The scentific method or assumtion, what are you inclined to beleive.

[rhys 0]

Quote

Oh...like the Maori, then?

Yes like the Maori, the english tried to invade and it took them 75+/- years before they decided to call it a truce. Hence the Maori tribes' current affluence. They got to keep what was dear to them, compare that to aborigional Australians, they didin't even get a name to identify themselves as.

The english thought they could just come and slaughter the Maori, they could not have been more wrong.

The Maori invented trench warfare in that war.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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Quote

Any where people were defending their land from unjustified invaders.

Isn't that ALWAYS the case? Is there any time anyone has ever seen the on coming horde and said to themselves, "well, fuck, we can't fight back. They're totally justified invading us."

Every time France was invaded?

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[Belgian_Draft 0]

I can't believe anybody would actually believe any of the dribble contained in that senselessly long post of yours points to a conspiracy of any kind.
Oh, wait...yeah, I can see you accepting it.

Quote

This includes spending more time with those I hold dearly, you guys can have your shallow and false existance.

So now, according to you, people who think for themselves, use logic and engineering knowledge to decide what to believe about 911, and try stop to flood of bullshit coming from the truthers....lead shallow and false lives. Hey, that makes perfect sense to me. After all, we should belive peole who have no education on physics and engineering over most of the worlds leading scientists. We should trust dropping concrete blocks from a few feet instead of extensive FEA analysis and simulation performed on supercomputers at a leading engineering university.
Yep, makes perfect fucking sense.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[skygnat 0]

I only gave this thread and video a cursory glance, but it appears you believe that the manner in which the WTC collapsed violates the laws of physics as most understand it.

It is well established that an object in motion that strikes another slows down, or rather loses some of its momentum. The conservation of energy thing...

What occurred with the WTC does not contradict this theory. The rate of acceleration at which the towers collapsed was the result of a compounding effect of increasing mass as each floor collapsed combined with the force of gravity.

Momentum = Mass x Velocity

A constant mass that strikes another mass will lose momentum, and in turn a proportionate amount of velocity, which balances the equation.

However, in this case the mass was not constant, as the total mass of the object in motion increased as each floor buckled from the mass on top of it.

Each time the floor above collapsed on top of the floor below it, this caused a decrease in speed and a large increase in mass. The result was an ever increasing momentum. Once a floor collapsed, the entire mass was in freefall and accelerating under the influence of gravity until it hit the next floor. During freefall gravity was doing its job by accelerating the mass at a rate of 32 feet per second per second.

By the time the third floor had collapsed the increasing momentum and speed was now such that nothing was going to stop it but the ground. With the weight of the falling mass increasing as it buckled each floor, the increasing momentum caused the falling mass to slow down a little bit less with each floor it collided with, while gravity was still accelerating this mass and increasing the velocity.

So there really is no conspiracy or coverup, or ignorance of the laws of physics, as suggested by this post. If the experiments or alternative hypothesis made by these folks had any merit, there would be no shortage of academics ready to back it up and be all over it. But that is not the case here.

[Belgian_Draft 0]

Good post. I agree that if there were a shred of evidence, that was sound from an engineering and scientific base, that would point to any sort of conspiracy you would see several professionals from this forum who would be all over it as a chance to slam one on ol' GW, myself included. But there isn't, so there aren't.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[jakee 1,260]

Quote

Does that spell itout for you?

Spell what out? That you can play "6 degrees to Kevin Bacon Dick Cheney"?

So what?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jakee 1,260]

Quote

Yes like the Maori, the english tried to invade and it took them 75+/- years before they decided to call it a truce.

Side note, why is it that New Zealander's always talk about the English doing the bad stuff in NZ's history, rather than them? Wierd cultural disassociation thing.

F'rinstance, when I was touring NZ a few years ago I worked for a groundskeeper for a little while in the Bay of Islands - he was talking about how NZ's natural fauna was under attack from western imports and blamed my ancestors for bringing them over. Couldn't help pointing out that my ancestors stayed at home, it was his that traipsed half way round the world and brought their kitchen gardens with them.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Belgian_Draft 0]

Quote

Quote

Does that spell itout for you?

