The diplomatic discussion on using the system to your advantage.

[kelpdiver 2]

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Back to the Walmart example - I would be willing to bet that if I approached the Manager of a Walmart and told him it was my intent to purchase a product, use it, then return it for a complete refund he would still sell it to me. He knows the Vendors have already paid a return allowance and is betting that I will forget or not follow up on returning the item.

Until 100 of you come in saying the same thing. You could clean out the entire inventory of camping supplies for the week, then tie up substantial manhours in repacking for return to the manufacturer. In this scenario, you're a free loader. Legal, but certainly problematic.

Return policies are good business for both parties. Customers are more likely to buy when they know they can return if the item does not meet their requirements. If this is done honestly, it's win win. But when people start using it as a rental service (need a camcorder this weekend? Big Screen TV for the Superbowl? No problem!), then the company has to change their policies, put restocking fees of 10 or 15%. At that point, I'm not going to buy an item I'm not absolutely sure I wanted. And now it's a lose lose situation. All because of parasites like Rhys.

It's a serious question for those of us in niche sports like skydiving, or diving. Shore divers need air fills; dive shops provide that basically as a loss leader to get customers inside. But if you only get tank fills, and only try out their gear in order to make a mail order purchase later, the dive shop will close down and now you have no fills.

Skydiving gear dealers provide a lot of information that isn't captured in the price. Americans as a generality don't see to value this; they'd rather pay a lower price to a huge vendor Best Buy, yet complain about how retarded the salesmen are. The two are linked.

Unfortunately, the economy of scale often means that the little guy can't sell it to you for less, and sometimes the difference is too great for your wallet. (And some don't actually provide the value add to justify it) So you may opt for that mail order option after you used the guy's time for 3 hours. Legal, sure. Ethical, not at all. And something that you probably shouldn't be proudly declaring.

Rhys, a lot of people think you're a kook for your 9/11 bullshit, but wouldn't think at all about it when it came to spending time with you at the DZ and in the air. But your statements here definitely cast you in a poor light and rather than backtrack, you're only reinforcing them with the second thread.

[Bolas 5]

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>If I made my intent clear prior to the purchase, I wouldn't consider the act
>immoral.

Agreed there. It's the prior understanding that is the key.

Intent to whom? The cashier? They aren't going to care, probably not even the manager unless they get a sales based bonus.

Just because you tell someone you are going to do something doesn't make it right either. Particularly if they may (wrongly) feel it doesn't effect them.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[billvon 2,473]

>Intent to whom?

From the post I answered:

"I would be willing to bet that if I approached the Manager of a Walmart and told him it was my intent to purchase a product, use it, then return it for a complete refund he would still sell it to me. He knows the Vendors have already paid a return allowance and is betting that I will forget or not follow up on returning the item. If I made my intent clear prior to the purchase, I wouldn't consider the act immoral."

[Zach 0]

I know this isn't what you asked for in response, but wouldn't you feel better just not shopping at Walmart if you dislike the company so much. Why not purchase the products you want from a company you respect? Isn't that the way the free market is supposed to work? Unless your goal was never to actually purchase anything from the get go.

Did you actually want or need the product(s) you purchased or did you only buy something so you could get it dirty and take it back?

Zach

[billvon 2,473]

>but wouldn't you feel better just not shopping at Walmart if you dislike
>the company so much.

The goal here is to get free stuff, not any sort of actual purchase.

[Bolas 5]

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>Intent to whom?

From the post I answered:

"I would be willing to bet that if I approached the Manager of a Walmart and told him it was my intent to purchase a product, use it, then return it for a complete refund he would still sell it to me. He knows the Vendors have already paid a return allowance and is betting that I will forget or not follow up on returning the item. If I made my intent clear prior to the purchase, I wouldn't consider the act immoral."

And I replied:

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They aren't going to care, probably not even the manager unless they get a sales based bonus.

Just because you tell someone you are going to do something doesn't make it right either. Particularly if they may (wrongly) feel it doesn't effect them.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[rhys 0]

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Probably?

yep, if they had a tent that suited my needs and a matteress that didn't leak, if the tent was too small and tha matteress damaged they would still suggest i used them but i would rather purchase the correct size.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[rhys 0]

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I know this isn't what you asked for in response, but wouldn't you feel better just not shopping at Walmart if you dislike the company so much. Why not purchase the products you want from a company you respect? Isn't that the way the free market is supposed to work? Unless your goal was never to actually purchase anything from the get go.

Did you actually want or need the product(s) you purchased or did you only buy something so you could get it dirty and take it back?

I needed a tent to live in for a few weeks at a dropzone whle I was visiting. My origional plan was to stay in a hotel and rent a car. I lost my drivers license 2 days before flying to the states so had to change my plans. I decided to camp and learned of the walmart policy, I learned about this policy and how i could utilise it because I said I would rather not buy from there...

The tent suited my needs for northern california in the summer but wouldn't last 5 minutes in New Zealand. I had no reason to bring it back with me.

