Please help re Glen Beck

[rushmc 18]

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>Yep, another unbiased report

You must have not read the entire thing. .

Oh the humanity! Rushmc didn't read the post before he hit "Reply"

That was the first part

Another disgusting kallend tactic

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[kallend 1,654]

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http://www.netl.doe.gov/KeyIssues/future_fuel.html

From your article praising the reduction in pollution:

"In 1990, new amendments to the Clean Air Act mandated that nationwide caps be placed on the release of sulfur dioxide and nitrogen oxides from coal-burning power plants. In some areas of the United States – particularly the eastern portion of the Nation – many states must implement plans to reduce nitrogen oxides to even greater levels than those mandated by the nationwide cap."

Apparently caps WORK!

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[billvon 2,446]

>Want to discuss this? Start another thread and I will join

Exactly, Kallend. In the republican world, coal mining has nothing to do with coal. This thread is for discussing things that have to do with coal power, not things that have to do with coal power.

[kallend 1,654]

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>Yep, another unbiased report

You must have not read the entire thing. .

Oh the humanity! Rushmc didn't read the post before he hit "Reply"

That was the first part

Another disgusting kallend tactic

My "tactic" can't control your actions. There's nothing I can do that forces you to post responses without reading what you're responding to.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rushmc 18]

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>Want to discuss this? Start another thread and I will join

Exactly, Kallend. In the republican world, coal mining has nothing to do with coal. This thread is for discussing things that have to do with coal power, not things that have to do with coal power.

Nope, not what I said
But expanding the topic makes it impossible to discuss
That is another topic to itself and there are some PPE discussions I think you would like to ignore
Typical
As for deaths from burning coal and related health issues the same estimation science is used to exaggerate the the real effects
Kind of like your side on AGW
As for companies that burn coal and mine it you stated they do it "on the backs" of whom ever

A generalization you can not back up.

Most companies are spending millions if not billions installing equipment to clean exhausts years ahead of EPA requirements and dead lines
But you need your demons to push your agenda

Shameful

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 18]

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>Yep, another unbiased report

You must have not read the entire thing. .

Oh the humanity! Rushmc didn't read the post before he hit "Reply"

That was the first part

Another disgusting kallend tactic

My "tactic" can't control your actions. There's nothing I can do that forces you to post responses without reading what you're responding to.

No, but your tactics ignore context and try to change directions in threads

Dishonest at best

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[billvon 2,446]

>As for deaths from burning coal and related health issues the same
>estimation science is used to exaggerate the the real effects . . . .

"Those people at the bottom of that flood aren't dead! They're just pining for the fjords! This is a plot by that evil Al Gore to make coal power look bad. It's all a big exaggeration. Why, they'll be getting up any minute. Any minute now. Any minute. What's that smell?"

>As for companies that burn coal and mine it you stated they do it "on the
> backs" of whom ever. A generalization you can not back up.

You mean other than the proof I posted of people being killed by coal. Dead bodies are pretty good proof in the real world.

[rushmc 18]

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>As for deaths from burning coal and related health issues the same
>estimation science is used to exaggerate the the real effects . . . .

"Those people at the bottom of that flood aren't dead! They're just pining for the fjords! This is a plot by that evil Al Gore to make coal power look bad. It's all a big exaggeration. Why, they'll be getting up any minute. Any minute now. Any minute. What's that smell?"

>As for companies that burn coal and mine it you stated they do it "on the
> backs" of whom ever. A generalization you can not back up.

You mean other than the proof I posted of people being killed by coal. Dead bodies are pretty good proof in the real world.

proof??

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[brenthutch 388]

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>So what is this cheaper energy source you speak of.

Wind, hydro, nuclear, geothermal, cogeneration, solar thermal. Wind is now as cheap as coal, and in some areas, cheaper. Excel Energy developed a wind farm near Lamar, and said it has saved consumers $4.6 million so far.

Well then if it is cheaper there is no need for cap and trade; market forces will price coal out of the market.