Spell what out? That you can play "6 degrees to Kevin Bacon Dick Cheney"?

So what?

I'm surprised he didn't include a Wookie in there somewhere.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[turtlespeed 212]

I haven't spent the time here to read all of it and skimmed over most.

I'll concede (Somewhat reluctantly ) that I respect Kallend in his knowledge of physics . . . what has been his opinion on this subject?

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[rhys 0]

Quote

I only gave this thread and video a cursory glance, but it appears you believe that the manner in which the WTC collapsed violates the laws of physics as most understand it.

It is well established that an object in motion that strikes another slows down, or rather loses some of its momentum. The conservation of energy thing...

What occurred with the WTC does not contradict this theory. The rate of acceleration at which the towers collapsed was the result of a compounding effect of increasing mass as each floor collapsed combined with the force of gravity.

Momentum = Mass x Velocity

A constant mass that strikes another mass will lose momentum, and in turn a proportionate amount of velocity, which balances the equation.

However, in this case the mass was not constant, as the total mass of the object in motion increased as each floor buckled from the mass on top of it.

Each time the floor above collapsed on top of the floor below it, this caused a decrease in speed and a large increase in mass. The result was an ever increasing momentum. Once a floor collapsed, the entire mass was in freefall and accelerating under the influence of gravity until it hit the next floor. During freefall gravity was doing its job by accelerating the mass at a rate of 32 feet per second per second.

By the time the third floor had collapsed the increasing momentum and speed was now such that nothing was going to stop it but the ground. With the weight of the falling mass increasing as it buckled each floor, the increasing momentum caused the falling mass to slow down a little bit less with each floor it collided with, while gravity was still accelerating this mass and increasing the velocity.

So there really is no conspiracy or coverup, or ignorance of the laws of physics, as suggested by this post. If the experiments or alternative hypothesis made by these folks had any merit, there would be no shortage of academics ready to back it up and be all over it. But that is not the case here.

At last someone that has a rational answer that is not an I'm right and you are wrong attitude, thank you. I very much respect you for that.

I'll try to ignore the bigotry and absent mindedness of the other replies and try to engage in a meaningfull conversation, you are a breath of fresh air.

I see you have a good understanding of physicis and can present you knowledge in a rational manner.

Bearing in mind your detailed post, do you beleive it is possible for freefall acceleration to occur while all this friction is taking place?

Can the transfer of energy from floor to floor happen at such a rate that the complex falls for a period at the accleration of gravity?

If you beleive this is possible can you please clarify. there are plenty of people that claim to beleive this is possible but none have even attemted to explain how they beleive it is so.

You obviously have a deeper understanding of physics but with my megre high school physics and every day life experience, am lead to beleive that freefall would be impossible with such activity taking place.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[rhys 0]

Quote

So there really is no conspiracy or coverup, or ignorance of the laws of physics, as suggested by this post. If the experiments or alternative hypothesis made by these folks had any merit, there would be no shortage of academics ready to back it up and be all over it. But that is not the case here.

Are you familiar with ae911truth, scholars for 911truth , scholars for 911 truth and justice , firefighters for 911 truth or any of those groups?

There are many thousands of industry professionals in different fields with varying concerns with the official narrative. You will find much information on this.

If you look.

You will find that there are thousands of professionals that are backing this hypothesis, these thousands of people will be subjected to the same bigotry and peer pressure that you will notice here. Some have lost thier jobs and have had intervention from government officials in the form of threats on thier careers and lives, at least one has died mysteriously and there is more than enough reason for many to simply keep thier mouths and minds shut.


If we really lived in a free society where freedom of speech was respected, you would find that many, many more would be inclined to speak out but most would rather keep thier jobs and their lives.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[jclalor 12]

Quote

There are many thousands of industry professionals in different field withvarying concerns with the official narrative. you will find muchonformation on this.

Quacks are not immune from education or profession. You can find nut cases in every profession, be it MD'S, historians or what ever.