I purchased from Walmart with the intent of using it and getting my money back, the tent was actually in mint condition when i returned it, I cleaned it so it looked like new. Their policy allows for this and there is nothing wrong with it.

they count on this emotion we have inside that make you all feel this way about it, and guess what, they are correct.

I never lied and never broke any rule, they were happy and I was happy.

No worries, well maybe a worry for some self proclaimed angels in here, but walmart and me have a mutual understanding!

Give them a ring if you think there is a problem, see how much they care!!

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[futuredivot 0]

And you're still a thief.

You are only as strong as the prey you devour

[rhys 0]

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If your actions are morally correct you should be willing to engage in the same behavior w/ any other merchant (w/ similar return policy) as well.

The fraud comes from not disclosing at the beginning of the sale that you do not intend to keep the items. Not legal fraud, but you are mis-representing your purposes through silence.

How many people have you ever heard engage in conversation with their checkout person, about what they intend to do with anything they are purchasing?

Where is my obligation to disclose my intent.

Another retailer would likey ask why I was returning the goods, it would be breaking the rules, the law and morals if any deception was involved. Not many reatilers have this policy and not many have plucked my strings and assigned themselves into my 'Greedy Corrupt Cunt' category, Walmart have, with their openy public immoral conduct.

In this case however the rules are clear, 'no questions asked' , in full reality I was not happy with the tent, it was fine for my needs in Lodi, but would get very wet in New Zealand. It was advertised as a 3 seasons tent. It rains while being extremely windy in summer in NZ and your camping holiday would potentially be quite miserable in that tent!

This was not my point and I am not trying to justify may actions. I know that I did no wrong. If they had have told me that I would have to have a problem with the product to return it under warrantee, I would have just given it to someone. We saved a couple of grand by using it. I wanted to take advantage of them because they allow me to.

It was all an excersise, such as this conversation is. That's how I roll.

All you can all do is 'accuse' me of doing bad, because none of you have explained what is actually wrong, you just continue to say it is.

You have made false assertions but still fail to see the point.

These accusations without full investigation or sensible explanation are all too common these days. Bandwagons! Especially in here.

It is quite amusing!

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[rhys 0]

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Exactly...and it's the three obvious cracks in his character that concern me.

He does it.

He brags about it.

He somehow thinks he's ethically justified doing it.

I did it, I was ridiculed for it, I explained to you all clearly and consisely how it is not wrong or unfair yet you all still want to persecute me.

Read my post just above, maybe that will clarify your clouded judgement if what type of person you think I am.

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If I were an employer I wouldn't hire someone like that for any job.

For what reason, you don't want a thrifty, savvy employee that understands the rules, respects them and likes to reduce costs?

What is it that has made you make this stern judgement of me?

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If we were jumping at the same place I would NOT leave him alone near my gear.

You wouldn't last 5 minutes at my dropzone/workplace, we know how to have alot fun and take criticism from each other and make fun of ourselves. We even have a token seppo whoes nickname is 'Oklahomo' he's awesome because he gets it, that knows our ways and has just as much fun with us being ourselves not who other people want us to be. We all have oppsoing thoughts but we respect each other. You would be the object of ridicule in no time if you couldn't handle alternative opinions.

I also work for one of the most successful tandem skydiving operations in the world and earn about the maximum possible as a contracting commercial skydiving instuctor ($80-100k) annually. My wife does also we are on almost $200k for skydiving. I am about to leave here and begin our own. Soon I too will be offering a very high income to people in one of the most beautiful places in the world. I will show ethic and morals while I run my dropzone, people will want to work with me, I will offer them what I have now!

Not like walmart, aye!

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[futuredivot 0]

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I know that I did no wrong.

Which is why you can't be trusted as far as I can shit uphill.

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because none of you have explained what is actually wrong,

It's been explained several times yet you choose not to see it. That's OK-If I were a basically corrupt, dishonest thief, I'd be denial too. Once again, if given the opportunity, you should make every effort to stay well away from anything of mine.

You are only as strong as the prey you devour

[Lefty 0]

What a disturbing thread. I hope you realize that even if you are right, you'd be setting the standard for Pyrrhic victories on these forums. Stay away from my stuff, please.

Provoking a reaction isn't the same thing as saying something meaningful.
-Calvin

[airdvr 200]

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I will show ethic and morals while I run my dropzone, people will want to work with me, I will offer them what I have now!

Maybe. But folks like you will always revert to the lowest common denominator when push comes to shove. BTW...if you make all this money why did you have to 'rent a tent' from Wallyworld?

It is clearly you that doesn't get it and as I said in the other thread I'm so glad you outted yourself here so that others will be forewarned.

Your Narcissistic personality disorder requires that you come first always and my experience is you will throw me under the bus quickly if necessary. I feel sorry for your employees because they are unaware of this until it's too late.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[rhys 0]

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What a disturbing thread. I hope you realize that even if you are right, you'd be setting the standard for Pyrrhic victories on these forums. Stay away from my stuff, please.

Wow a Phyrric victory!





I'm sorry, diplomatic yes... ahem.

Phyrric Victory would be a little far fetched, most would never have the audacity to so so even though it is well within thier rights, I am intriged by what it is that makes people this way but no one can actually explain what is actually wrong.

