US Soldiers punished for not Attending Christian Concert

[tkhayes 138]

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1Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.

so Obama is/was established by God? And then all the right wing christians that hate his guts and want him out are defying God's 'orders'

I don't know about you, but that is what I am reading.

I don't know about you, but that is about the most fucked up thing I have read in this thread - besides that part about you taking out your enemy with 'God's comfort'

[RonD1120 58]

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1Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.

so Obama is/was established by God? And then all the right wing christians that hate his guts and want him out are defying God's 'orders'

I don't know about you, but that is what I am reading.

I don't know about you, but that is about the most fucked up thing I have read in this thread - besides that part about you taking out your enemy with 'God's comfort'

Christians and military personnel of all faiths must respect the office of POTUS.

When I was in the military I reported to officers that I did not like very well. I still had to follow their orders.

While in office, BHO must be respected. In 2012 he will be replaced. His replacement may or may not be more capable or well liked.

The government is established by God as necessary for social order. The Christian depends on God the Father through Jesus Christ regardless of who is employed or elected to government office.

Your reply represents that level of adolescent thinking that is so frustrating.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[tkhayes 138]

your reply represents that level of archaic thinking that is so frustrating....

even suggesting that God selects government......oh never mind - I am arguing with fanatics. Can't change their mind and they won't change the subject

[Skwrl 56]

I would point out a few things.

First, the Epistle of Romans was written by Paul. It is not one of the Gospels; it doesn't recount the words of Jesus - it was Paul's letter to the church in Rome in anticipation of his visit. Last I checked, Christians were followers of and believers in Christ, not Paul. So I ask again: where in Christ's teachings is there any support for war.

But let's put aside that Paul/Christ distinction and focus on your quote.

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"1Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God."

Please at least continue the quote to give it more context:

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Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.

Last I checked, we in the US have no obligation to join the military. It is currently a choice. NOT joining the military is therefore not a rebellion against authority. So therefore, I don't think you can, in good conscience, say "Well, I made a choice, and then POTUS told me to kill, and therefore in this case POTUS's rules trump Christ's teachings..." Romans 13 doesn't give you a "get out of jail free" card if "the authority" has rules that contradict Christ's teachings.

I would suspect that if you thought about that for a moment, you'd agree. (Let me give you a simple example to prove the point: take for example a place where Christianity is declared illegal: reading Romans 13 in the way you do, that would mean that you think that Christ's teachings in that place would mean that you must not believe in Christ. Clearly that can't be the case, no?)

Bottom line: Christ's teachings are pretty clear that the rule of God - and the commandment to love your fellow man (and not shoot him) - trump the rule of secular authority. [For better commentary on that, read Augustine.]

Additionally, keep reading Romans 13, Ron:

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Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellow man has fulfilled the law. The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet," and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself." Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law."

I would hope that you'd understand that "neighbor" in this context doesn't mean "guy who lives next door to me", but means "fellow man".

Then again, I can't tell with a lot of the stuff you post.

Skwrl Productions - Wingsuit Photography

Northeast Bird School - Chief Logistics Guy and Video Dork

[Skwrl 56]

And while I was poking around on the subject and re-reading my Hugo Grotius, I came across the wonderful summation of the point, written by a Baptist preacher in 1838 in an issue of The Christian Review:

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The war spirit is so wrought into the texture of governments, and the habits of national thinking, and even into our very festivals and pomps, that its occasional recurrence is deemed a matter of unavoidable necessity.

War "contradicts the genius and intention of Christianity," "sets at nought the example of Jesus," and "is inconsistent not only with the general structure and nature of Christianity and the example of Jesus, as it violates all the express precepts of the New Testament.

Christianity requires us to seek to amend the condition of man. But war cannot do this. The world is no better for all the wars of five thousand years. Christianity, if it prevailed, would make the earth a paradise. War, where it prevails, makes it a slaughter-house, a den of thieves, a brothel, a hell. Christianity cancels the laws of retaliation. War is based upon that very principle. Christianity is the remedy for all human woes. War produces every woe known to man.

The causes of war, as well as war itself, are contrary to the gospel. It originates in the worst passions and the worst aims. We may always trace it to the thirst of revenge, the acquisition of territory, the monopoly of commerce, the quarrels of kings, the intrigues of ministers, the coercion of religious opinion, the acquisition of disputed crowns, or some other source, equally culpable; but never has any war, devised by man, been founded on holy tempers and Christian principles.