Michael Shermer wrote the book " why people believe weird things" I think it might be good reading for some people to understand themselves better.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Why_People_Believe_Weird_Things

Some more good reading:

http://skepdic.com/911conspiracy.html

[Belgian_Draft 0]

Quote

There are many thousands of industry professionals in different fields with varying concerns with the official narrative.

No, there are not. It took the truthers over eight years to find 1000 people to sign their petition.

Skygnat did a very good job of giving a simple explanation for what happened. I don't know his level of knowledge in physics and I hope I am not insulting him with this post. If I am I sincerely apologize. The keyword here is simple. It is not, as you (rhys) wrote, "detailed". A detailed explanation is available but I doubt anyone with just a high school physics education would take much away from it and would most likely end up even more confused.
Add to it that most scientific reports are extremely lengthy. I submitted a report last week on a simple resistence welding process that only covered one material, one thickness, in a simple lap joint. The report was over 12 pages long. That is as brief as I could make it and still convey all relative data, procedures, results, equipment, microstructure, residual stresses, hardness profiles, etc.
Your reply to Skygnat shows that you didn't even understand his simple explanation. If you had, you would not need to ask the basic questions of it that you did.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[sundevil777 94]

Quote

Quote

I only gave this thread and video a cursory glance, but it appears you believe that the manner in which the WTC collapsed violates the laws of physics as most understand it.

It is well established that an object in motion that strikes another slows down, or rather loses some of its momentum. The conservation of energy thing...

What occurred with the WTC does not contradict this theory. The rate of acceleration at which the towers collapsed was the result of a compounding effect of increasing mass as each floor collapsed combined with the force of gravity.

Momentum = Mass x Velocity

A constant mass that strikes another mass will lose momentum, and in turn a proportionate amount of velocity, which balances the equation.

However, in this case the mass was not constant, as the total mass of the object in motion increased as each floor buckled from the mass on top of it.

Each time the floor above collapsed on top of the floor below it, this caused a decrease in speed and a large increase in mass. The result was an ever increasing momentum. Once a floor collapsed, the entire mass was in freefall and accelerating under the influence of gravity until it hit the next floor. During freefall gravity was doing its job by accelerating the mass at a rate of 32 feet per second per second.

By the time the third floor had collapsed the increasing momentum and speed was now such that nothing was going to stop it but the ground. With the weight of the falling mass increasing as it buckled each floor, the increasing momentum caused the falling mass to slow down a little bit less with each floor it collided with, while gravity was still accelerating this mass and increasing the velocity.

So there really is no conspiracy or coverup, or ignorance of the laws of physics, as suggested by this post. If the experiments or alternative hypothesis made by these folks had any merit, there would be no shortage of academics ready to back it up and be all over it. But that is not the case here.

At last someone that has a rational answer that is not an I'm right and you are wrong attitude, thank you. I very much respect you for that.

I'll try to ignore the bigotry and absent mindedness of the other replies and try to engage in a meaningful conversation, you are a breath of fresh air.

I see you have a good understanding of physicis and can present you knowledge in a rational manner.

Bearing in mind your detailed post, do you beleive it is possible for freefall acceleration to occur while all this friction is taking place?

Can the transfer of energy from floor to floor happen at such a rate that the complex falls for a period at the accleration of gravity?

If you beleive this is possible can you please clarify. there are plenty of people that claim to beleive this is possible but none have even attemted to explain how they beleive it is so.

You obviously have a deeper understanding of physics but with my megre high school physics and every day life experience, am lead to beleive that freefall would be impossible with such activity taking place.

Your ability to judge another persons understanding of physics is not worth a darn, as shown by your willingness to only trust the CS advocates.

Please stop misrepresenting what the data shows us.

Your claim that freefall acceleration happened is not true. It was close, but not 1.0g as you repeatedly assert. If the NIST said it was falling at that rate, well then they should have been more precise and stated that it was falling at .99, .96, or .90 or whatever they measured. Of course the methods available to measure the acceleration will have an uncertainty that is significant, so their measurement would likely have at least a plus/minus 3-5% uncertainty.