What are your thoughts on monopolies?

Walmart know people do it, do you really think i was being sneaky?

You must at least explain your

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[DiverMike 5]

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Where is my obligation to disclose my intent.

Most people prefer to be honest. It is not on obligation, just the way most of us were brought up.

You are clearly acting in an immoral manner. I was dancing around semantics and giving you the benefit of the doubt. You have removed all doubt.

For the same reason I jump off a perfectly good diving board.

[rhys 0]

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Maybe. But folks like you will always revert to the lowest common denominator when push comes to shove. BTW...if you make all this money why did you have to 'rent a tent' from Wallyworld?

Because I was being thrifty. A month earlier we had $25,000cash, we got married, went on honeymoon in Fiji, attended a P3 bigway camp, flew to florida, obtained USPA coach ratings converted my ratings, my wife went through her tandem rating (something everybody told her she should not or could not do), we picked up 4 brand new custom vector microns we paid half price for, flew to California and arrived in Lodi with about $12500 in debt.

We spent more than $30,000 while we were in the USA over a 5 month period.

A few months later in Australia we were earning more than twice of what we were before, becuase we used the system to our advantage.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[rhys 0]

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Most people prefer to be honest. It is not on obligation, just the way most of us were brought up.

You are clearly acting in an immoral manner. I was dancing around semantics and giving you the benefit of the doubt. You have removed all doubt.

I have been pretty damned honest, dancing around semantics is all you have done.

I hope I have removed all doubt, that is my intent, all that has been removed from ths conversation is any sort of explanation of your feelings, you act as if you are clear cut, but but expact me to understand your point without actually telling me what it is.

I have laid my cards on the table and you are trying to bluff me after the river.

Come on 'show me your cards'.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[Lefty 0]

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What a disturbing thread. I hope you realize that even if you are right, you'd be setting the standard for Pyrrhic victories on these forums. Stay away from my stuff, please.

Wow a Phyrric victory!





I'm sorry, diplomatic yes... ahem.

Phyrric Victory would be a little far fetched, most would never have the audacity to so so even though it is well within thier rights, I am intriged by what it is that makes people this way but no one can actually explain what is actually wrong.

What are your thoughts on monopolies?

Walmart know people do it, do you really think i was being sneaky?

You must at least explain your

I didn't think you'd see what I was driving at. You're currently establishing a very negative reputation for yourself among people who might not appreciate your nuanced view of the whole thievery issue, and these boards have a long memory.

So, even if you do win the argument (according to some metric I couldn't begin to fathom), the perception of your character is paying a very high price for it.

Anyway, just trying to help. Have fun!

Provoking a reaction isn't the same thing as saying something meaningful.
-Calvin

[Butters 0]

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I lost my drivers license ...

Why did you lose your drivers license?

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[rhys 0]

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I didn't think you'd see what I was driving at.

Yet you still cannot explan what it is you are driving at, maybe I am blind and you have the moral answer for me.

If you never tell me how am I to understand.

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You're currently establishing a very negative reputation for yourself among people who might not appreciate your nuanced view of the whole thievery issue, and these boards have a long memory.

I've been on these forums for years, and I have always been honest and open about it. These are qualities you could exhibit here, but you refuse to.

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So, even if you do win the argument (according to some metric I couldn't begin to fathom), the perception of your character is paying a very high price for it.

So you are saying that I shold care more about what other people say is right and not follow my instincts?

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Anyway, just trying to help. Have fun! Laugh

If you truly were trying to help, you would explain to me what the fundamental problem is with my viewpoint. That sign off is a bizzare way to express your inability to expalin yourself.

Thanks for dropping in though.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[rhys 0]

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Why did you lose your drivers license?

My wallet fell out of my pocket when I was riding my electric skateboard home from work, I was living in Australia and only have a New Zealand drivers lisence. it was too much of a mission to replace it before I left. funnily enough it was returned via the police about 10 months later.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[Andy9o8 0]

I can't decide if you're as antisocial as you regularly project yourself to be on here, or just enjoy the giggle of getting people to react to trolling.
I don't really care.

[airtwardo 6]

So...you make 100K a year, lost your ID cruisin' on a skateboard & you're bragging about bangin' Wal-Mart outta 50 bucks!

I'm not cappin' on ya man...I just LOVE the variety of people types that are in this sport!

Oh, and don't be so sure I wouldn't last 10 minutes at your 'hardcore' DZ...I've been floating kegs at boogie bonfires since you were shitting mustard in 3 corner pants...

~callin' someone a Oklahomo is pretty tame compared to getting a kiss on the lips in free-fall from Carl Nelson after he popped the covers on yer capewells.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[Zach 0]

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they count on this emotion we have inside that make you all feel this way about it, and guess what, they are correct.

I never lied and never broke any rule, they were happy and I was happy.

No worries, well maybe a worry for some self proclaimed angels in here, but walmart and me have a mutual understanding!

Give them a ring if you think there is a problem, see how much they care!!

I was just asking a few questions bro.

Zach