad person", so be it. religion does not come into play with this choices.. if a "higher entity that judges us" exists, i'm pretty sure she will judge us on our choices, and not our beliefs..“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RonD1120 59 #15 February 16, 2011 Your post adequately makes my point. People almost never become believers through intellectual debate. God requires obedience and faith. You must surrender your ego to God to receive the evidence your require.Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #16 February 16, 2011 Quote i've seen more self-righteous behaviour of the "believers" on here than so-called non-believers. I've learned that it is better to examine yourself...We are always gonna see the negatives of those that don't share our world view before we see our own, unless we delbirately make a conscious and objective effort to evaluate ourselves. Quote if a "higher entity that judges us" exists, i'm pretty sure she will judge us on our choices, and not our beliefs.. Ok, but then the next question is by what standards does she judge? Btw, from what I've read you haven't been fairing so well with the ladies lately...Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
virgin-burner 1 #17 February 16, 2011 Quote Your post adequately makes my point. People almost never become believers through intellectual debate. God requires obedience and faith. You must surrender your ego to God to receive the evidence your require. obedience and faith, uh!? still you're fucked if you are about to enter heavens gate and the first thing you hear is "allahu ackbar", right!? “Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
virgin-burner 1 #18 February 16, 2011 you dont know about my past weekend do you? the one broke up, two days later i was in the next.. for four days. i'd say i'm getting up to speed.. “Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #19 February 16, 2011 QuoteYour post adequately makes my point. People almost never become believers through intellectual debate. God requires obedience and faith. You must surrender your ego to God to receive the evidence your require. No... That is what YOU required to receive your evidence. What others required to receive theirs was to seek it AND find someone who knew how to explain it. Assuming that the experiences of others will be identical to yours is the height of ego, and the reason that believers almost never adequately debate those who require intellectual debate, which does a disservice to both the intellectuals and to God, and makes the believers come off as morons because they appear to fail to understand what they profess to believe. There are some extremely educated Christian scholars. The problem is that they get drowned out by a lot of the idiots that manage to get themselves on television and wander around handing out tracts. Those folks may reach some people, but when faced with an intellectual, they're clueless, and when questioned in front of others, can do far more harm than good because they lack the simple ability to articulate their beliefs. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
virgin-burner 1 #20 February 16, 2011 that is because, as you mentioned, they're morons..“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RonD1120 59 #21 February 16, 2011 QuoteQuoteYour post adequately makes my point. People almost never become believers through intellectual debate. God requires obedience and faith. You must surrender your ego to God to receive the evidence your require. No... That is what YOU required to receive your evidence. What others required to receive theirs was to seek it AND find someone who knew how to explain it. Assuming that the experiences of others will be identical to yours is the height of ego, and the reason that believers almost never adequately debate those who require intellectual debate, which does a disservice to both the intellectuals and to God, and makes the believers come off as morons because they appear to fail to understand what they profess to believe. There are some extremely educated Christian scholars. The problem is that they get drowned out by a lot of the idiots that manage to get themselves on television and wander around handing out tracts. Those folks may reach some people, but when faced with an intellectual, they're clueless, and when questioned in front of others, can do far more harm than good because they lack the simple ability to articulate their beliefs. Romans 10:9 (King James Version) 9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. Romans 10:13 (King James Version) 13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. Before you can be saved, you must admit to yourself you are lost. Self must die first. Sorrow must be felt. Suggest William Wilson, MD, Former Director of Psychiatry, Duke University c.1983, as a reference.Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
virgin-burner 1 #22 February 16, 2011 tell that stuff to my friend that suffered cervical cancer at age 25 and got diagnosed with bipolar disorder two years later, that USED to be a jesusfreak.. oh, and i dont think your MD-reference was in context of your beliefs, but that's how you always do it, dont you!? “Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RonD1120 59 #23 February 16, 2011 Quote tell that stuff to my friend that suffered cervical cancer at age 25 and got diagnosed with bipolar disorder two years later, that USED to be a jesusfreak.. oh, and i dont think your MD-reference was in context of your beliefs, but that's how you always do it, dont you!? "God does not give us overcoming life; He gives us life as we overcome." ~Oswald Chambers The MD reference is very much in context.Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
virgin-burner 1 #24 February 16, 2011 Quote Quote tell that stuff to my friend that suffered cervical cancer at age 25 and got diagnosed with bipolar disorder two years later, that USED to be a jesusfreak.. oh, and i dont think your MD-reference was in context of your beliefs, but that's how you always do it, dont you!? "God does not give us overcoming life; He gives us life as we overcome." ~Oswald Chambers The MD reference is very much in context. you got all answers for stuff nobody wants know, but if somebody actually wants an answer; you have nothing to offer. how a happy, warm fuzzy feeling you must have in your own little world..“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RonD1120 59 #25 February 16, 2011 Quote you got all answers for stuff nobody wants know, but if somebody actually wants an answer; you have nothing to offer. how a happy, warm fuzzy feeling you must have in your own little world.. Romans 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day. Isaiah 61:10 I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels.Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
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