Let us assume that the nominal measured value (without considering the magnitude of error) was, well let us use .95g as a number to argue about, and assume that the NIST chose to call that the same as freefall. You seem to want to call it freefall, even though it is not quite there. The .05g that is missing is due to the resistance of the structure.

So, please tell us at what rate the building should have fallen if, as you claim, the structure had not been intentionally weakened before the fall. All that you have ever done in the past is say, "it should have been slower" without putting any sort of number to that.

Your conspiracy advocate websites even spend the time in their videos showing a lady explaining how you can't say, "ca-chuck, ca-chunk" for each floor fast enough to allow the collapse. Don't you have a proposal for how long a "ca-chunk" requires? The lady in the truther video implies that the structure would come to a complete stop with each "ca-chunk" Yet it disappoints you when truthers are ridiculed!

If you cannot address this point, then you got nothing - How fast should it have fallen, and how much error is in the video measurement?

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[skygnat 0]

I agree with Belgian_Draft that even relatively simple technical discussions can become rather lengthy, and I tried to avoid this by explaining this as simply as possible.

Quote

Bearing in mind your detailed post, do you beleive it is possible for freefall acceleration to occur while all this friction is taking place?
Can the transfer of energy from floor to floor happen at such a rate that the complex falls for a period at the accleration of gravity?

Absolutely

Quote

If you beleive this is possible can you please clarify. there are plenty of people that claim to beleive this is possible but none have even attemted to explain how they beleive it is so.

The reason most won't even attempt to explain this is because they consider it frivolous and a waste of time. It does not matter that "there are plenty of people that believe it is possible", if none of those folks opinions are considered important. However, almost any technical person will gladly argue such matters if you bring an equally good technical understanding to the table and you can articulate both theories in their entirety, and why you believe your opposing theory is correct.

I don't mean to sound condescending, but this is where you need to buckle down and do your homework and learn to understand the underlying physics of this on your own.

One cannot rationally argue against an established scientific principle based on gut feelings without a solid technical understanding of the issue in question. Without a good technical understanding, one cannot objectively compare and evaluate competing hypothesis and independently come to an arguably sound conclusion on which one they believe is right.

Without a good technical understanding, all one can do is believe which argument "sounds better". And often the one that "sounds better" is the one that appeals to the emotional rather than the rational side of the brain.

Just for qualification, I do have chemical and mechanical engineering degrees, although it's been awhile since I discussed basic physics topics such as this.

The days of McCarthy are long gone and no one is being accused of being Commies any more, or even as in more recent times of being called card carrying liberals. While some are still called unAmerican for their views, it does not appear to scare many, or make them afraid to stand up and speak out on any issue or against the war, much less of losing their jobs or their lives over something like this.

[jakee 1,260]

I don't think Rhys is going to be your friend anymore

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[rhys 0]

Quote

No, there are not. It took the truthers over eight years to find 1000 people to sign their petition.

If that is your interpretation of reality, you are deeply mistaken.

You are only kidding yourself

It took them about 5 years to get 1200 registered architects and engineers to sign a petition. 1000 of them have been in the past 2 years. when they have had the capacity to market their hypothesis and complete the peer reviewed journals and scientific papers and presentations.


Many indeed are too afraid to speak out because bigotry and ridicule from small minded individuals like you will interfere with their careers.

Some kind of skewed reality you live in there pal, this message is about the amount of energy I am prepared to spend on you these days.

Your attitude and lack of professionalism is disgusting, you should be ashamed of yourself.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[rhys 0]

[replyI agree with Belgian_Draft that even relatively simple technical discussions can become rather lengthy, and I tried to avoid this by explaining this as simply as possible.

In Reply To
Bearing in mind your detailed post, do you beleive it is possible for freefall acceleration to occur while all this friction is taking place?
Can the transfer of energy from floor to floor happen at such a rate that the complex falls for a period at the accleration of gravity?
Absolutely

In Reply To
If you beleive this is possible can you please clarify. there are plenty of people that claim to beleive this is possible but none have even attemted to explain how they beleive it is so.
The reason most won't even attempt to explain this is because they consider it frivolous and a waste of time. It does not matter that "there are plenty of people that believe it is possible", if none of those folks opinions are considered important. However, almost any technical person will gladly argue such matters if you bring an equally good technical understanding to the table and you can articulate both theories in their entirety, and why you believe your opposing theory is correct.

I don't mean to sound condescending, but this is where you need to buckle down and do your homework and learn to understand the underlying physics of this on your own.

One cannot rationally argue against an established scientific principle based on gut feelings without a solid technical understanding of the issue in question. Without a good technical understanding, one cannot objectively compare and evaluate competing hypothesis and independently come to an arguably sound conclusion on which one they believe is right.

Without a good technical understanding, all one can do is believe which argument "sounds better". And often the one that "sounds better" is the one that appeals to the emotional rather than the rational side of the brain.

Just for qualification, I do have chemical and mechanical engineering degrees, although it's been awhile since I discussed basic physics topics such as this.

The days of McCarthy are long gone and no one is being accused of being Commies any more, or even as in more recent times of being called card carrying liberals. While some are still called unAmerican for their views, it does not appear to scare many, or make them afraid to stand up and speak out on any issue or against the war, much less of losing their jobs or their lives over something like this.

So you are not prepared to expose your reason to believe freefall acceleration is possible, you are prepared to spend time blowing smoke up you own ass, but you have no way of explaining yourself.

if you did you would do so, but instead you say,"I know more than you because ...i just know", without substantiating you claims.

My respect for you is diminishing.

You could redeem yourself and set thousands and thousands of people straight with your explanation, but instead you are content in your own mind accepting that you are right and I am wrong.

weak mate, quite weak indeed.

if you can explain how you think the free fall is possible, you would be doing better than the 20million dollar report on the subject I would post it on a website dedicated to the subject that gets up to 100,000 hits a day. You could be a hero, but you would rather be a legend in your own lunchtime!

"Imminent global collapse", by the way, is not a valid explanation!

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[yourmomma 0]

A lead ball is dropped into a lake from a diving board 5.12 m above the water. It hits the water with a certain velocity and then sinks to the bottom with this same constant velocity. It reaches the bottom 4.72 s after it is dropped. (Assume the positive direction is upward.) How deep is the lake?

[Belgian_Draft 0]

Quote

It took them about 5 years to get 1200 registered architects and engineers to sign a petition. 1000 of them have been in the past 2 years. when they have had the capacity to market their hypothesis and complete the peer reviewed journals and scientific papers and presentations.

Ok, so it took 5 years to get 1200. That isn't significantly better than 8 years to get 1000.
What publications contain these so-called reports? I have never come across one in any respectable journal nor am i aware of any presentation by them at any respectable conference.

Quote

Many indeed are too afraid to speak out because bigotry and ridicule from small minded individuals like you will interfere with their careers.

Uh, you might want to rethink that one. I know of no engineer, physicist, chemist, scientist, etc. who is concerned about ridicule when it comes to putting forth the truth. As has already been mentioned, if their were any reliable evidence that could be backed up by facts, there are several on this forum who would jump all over it as a chance to slam on Bush. THAT, my dear fellow, is a fact!

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[sundevil777 94]

Quote

My respect for you is diminishing.

That's a good one! Like it, like it

Quote

if you can explain how you think the free fall is possible,

It didn't happen, even by your own guy's data, so no need for an explanation.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[Belgian_Draft 0]

Quote

Your attitude and lack of professionalism is disgusting, you should be ashamed of yourself.

PA's like that can get the poster a timeout.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[billvon 2,435]

Your one warning. Cut it out.

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

You could redeem yourself and set thousands and thousands of people straight with your explanation, but instead you are content in your own mind accepting that you are right and I am wrong.

His time is worth something, and he's correctly assessed that spending it to trying to convince you is futile. You still haven't answered the question of what acceleration should be.

[Guest]

Quote

The statement that global collapse is inevitable?

The Soviets said that, but we're still here and they are not.

One can't run an economy of propagandic BS.

mh
.

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."