I'd say that it's inherently contradictory to be pro-Christ and pro-war. Which are you, Ron?

Skwrl Productions - Wingsuit Photography

Northeast Bird School - Chief Logistics Guy and Video Dork

[jakee 1,257]

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The government is established by God as necessary for social order. The Christian depends on God the Father through Jesus Christ regardless of who is employed or elected to government office.

What about the government in Saudi Arabia? What about the government in Iran? What about the Taliban government in Afghanistan? If you live under a government that orders you to deny Jesus and worship another god is it biblically correct for you to obey?

What if you're pulled into the army of a tin-pot warlord in central africa and you're ordered to burn a village, kill the men and rape the women - is it biblically right to obey the order?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Skwrl 56]

Oh, and one other thing - you keep calling arguments against you "adolescent".

Keep in mind, in doing so, you're saying that the (pretty obvious) conclusions reached by theologians from Augustine to John Yoder are "adolescent". Rather than being dismissive, how about addressing the theological arguments that are being made, as opposed to just calling them a name you don't like.

Or else I'll assume by "adolescent", you mean smart and well reasoned.

Skwrl Productions - Wingsuit Photography

Northeast Bird School - Chief Logistics Guy and Video Dork

[RonD1120 58]

First, Romans written by Paul is accepted as Christian teaching in the New Testament.

Second, by your reasoning a Christian should never volunteer for military service to America. I do not agree with that position.

Third, by adolescent, I mean circular arguing. For example, teenager asks why? Adult answers, because.... Teenage asks why? We have some in this forum that have turned that tactic into an art form. They truly believe they are intelligent in their manifest rebellion.

I am a Christian, a patriotic nationalistic Conservative/Libertarian American. I do not feel guilty.

We have Christian Chaplains in the military. The ones I have met do not feel guilty either.

Bottom line, I do not know what you are trying to prove.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[kallend 1,635]

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Third, by adolescent, I mean circular arguing.

Like quoting the Bible to support your beliefs.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[RonD1120 58]

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Third, by adolescent, I mean circular arguing.

Like quoting the Bible to support your beliefs.

It works.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[Skwrl 56]

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First, Romans written by Paul is accepted as Christian teaching in the New Testament.

I think I made clear that the distinction wasn't important to my point. So for the purpose of this discussion, I'll say "agreed."

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Second, by your reasoning a Christian should never volunteer for military service to America. I do not agree with that position.

This is the heart of the matter, Ron. You say "you don't believe." On what authority? You're not citing scripture. You're not pointing to anything Jesus said. Your quote from Romans doesn't support what you said. You're just saying, in effect, 'because I said so' (note that I'm not attempting to quote you here; it's a paraphrasing). I'm asking for theological consistency, though - or at least no hypocrisy.

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Bottom line, I do not know what you are trying to prove.

I'll break it down to the bits: you can tell me which parts you disagree with.

1. A Christian should follow the teachings of Christ.
2. The teachings of Christ are incompatible with war.
3. Therefore, being pro-war poses a major theological problem for those who claim to be followers of Christ.

Skwrl Productions - Wingsuit Photography

Northeast Bird School - Chief Logistics Guy and Video Dork

[RonD1120 58]

The following is my reply in another thread.


From my study of the Word, experience and understanding over the last 30 years I have concluded, in the macro or world wide sense there will be no peace until Jesus returns. That level of conflict exists as a fact of life.

It is certainly noble to seek a world without war but it will not be attainable until Jesus establishes His worldly throne.

His throne now is spiritual.

On the micro or individual level. The Bible clearly indicates that accepting Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior will create the possibility of conflict in your immediate circle of human interaction i.e., family, friends, workplace, etc.

However, when you accept Jesus you receive the gift of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. This is known as being Born Again.

The Holy Spirit becomes the small, still, quiet voice of guidance that leads you into a closer relationship with God the Father through Jesus. That guidance and growing relationship manifests peace of mind.

God does not remove the conflict. He gives grace, guidance and reassurance to get through it.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[Skwrl 56]

This boggles the mind...

