Lucky... 0 #51 June 27, 2010 QuoteYou have got to be joking. Unfortunately, life is just not that cut-n-dry. We have associated economic conditions with the value of a president but in reality, they have little control over un/employment rates. They have indirect control over unemployment rates, but direct control over unemployment compensation. They have direct control over many jobs bills and taxation, etc. Let's be real, the economy is far more than just employment and teh rpes has a lot of control over the entire economy. QuoteClinton enjoyed a strong economy, not because of anything he did, but because the economic cycle went up. Right, the tax increase didn't increase government tax receipts, bringing a 12-year running 250B/yr deficit to a halt and balancing the budget, ending the debt increase. I get it that you want to act as tho it's all coincidence since your party has fukced it all up, that's typical of a person who's side is responsible. QuoteThere are ways to kill an economy, however. Tax the crap out of everything to drive up prices/costs; regulate the hell out of everything to slow down investment/production/consumption; force banks to make bad loans to unqualifed people; or spend every nickle in the Treasury until there is nothing more to spend and the good folks in China refuse to buy your debt. It makes a nice bumper sticker, but in good Reagan neo-con fashion, you have yet to detail a time in history where just that happened. In fact, when controls have been relaxed and taxes lowered, e.g. Reagan and GWB, things went to hell; accumulatively the worst economic times in the US. So if you could please can your theory and show me applicational examples, I would love it, but don't expect it - just more trickle-down rhetoric theory. QuoteFor you Obamatrons--Larry Summers views on unemployment prior to becoming Obama's chief econ advisor. According to Summers, 2 government actions lead to increased unemployment: welfare spending and unemployment insurance. http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/Unemployment.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Summers Summers is a crook. Summers has recently come under fire for accepting perks from Citigroup, including free rides on its corporate jet in 2008.[54] According to the Wall Street Journal, Larry Summers called Chris Dodd asking him to remove caps on executive pay at firms that have received stimulus money, including Citigroup.[55] On April 3, 2009 Summers came under renewed criticism after it was disclosed that he was paid millions of dollars the previous year by companies which he now has influence over as a public servant. He earned $5 million from the hedge fund D. E. Shaw, and collected $2.7 million in speaking fees from Wall Street companies that received government bailout money.[56] In early April 2010, Joshua Green reported that Summers is frustrated with his position at the NEC and upset that he was not chosen to replace Ben Bernanke as head of the Federal Reserve. It is seen as likely that Summers could leave the post soon.[57] ...and is on the way out. If Obama loved him so much, why did he put Bernanke as head of the Fed Res? From your article: -- Unemployment was a serious economic problem in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries prior to the welfare state and widespread unionization. Unemployment then, as now, was closely linked to general macroeconomic conditions. -- The great depression, when unemployment in the United States reached 25 percent, is the classic example of the damage that collapses in credit can do. Since then, most economists have agreed that cyclical fluctuations in unemployment are caused by changes in the demand for labor, not by changes in workers’ desires to work, and that unemployment in recessions is involuntary. Looks to me like He's saying credit issues and demand issues are key to unemployment. Sad when your own article rejects your point. At least I can say a conservative actually posted a citation fro once. QuoteWhat is that cliche I hear? National bankruptcy? Yes, courtesy of Fascist Ronnie and G "dumbshit" Dumbya. Hillarious to read you act as if the economy is random, then try to assign blame to Clinton when his presidency yielded the greatest growth ever while under tax increases and more controls. Make sense. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 212 #52 June 27, 2010 Quote The Scumlipublicans Does calling people names make you feel better about yourself? Do you actually think anyone is going to take you seriously with this limited vocabulary that you use? Although it does tell everyone a lot about you and your thinking.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #53 June 27, 2010 Quote Quote The Scumlipublicans Does calling people names make you feel better about yourself? Do you actually think anyone is going to take you seriously with this limited vocabulary that you use? Although it does tell everyone a lot about you and your thinking. When I was learning to teach I learned that to be an effective teacher one had to identify the lowest common denominator so that the lesser minds would not be left behind. With the incessant denigration of so called elitists by the lesser minds here I applaud his realization of the audience he is posting to and utilizing the English language in such a way to foster understanding of the point he is trying to make with all the Joe the Plumber all too common conservatives here. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 212 #54 June 27, 2010 Quote . . . I applaud . . . Yep - and you are viewed in much the same way.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #55 June 27, 2010 Quote Quote . . . I applaud . . . Yep - and you are viewed in much the same way. But is does get SOOOO much attention from you and the run of the mill rePUBIClowns. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 212 #56 June 27, 2010 Quote Quote Quote . . . I applaud . . . Yep - and you are viewed in much the same way. But is does get SOOOO much attention from you and the run of the mill rePUBIClowns. No - there is just nothing better to do at the moment.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #57 June 27, 2010 Quote Quote Quote Quote . . . I applaud . . . Yep - and you are viewed in much the same way. But is does get SOOOO much attention from you and the run of the mill rePUBIClowns. No - there is just nothing better to do at the moment. I do so enjoy all the huffing and puffing..... you guys do.... VERY entertaining. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 212 #58 June 27, 2010 Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote . . . I applaud . . . Yep - and you are viewed in much the same way. But is does get SOOOO much attention from you and the run of the mill rePUBIClowns. No - there is just nothing better to do at the moment. I do so enjoy all the huffing and puffing..... you guys do.... VERY entertaining. Is it us doing the whole "Fee Fi Fo" thing? . . . Hmmmm - Me thinks not.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,649 #59 June 27, 2010 Quote Quote Quote I don't recall your outrage when Bush was gushing money out of the national treasury during the boom time before his recession hit, when he should have been saving a surplus handed to him by his predecessor. ___________________________________________________ this is why Bush's approval rating was so low.. I hated the way he charged the war off to the deficit. Now Obama makes him look frugal. People should spend more time studying Keynes and less time on the Voodoo economists. ______________________________________________ you have to be joking..John Keynes believed that the failure to provide full employment and the arbitrary and inequitable distribution of wealth and incomes were the outstanding faults in the economic system. this guy is an elitist fool. and Obama is following his ways. talk about voodoo economics.Keynes is looking smarter and smarter as the outcomes of post Keynsean theories devastate the world's economies. And "Voodoo Economics" was George H.W. Bush's desription of Reaganism, since your history seems to be rather dismal.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #60 June 27, 2010 Quote - 2 wars gotten into illegitimately Are you trying to claim Afghanistan is also a 'illegitimate' war? The one that the Democrats have campaigned on as the 'good' war, as opposed to the 'bad' war in Iraq that they did indeed approve? I'll try giving you the same lesson I did to the Muslims never in America guy: if you have good evidence, don't dilute and pollute it with stupidity. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #61 June 27, 2010 Quote Quote The Scumlipublicans Does calling people names make you feel better about yourself? Do you actually think anyone is going to take you seriously with this limited vocabulary that you use? Although it does tell everyone a lot about you and your thinking. I think this is the 2nd time you've strawmaned out rather than actually answering the issue; we get you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #62 June 27, 2010 Quote Quote Quote The Scumlipublicans Does calling people names make you feel better about yourself? Do you actually think anyone is going to take you seriously with this limited vocabulary that you use? Although it does tell everyone a lot about you and your thinking. When I was learning to teach I learned that to be an effective teacher one had to identify the lowest common denominator so that the lesser minds would not be left behind. With the incessant denigration of so called elitists by the lesser minds here I applaud his realization of the audience he is posting to and utilizing the English language in such a way to foster understanding of the point he is trying to make with all the Joe the Plumber all too common conservatives here. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #63 June 27, 2010 Quote Quote Quote Quote . . . I applaud . . . Yep - and you are viewed in much the same way. But is does get SOOOO much attention from you and the run of the mill rePUBIClowns. No - there is just nothing better to do at the moment. You could address this issue: http://www.pollingreport.com/BushJob.htm Reasons: - economic failure - Katrina mess he ignored for a week - unemployment mess - 2 wars gotten into illegitimately - killing stem cell research funding - Commuting Scooter Libby - etc Or address the post about Summers and taxes just a couple above. In all seriousness, when you guys get hurt feelings over silly names, it's just an escape from addressing issues that you really don't want to address. As much as you want it to be, the worst times have come under harsh tax cuts: - Great Depression - Great Recession - Reagan's 80's Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #64 June 27, 2010 QuoteQuote - 2 wars gotten into illegitimately Are you trying to claim Afghanistan is also a 'illegitimate' war? The one that the Democrats have campaigned on as the 'good' war, as opposed to the 'bad' war in Iraq that they did indeed approve? I'll try giving you the same lesson I did to the Muslims never in America guy: if you have good evidence, don't dilute and pollute it with stupidity. Don't get hurt feelings and start calling people stupid because you don't have the cooth to address an issue. Yes, I think AFG is illegitimate. GWB ramped it up as with the initiation of Iraq. It's illegitimate because you're fighting an ideology, not a country. See if you try to live up to your self-appointed pseudo immage of a calm, objective moderate. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaVinci 0 #65 June 27, 2010 QuoteThe Scumlipublicans.... Quit reading after the childish BS started. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaVinci 0 #66 June 27, 2010 QuoteHere's some more free education. Got my education in University... Not from some insulting person on the internet. Quoteinto your dad's term(s). Childish insults the best you can do? It sure seems that way. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #67 June 27, 2010 Quote Yes, I think AFG is illegitimate. GWB ramped it up as with the initiation of Iraq. It's illegitimate because you're fighting an ideology, not a country. Other than the pacifists, who don't even believe in self defense, you're in quite the minority here. Few believe that hunting Bin Laden is illegitimate. Quote See if you try to live up to your self-appointed pseudo immage of a calm, objective moderate. The truth isn't leftist or moderate or RW, it merely is reality. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
winsor 187 #68 June 28, 2010 If you like freefall, you'll LOVE this "recovery." http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/ambroseevans_pritchard/7857595/RBS-tells-clients-to-prepare-for-monster-money-printing-by-the-Federal-Reserve.html Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
winsor 187 #69 June 28, 2010 I think this guy is an optimist. NYTimes Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #70 June 28, 2010 Good to see this forum is still just cable news talking points spread thin. The more things change, the more they stay the same._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Profman 0 #71 June 28, 2010 QuoteQuoteYou have got to be joking. Unfortunately, life is just not that cut-n-dry. We have associated economic conditions with the value of a president but in reality, they have little control over un/employment rates. They have indirect control over unemployment rates, but direct control over unemployment compensation. They have direct control over many jobs bills and taxation, etc. ********How much "indirect" control? The US economy is huge, massive, and does not respond in a 1:1 input/output manner. It is a highly complex, dynamic, emergent system. The best they can do is play in the margins. Well, unless you talking about taxation. Let's be real, the economy is far more than just employment and teh rpes has a lot of control over the entire economy. QuoteClinton enjoyed a strong economy, not because of anything he did, but because the economic cycle went up. Right, the tax increase didn't increase government tax receipts, bringing a 12-year running 250B/yr deficit to a halt and balancing the budget, ending the debt increase. I get it that you want to act as tho it's all coincidence since your party has fukced it all up, that's typical of a person who's side is responsible. ****Chill out. I voted for Clinton and WAS a liberal during his term. You also have to remember there was a small thing called the fall of the Soviet Union. When that happened, we downsized our armed forces and enjoyed a "peace dividend" that help us enjoy a balanced budget. By the way, the Republicans were in charge of Congress then :) QuoteThere are ways to kill an economy, however. Tax the crap out of everything to drive up prices/costs; regulate the hell out of everything to slow down investment/production/consumption; force banks to make bad loans to unqualifed people; or spend every nickle in the Treasury until there is nothing more to spend and the good folks in China refuse to buy your debt. It makes a nice bumper sticker, but in good Reagan neo-con fashion, you have yet to detail a time in history where just that happened. In fact, when controls have been relaxed and taxes lowered, e.g. Reagan and GWB, things went to hell; accumulatively the worst economic times in the US. So if you could please can your theory and show me applicational examples, I would love it, but don't expect it - just more trickle-down rhetoric theory. **I think you are spitting in the wind and then getting pissed because your getting wet. Reasonable controls on economic transactions and certain regulations on business are necessary. Problems emerge when we try to control too much (see the mess from the recent housing bubble where the government incentivized making bad loans) or when we turn a blind eye to those who wish to deny basic economic laws (again, see the recent housing bubble mess). QuoteFor you Obamatrons--Larry Summers views on unemployment prior to becoming Obama's chief econ advisor. According to Summers, 2 government actions lead to increased unemployment: welfare spending and unemployment insurance. http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/Unemployment.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Summers Summers is a crook. Summers has recently come under fire for accepting perks from Citigroup, including free rides on its corporate jet in 2008.[54] According to the Wall Street Journal, Larry Summers called Chris Dodd asking him to remove caps on executive pay at firms that have received stimulus money, including Citigroup.[55] On April 3, 2009 Summers came under renewed criticism after it was disclosed that he was paid millions of dollars the previous year by companies which he now has influence over as a public servant. He earned $5 million from the hedge fund D. E. Shaw, and collected $2.7 million in speaking fees from Wall Street companies that received government bailout money.[56] In early April 2010, Joshua Green reported that Summers is frustrated with his position at the NEC and upset that he was not chosen to replace Ben Bernanke as head of the Federal Reserve. It is seen as likely that Summers could leave the post soon.[57] ...and is on the way out. If Obama loved him so much, why did he put Bernanke as head of the Fed Res? *****Neither of us know the relationship Obama has with Summers or Bernanke. However, if you are going to criticize the Repubs for having a close relationship with business, you better get ready to slam Obama. For all of his populist rhetoric and business-bashing, he and his staff have very close relations with AIG and Goldman Sachs, not to mention the unions and other interests. From your article: -- Unemployment was a serious economic problem in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries prior to the welfare state and widespread unionization. Unemployment then, as now, was closely linked to general macroeconomic conditions. -- The great depression, when unemployment in the United States reached 25 percent, is the classic example of the damage that collapses in credit can do. Since then, most economists have agreed that cyclical fluctuations in unemployment are caused by changes in the demand for labor, not by changes in workers’ desires to work, and that unemployment in recessions is involuntary. Looks to me like He's saying credit issues and demand issues are key to unemployment. Sad when your own article rejects your point. At least I can say a conservative actually posted a citation fro once. *****Read again my friend. Summers also makes the point, elsewhere, that FDR's policies actually prolonged the depression. QuoteWhat is that cliche I hear? National bankruptcy? Yes, courtesy of Fascist Ronnie and G "dumbshit" Dumbya. Hillarious to read you act as if the economy is random, then try to assign blame to Clinton when his presidency yielded the greatest growth ever while under tax increases and more controls. Make sense. You must harbor some strong feelings because they interferred with your assessment of my post. I did not lay any blame on Clinton, nor am I a neocon, nor do I believe that the economy should be without some regulation. And by Facist, do you mean the idea that government should control every aspect of our lives? Or that government is more important than the individual? There is a good book out on the topic called "Liberal Facism." Give it a read. It may suprise you.The dangers of life are infinite, and among them is safety. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #72 June 28, 2010 Quote Quote Quote Very few problems are solved by denying they exist. You still denying that the last recession started under Clinton? The previous recession started March 2001, when Bush was president. No recessions started during the 8 years of the Clinton presidency. www.nber.org/cycles.html 4 of the last 5 recessions started during Republican administrations. Graphs are always good http://i49.tinypic.com/zybmlt.gif_________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #73 June 28, 2010 Quote Graphs are always good http://i49.tinypic.com/zybmlt.gif whee bit of spin (read dishonesty) here. It shows an ever growing deficit from the Bush era tax cuts. Nearly all of those expire this year or next unless extended. When both McCain and Obama campaigned on their tax cut plans, it was based on the notion they would expire. Any tax cuts in 2018 are coming from current or future government leaders. Same for deficits from wars in Iraq, Afghanistan. Shouldn't we be basically done by next year, and certainly by the 2012 election? And while this graph shows "Recovery Measures" disappearing into nothing, it's quite a leap to presume there won't be more stimulu-pork packages coming, when they're already being proposed. One way they're being a bit sneakier is using returned TARP money. Basically they've booked the debt in 2009 and now are treating it as free money. A more honest accounting would list TARP as costing much less last year, and any new debt for new purposes would go under recovery measures. And why is the economic downturn not only continuing the rest of the decade, but getting worse again towards the end of the decade? Are they programming in the next cycle? If so, it's no longer a downturn. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaVinci 0 #74 June 28, 2010 QuoteGood to see this forum is still just cable news talking points spread thin. And you are helping by?!?!?!?!?!!?!? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