[brenthutch 388]

Although this is tedious and I am loathe to do so, it is apparent that I have to conduct a much-needed period of instruction on economics:

Coal power is going for $100 per widgiewatt and unicorn power (whose only byproduct is love and rainbows) is going for $150. The government steps in an imposes a tax on coal, causing it to go to $200 per widgiewatt. The fundamental economic forces will cause unicorn power to rise to at least $199 per widgiewatt, causing unicorn power to cost no less than the evil coal power. If this doesn’t make sense to you, put down your bong and go to your local community college and take a macro econ class.

[kallend 1,654]

Brenthutch responded to Brenthutch:

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Although this is tedious and I am loathe to do so, it is apparent that I have to conduct a much-needed period of instruction on economics:

Coal power is going for $100 per widgiewatt and unicorn power (whose only byproduct is love and rainbows) is going for $150. The government steps in an imposes a tax on coal, causing it to go to $200 per widgiewatt. The fundamental economic forces will cause unicorn power to rise to at least $199 per widgiewatt, causing unicorn power to cost no less than the evil coal power. If this doesn’t make sense to you, put down your bong and go to your local community college and take a macro econ class.

Mr. Hutch, why are you telling yourself in this forum to learn some macro economics? You could save bandwidth by just looking in the mirror and saying it to your reflection.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 1,654]

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Typical
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Shameful
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Dishonest
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Is Vinny the Anvil back among us, having stolen Marc's username and password?

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Amazon 7]

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Typical
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Shameful
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Dishonest
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Is Vinny the Anvil back among us, having stolen Marc's username and password?

He hasn't barfed yet...probably not enough tequila has been consumed.

[billvon 2,446]

>proof?

Dead bodies are pretty good proof for people who live in the reality-based world.

[billvon 2,446]

>Well then if it is cheaper there is no need for cap and trade; market
>forces will price coal out of the market.

Agreed! Let them compete on a level playing field. Make coal mining companies pay for every acre of land they mine; make coal power companies pay for every death they cause. (I'll let you choose a price per death.) Make wind companies do the same. Then let the market decide.

[rushmc 18]

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Typical
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Shameful
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Dishonest
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Is Vinny the Anvil back among us, having stolen Marc's username and password?

You want to have a discussion then stop those tactics that bring you the shame
Otherwise I will call them for what they are

and you for what you are doing

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 18]

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>proof?

Dead bodies are pretty good proof for people who live in the reality-based world.

How about some names?

Just cause somebody says those are the numbers does not make them true.

But if you agree with them well there you go

Crap numbers and reporting like you post have been going on for years
I live down wind of maybe one of the largest groups of coal fired plants in the US. Those owned by Mid Am on the Missouri rivier

Next you will put words in my mouth stating I dont think they have issues at all. That is not the case. But just becuase you believe and post something that uses estimated numbers at the level of those opinion piecies you post not make they true or acurate now does it

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[kallend 1,654]

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>proof?

Dead bodies are pretty good proof for people who live in the reality-based world.

How about some names?

Just cause somebody says those are the numbers does not make them true.

Are you seriously trying to deny that coal miners die in mine explosions, and from black lung disease?

Seriously?

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rushmc 18]

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>proof?

Dead bodies are pretty good proof for people who live in the reality-based world.

How about some names?

Just cause somebody says those are the numbers does not make them true.

Are you seriously trying to deny that coal miners die in mine explosions, and from black lung disease?

Seriously?

Nope

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[kallend 1,654]

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>proof?

Dead bodies are pretty good proof for people who live in the reality-based world.

How about some names?

Just cause somebody says those are the numbers does not make them true.

Are you seriously trying to deny that coal miners die in mine explosions, and from black lung disease?

Seriously?

Nope

So you don't really need names, do you?

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[billvon 2,446]

>How about some names?