Another wonderful quote:

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Jesus taught His followers not to fight back against evil, but to love their enemies. The Bible says that when two disciples urged revenge on villages that had refused them hospitality, Jesus rebuked them, saying that He had come “to save men’s lives, not to destroy them.” At the scene of His arrest in the Garden, when one of His defenders cut off an attacker’s ear, Jesus disarmed the defender and healed the ear. Questioned by the Roman governor on His alleged claim to kingship, He disowned armed defense of any such claim because His “kingdom was not of this world.” Finally, when foes had crucified Him, He prayed from the cross, “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.” His followers maintained the unwavering peaceableness of His witness for over two centuries, again and again choosing martyrdom over a recourse to arms.

Because Jesus accepted torture and death rather than protect Himself by force, it should come as no surprise that His disciples taught, not arts of self-defense, but the acceptance of all suffering as experience knowingly permitted by a trustworthy God who will one day “wipe away all tears from our eyes.” And so the living Christ teaches us today – to accept suffering when it can’t be avoided, but without seeking to inflict injury in return. “I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves,” He instructs: “Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.”

Today a great lie goes masquerading in Christ’s robes. It appears wherever apologists for war, or lethal injection, or lying, or ravaging the earth, or profiteering off human weakness, seek to persuade us that these evils are O.K. for Christians to take part in. How easily they fool us! We’re all too eager to imagine God smiling on all the old, familiar ways that the world does things: think how our ancestors bought into slavery, genocide, the whipping of children and the subjugation of women! Or we fancy God blessing the new ways that the experts say are now necessary: If nuclear weapons, disinformation, torture of detainees, and use of the products of unfree labor are necessary in this modern world, how could Christ fault Christians for participating in a necessary system?

This makes it terribly important for followers of Christ to stand against falsifications of Christ’s gospel message of love toward all – a message that can’t be maintained by anyone armed to kill. Neither is it credible to many a non-Christian who, surveying Christian history, looks on its record of slaughter – crusade, inquisition, witch-hunt, massacre, pogrom. How did we Christians become such hypocrites?

So you can see why I find your "researched position completely baffling.

I can also see that trying to convince you otherwise is futile. I ask you to consider what I wrote, though.

Peace.

Skwrl Productions - Wingsuit Photography

Northeast Bird School - Chief Logistics Guy and Video Dork

[RonD1120 58]

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I'll break it down to the bits: you can tell me which parts you disagree with.

1. A Christian should follow the teachings of Christ.
2. The teachings of Christ are incompatible with war.
3. Therefore, being pro-war poses a major theological problem for those who claim to be followers of Christ.

A Christian should follow the guidance of the Holy Spirit through praying, fasting and studying The Word.

The teachings of Christ are not incompatible with war. The Bible clearly indicates that war will be present until the Battle of Armageddon.

I am not pro-war. I am pro-American, pro-military and pro-law enforcement. The military is required as a deterrent to hostile forces.

Sometimes people must die for the safety and protection of others. Sometimes the determination of who those people are is above my pay grade. At those times, I will follow the orders of my superiors or I will make an immediate decision based on my or my family's safety.

I am not willing to renounce my faith, my country or my patriotism.

I just don't think I have anything else to add. I am comfortable with my position.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[mnealtx 0]

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so Obama is/was established by God?

No, the Dems just think he *is* God.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Skwrl 56]

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A Christian should follow the guidance of the Holy Spirit through praying, fasting and studying The Word.

Some (e.g., Catholics) say that good deeds are necessary for salvation as well, but OK, I'll ignore that (I'm not Catholic; I have no dog in that hunt, but more than a billion Christians would disagree... Unless you're saying Catholics aren't true Christians, of course...)

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The Bible clearly indicates that war will be present until the Battle of Armageddon.

And so will theft... So am I justified in stealing now? Awesome. I saw a really neat looking sports car down the road...

Ron, saying that Christ is OK will war is simply ignoring what Christ said. If you want to do that, cool by me. But don't pretend that you're following Christ's Word (I mean his preachings, not the Logos you are so fixated on).

Skwrl Productions - Wingsuit Photography

Northeast Bird School - Chief Logistics Guy and Video Dork

[turtlespeed 212]

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your reply represents that level of archaic thinking that is so frustrating....

even suggesting that God selects government......oh never mind - I am arguing with fanatics. Can't change their mind and they won't change the subject

I'll take archaic over adolescent any day of the week.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun