Arizona’s struggle against illegal immigration

[aphid 0]

I am curious about the potential real-life impact of the legislation. And until proven differently, I’d like to assume that racial profiling will not happen in upholding the legislation. Having said that, I’ll present a different scenario, albeit a serious one.

AZ is the winter destination of an enormous number of retired Canadians. Some call us “snowbirds”, some call us less-polite names. Regardless, Canada is a (rare) visa-exempt nation under federal US Immigration policy.

In simple terms, Canadians are allowed to enter the US for periods of up to 6 months without a “visa” that most other nationalities are required to possess.

Therefore, as Canadians enjoy golf, play bridge, shop at WallyWorld, or skydive & ride Harley’s as in my case, we have no documents to attest we are legally in the USA. Our driver’s licenses, birth certificates, social insurance numbers, provincial medical cards, and passports all point to the fact we are indeed not American.

So, Johnny, Jill, Inderjit or Jose (yes, we are a multi-cultural society too) Canuck gets pulled over for a speeding ticket and is asked to prove they are in the country legally. (Keep in mind that any traveller with a modicum of common-sense and experience does not carry their passport during their day-to-day activities to prevent loss or theft).

Parked now on the side of the I-10, dealing with a pretty regular highway patrol officer, just how do you think that would play out? I’d like to hear from somebody in law-enforcement in AZ weigh in on this... I’m sure there are some that hang out here on DZ.com.

And to further muddy the water, in my home country, I never carry my birth certificate, my social insurance card, or such. They’re all away in my safety deposit box with any other important documents. So, I assume some Americans don’t carry theirs either.

In that case, how will an American citizen be able to establish their proof of legitimacy on the side of a similar highway?

John

[Amazon 7]

U Vill Cary Uhr papehrs ot ahl tihmes JAH

[mnealtx 0]

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U Vill Cary Uhr papehrs nationale Ausweiskarte ot ahl tihmes JAH

Fixed that for you.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[quade 3]

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U Vill Cary Uhr papehrs nationale Ausweiskarte ot ahl tihmes JAH

Fixed that for you.

Now, now, let's not be provincial. They were also used in fascist Italy.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[kelpdiver 2]

hey, you can get two vacation destinations for the price of one! Just ask to be deported to the nicer spots in Mexico.

[aphid 0]

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hey, you can get two vacation destinations for the price of one! Just ask to be deported to the nicer spots in Mexico.

Tell that to the blue-hairs who own a $1M luxury home, their Lexus equipped with AZ plates in the driveway in Scottsdale. And they've done it for, say, 10 years or more? (These folks do exist)

I understand the facetious responses, but I had hoped for information or reasoned discourse.

[quade 3]

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I understand the facetious responses, but I had hoped for information or reasoned discourse.

How does a person have a reasoned discourse about an unreasonable subject?

[scarcasm]
Since its inception no US citizen has ever been required to carry "papers." Well, at least the white ones. You know, the ones that look like "us." Freed slaves, sure. People that looked asian during WWII, sure. But not, you know, "us" normal people.

That's all Arizona is trying to do, keep a tab on people that aren't like, "us." So what if a few actual US citizens get hassled? Isn't it worth it to know that the different people will be kept in check and sent packing?

I mean, that's a small price to pay to know they won't be clogging up our social services. Come on; it's just a little personal freedom, right? We can afford to do that to marginally lower taxes, can't we? And think of the employment rate. Why as soon as all the damn illegals are gone, all 30 million of them, we'll have plenty of work for real Americans. 30 million, FFS! Hitler didn't have that many to deal with, but he found a solution . . . finally . . . didn't he?

Isn't it worth carrying around your documents and displaying them to the police at a moments notice to do that? So you forget one time and you end up in jail, big deal. What's to complain about except the anal rape?
[/scarcasm]

Sorry, making fun of idiots is what I do best. The irony is that some of these people are the same ones that belong to The Tea Party and like this quote;

"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety deserve neither Liberty nor Safety" -- Benjamin Franklin

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[diablopilot 2]

I really don't think anyone who is bitching about this law has read it.

1) It simply gives AZ officials the power to enforce the laws that Federal officers haven't been.

2) It doesn't permit officials to simply "check your papers", only to confirm legal status when legally verifying identification. I.e. Traffic stop, legal detention, etc.

3) I always carry my passport on my person when I travel outside the States. It's the only place I think it's secure. In it are stamps that are DATED ENTRY VISAS for my visits to various countries, and I'm pretty sure you get the same as a Canadian National when you cross into the States, and there is you proof of legal status.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[aphid 0]

Yes, our passports are date-stamped. But, as I said earlier, I and most international travelers I know, do not actively carry our passports for the reasons I articulated in my original post.

Perhaps then, the answer is to carry a passport at all times?

Although it does fly in the face of what many countries Foreign Affairs offices recommend. (I don't know what the US State Department suggests for Americans when they travel).

[diablopilot 2]

Maybe the answer is to carry legal documentation anytime you are legally required to.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[billvon 2,470]

>Maybe the answer is to carry legal documentation anytime you are legally required to.

Do you carry it when you're home?

[diablopilot 2]

No, but then I'm not legally required to, nor am I if I decide to go for a walk.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[billvon 2,470]

>No, but then I'm not legally required to . . .

??? If you are pulled over for a traffic ticket, and asked to prove your citizenship, how will you? Keep in mind that the US government recognizes these as primary proof of citizenship:

========
# Previously issued, undamaged US passport
# Certified birth certificate issued by the city, county or state of birth
# Consular Report of Birth (of U.S. citizen) Abroad or Certification of Birth
# Naturalization Certificate
# Certificate of Citizenship
=========

(The other alternative is for the police to hold you until you can prove it through one of the above methods, so I guess if you'd prefer that, that would be fine.)

[quade 3]

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No, but then I'm not legally required to, nor am I if I decide to go for a walk.

Uh huh. So let's say you're walking past Home Depot and a friend of yours rolls by in a pick-up truck. Feel safe waving to him?

I mean, you DID read the law; right?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[DSE 3]

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[scarcasm]
Since its inception no US citizen has ever been required to carry "papers." Well, at least the white ones. You know, the ones that look like "us." Freed slaves, sure. People that looked asian during WWII, sure. But not, you know, "us" normal people.

Actually, indigenous/Native/Aboriginal/American Indian people are required not only by the Bureau of Indian Affairs to carry pedigree/enrollment cards, but several nations require that the card be "accessible" for services.
But heck...Native people finally were allowed to vote in 1948...

this legislation is a huge deal for Native people that don't have tribal ID, drivers licenses, or other papers due to a variety of circumstances. There is an irony in the possibility of a Native American being deported to....where?

[quade 3]

Thanks for the heads up. I'll have to include that if I write about it anywhere else. I just banged that out off the top of my head.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[DSE 3]

I have a brother who spends a good deal of his time face down on couches, streets, where ever. The last time he was arrested for public intox just outside of PHX, he had no ID of any kind. His story isn't terribly unique.
He's dark skinned, speaks English with an accent, has no papers, and several family members have no phones.

So...where do they send him?

While you're bangin' out those responses, realize that indigenous people were not citizens of this country until 1924(?) and didn't have the right to vote until 1948.

The US doesn't have a great track record when it comes to race relations.

That said, I also fully understand why Arizona is desperate to do something (although I can't agree with this legislation) must be done. If you think that the crime in Perris or similar areas is bad.... The cost of housing, feeding, processing, investigating, maintaining the overwhelmingly Latin number of criminals is a monstrous burden on the citizens of Arizona. They need to find a different answer, IMO.

[quade 3]

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The US doesn't have a great track record when it comes to race relations.

I kinda knew that.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Shotgun 1]

This site explains the identification requirements:
http://www.arizonaguide.com/arizona-travel-info/identification-requirements

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For international travelers and those arriving by air, there are no changes in required documentation. The same documentation that was required prior to this legislation is still required now. If you arrive at an airport, Customs and Border Protection will ask you for proper identification. For assistance is determining the necessary documentation, please visit – www.travel.state.gov .You may also contact the Visa Section of the U.S. Embassy in your home country for more.

Not sure if that answers your question(?).

For me, I get the impression that my valid California driver's license will be sufficient.

And, just curious, but how do they currently enforce the 6-month time limit?

[Andy9o8 0]

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Actually, indigenous/Native/Aboriginal/American Indian people are required not only by the Bureau of Indian Affairs to carry pedigree/enrollment cards, but several nations require that the card be "accessible" for services.

...The key phrase being "for services". But not for simply walking on a public street. At least, not in writing.

[aphid 0]

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This site explains the identification requirements:
http://www.arizonaguide.com/arizona-travel-info/identification-requirements

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For international travelers and those arriving by air, there are no changes in required documentation. The same documentation that was required prior to this legislation is still required now. If you arrive at an airport, Customs and Border Protection will ask you for proper identification. For assistance is determining the necessary documentation, please visit – www.travel.state.gov .You may also contact the Visa Section of the U.S. Embassy in your home country for more.

The requirements as stated above are only ever presented at the Port of Entry. It could be an airport, a vehicle or pedestrian transit location, or the harbour at LA, Orlando, or Seattle if you arrive on a cruise ship. Remember, Canadians are visa-exempt, so there's not much point in talking to the Visa Section of a US Embassy.

Which means, in simple terms, Canadians apparently must now carry their passports at all times. And once again the reason most seasoned travelers don't are articulated in my original post. If we must remember to carry them 24 hours a day while vacationing in AZ, so be it. Sure hope a Canuck isn't mugged and has their's stolen. (There is no Canadian Embassy in AZ so getting replacement documents will be just a little difficult)

(An aside: just for illumination - not to divert this conversation. When I was at the World Meet in Russia, we had to turn our travel-documents in to the hotel for whatever reasons. Yet, we felt no concern about proving our status when walking around Red Square in Moscow. Why? Perhaps it was assumed their Border/Immigration people at the point of entry had actually done their job properly therefore everybody on the street had a right to be there?)

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And, just curious, but how do they currently enforce the 6-month time limit?

THAT is an GREAT question!

They don't. When we return to Canada, we don't have to present our passport, although most of us do because it's easier. So, if we don't present a passport to Canadian Customs, there is no record of us leaving the US on the magnetic strip on our passport(s).

Without that record, US Customs might have to make a best-guess assessment about how long a Canadian MIGHT have overstayed a previous visit if/when a Canuck attempts to re-enter and they scan the magnetic strip on their passport.

On the surface, at a quick glance, it all sounds so simple. But I would suggest... not so much.

[quade 3]

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Actually, indigenous/Native/Aboriginal/American Indian people are required not only by the Bureau of Indian Affairs to carry pedigree/enrollment cards, but several nations require that the card be "accessible" for services.

...The key phrase being "for services". But not for simply walking on a public street. At least, not in writing.

Ok, so let's move into the post SB1070 era.

Yeah, they have to carry it or any time they get stopped by the cops for anything, jaywalking, if they can't prove they belong here, they begin a journey that might lead to Mexico.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Andy9o8 0]

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Actually, indigenous/Native/Aboriginal/American Indian people are required not only by the Bureau of Indian Affairs to carry pedigree/enrollment cards, but several nations require that the card be "accessible" for services.

...The key phrase being "for services". But not for simply walking on a public street. At least, not in writing.

Ok, so let's move into the post SB1070 era.

Yeah, they have to carry it or any time they get stopped by the cops for anything, jaywalking, if they can't prove they belong here, they begin a journey that might lead to Mexico.

Sounds like that Cheech & Chong routine...

[turtlespeed 212]

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So...where do they send him?

Better question is how would they identify his citizenship . . . right? That answer is easy.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[DSE 3]

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So...where do they send him?

Better question is how would they identify his citizenship . . . right? That answer is easy.

I guess I'm not very smart because the answer isn't obvious to me.