* Brookie Mae Adkins, 31, Lundale, WV
* Lonnie Lee Adkins, 7, Lundale, WV
* Mary Jane Adkins, 5, Lundale, WV
* David B. Adkins, Sr., 27, Lorado, WV
* David B. Adkins, Jr., 4, Lorado, WV
* Steven Albright, 17, Lorado, WV
* Sylvia Albright, 39, Lorado, WV
* Janice Bailey, 32, Saunders, WV
* Kimberly K. Bailey, 6, Saunders, WV
* Jason Bailey, Jr., 11, Saunders, WV
* Rhoda Rene Bailey, 8, Saunders, WV
* Carla J. Bailey, 18 months, Saunders, WV
* James Bailey, Jr., 16, Amherstdale, WV
* John H. Bailey, 58, Lundale, WV
* Eleanor Bailey, 44, Lundale, WV
* Milton Baker, 71, Lundale, WV
* Effie Baker, 68, Lundale, WV
* Joyce Bartram, 40, Lundale, WV
* Betty Lee Black, 51, Lundale, WV
* Edith Blankenship, 61, Lorado, WV
* Rebecca Broady, 15, Lundale, WV
* Donna Sue Browning, 21, Lundale, WV
* Norman B. Browning, 3, Lundale, WV
* James Brunty, 82, Kistler, WV
* Dessie Butcher, 57, Lundale, WV
* Leonard Butcher, 66, Lundale, WV
* Ballard Carter, 36, Lundale, WV
* Janice H. Carter, 29, Lundale, WV
* Matthew Carter, 6, Lundale, WV
* Lillian S. Carter, 3, Lundale, WV
* Margaret L. Davis, 35, Stowe, WV
* Mary Jane Davis, 8, Stowe, WV
* Willie Dempsey, 42, Lorado, WV
* Aletha V. Dempsey, 38, Lorado, WV
* Berma Jo Dickerson, 20, Lundale, WV
* Steven T. Dickerson, 18 months, Lundale, WV
* James Dillon, 32, Lorado, WV
* Thelma Dillon, 36, Lorado, WV
* Curtis Dillon, 10, Lorado, WV
* Sharon Dillon, 13, Lorado, WV
* Darla Dillon, 5, Lorado, WV
* Howard Dillon, 8, Lorado, WV
* Ruth Ann Elkins, 29, Lundale, WV
* Judy Ferguson, 27, Lundale, WV
* Connie S. Ferguson, 18 months, Lundale, WV
* Martha E. Gunnells, 21, Robinette, WV
* David Gunnells, 3, Robinette, WV
* Jessie Gunnels, 1, Robinette, WV
* Etta P. Hatfield, 60, Lundale, WV
* Layton O. Hatfield, 50, Lundale, WV
* Ruth B. Hatfield, 53, Lundale, WV
* Steven Hatfield, 16, Lundale, WV
* Albert O. Hedinger, 34, Godby, WV
* Angela J. Hopson, 2, Crites, WV
* Margaret Y. Jarrell, 42, Lundale, WV
* Karen Jarrell, 16, Lundale, WV
* Patrick Jarrell, 24, Lundale, WV
* William L. Jarrell, 50, Lundale, WV
* Lottie May Jarrell, 45, Lundale, WV
* Andrew Johnston, 73, Crites, WV
* Grace Kennedy, 71, Easley, SC (visiting relative)
* Gary M. King, 24, Lundale, WV
* Sharon A. Lester, 25, Saunders, WV
* Denise Lester, 3, Saunders, WV
* Norman Lester, 24, Saunders, WV
* Dennatta Lester, 5 to 7, Saunders, WV
* Opal Lester, 45, Saunders, WV
* Barry K. Lester, 15, Saunders, WV
* Rita J. Lester, 16, Saunders, WV
* Mary B. Marcum, 44, Latrobe, WV
* Diana L. McCoy, 18, Amherstdale, WV
* Kimberly McCoy, 3, Amherstdale, WV
* Jesse Messer, 35, Lorado, WV
* Augusta Miller, 69, Pardee, WV
* Robert Murray, 71, Lundale, WV
* Wandell Osborne, Sr., 37, Lundale, WV
* Jeanette Osborne, 35, Lundale, WV
* Regina Osborne, 12, Lundale, WV
* Carolyn Osborne, 20 months, Lundale, WV
* Geneva Osborne, 11, Lundale, WV
* Wandell Osborne, Jr., 15, Lundale, WV
* Henrietta Owens, 22, Lundale, WV
* Thomas Owens, 3, Lundale, WV
* Herbert Peters, 71, Pardee, WV
* Martha Peters, 71, Pardee, WV
* Callis Perry, 81, Pardee, WV
* Margie M. Prince, 42, Amherstdale, WV
* Macie Queen, 54, Lorado, WV
* Otis Ramey, 49, Latrobe, WV
* Mattie Ramey, 45, Latrobe, WV
* Virgie A. Ramey, no age give, Latrobe, WV
* Marvel R. Scarberry, 73, Lundale, WV
* Goldie Sipple, 38, about 38, Lorado, WV
* Anita Smith, about 17, Lundale, WV
* Florencio Sosa, 65, Lorado, WV
* Mary M. Sosa, 46, Lorado, WV
* Gladys Staton, 25, Lundale, WV
* Kevin Staton, 1, Lundale, WV
* Della Trent, 69, Saunders, WV
* Johnny Trent, 32, Saunders, WV
* Gene Trent, 26, Saunders, WV
* Henry Trent, 49, Saunders, WV
* Wanda Trent, 39, Saunders, WV
* Betty Frances Vernatter, 4, Lorado, WV
* Thomas Vernatter, 65, Latrobe, WV
* Ethel B. Vernatter, 65, Latrobe, WV
* Roby L. Waugh, 45, Lundale, WV
* James L. Waugh, 11, Lundale, WV
* Grady M. Waugh, 18, Lundale, WV
* Donald Waugh, 20, Lundale, WV
* Larry K. Wauch, 5, Lundale, WV
* April E. White, 11, Lundale, WV
* Dora Wiley, 60, Latrobe, WV
* Richard Wiley, 78, Crites, WV
* Frank Lee Workman, 69, Lorado, WV
* Dorinda L. Adkins, 3 months, Lorado, WV
* Samuel Carter, 20 months, Lundale, WV
* Roscoe Clay, 74, Lorado, WV
* James N. Davis, 2, Stowe, WV
* Nancy Hopson, 1, Crites, WV
* Donald McCoy, Jr., 18 months, Amherstdale, WV
* Kathy Waugh, 8 months, Lundale, WV
* Three unidentified babies (no names, so maybe in your world they don't count)

[turtlespeed 212]

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It's not a tax. It is a purchase of a valuable good for due consideration. That's what an auction is. Capitalism, apparently you don't like it much.

You said

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In my plan, the money raised by the auction would go directly into debt repayment. Would that satisfy your concerns?

And I replied with cut spending and not taxing more. Seems like a foreign oncept with the govt these days. Dont spend what you dont have.

Wait aminute . . . if it's not a tax . . . how does it repay debt?

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[Southern_Man 0]

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You should learn a little history. Free market Republicans pretty much invented "cap and trade". And it has been proven to work.

www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/Presence-of-Mind-Blue-Sky-Thinking.html

I know about the history of cap and trade regulations. Please don't paint me w/ the Republican brush, it offends me.

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[Southern_Man 0]

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Of course you are right, the carbon credit market would be created by regulation. It is not exactly orange juice, since ultimately people buy orange juice to drink. But do you really think that commodities markets are not already maintained by the government? Why is government paying farmers not to farm? Is that capitalism? We haven't ever had pure capitalism, and I'm pretty sure no one with any sense wants it anyway. The only role the government would have in the carbon market is deciding how many credits are available at any given time. Pretty much like the currency markets that exist today. There is absolutely no demand for currency today, except that businesses are required to trade in money to avoid taxes and other penalties. The carbon market would be just as artificial as the currency market. Carbon credits would be like the dollar bills in your wallet. You can trade them for other things, and if you don't need them, you can sell them to someone else. You don't want to go back to the barter system, do you?

(Yes, I realize it is not a perfect parallel, but I'm just trying to show that the carbon market is no more artificial than other markets in existence today)

Well, in some sense you are right, in that even in a libertarian utopia the parties are dependent on the government to enforce contracts, so even that is artificial in a sense.

I'm not entirely against the idea of carbon credits, as it forces corporations (and users) to be responsible for the cost externalities of their mode of power production, rather than foisting it off on general fund revenue from all taxpayers. There is some merit to the idea but let's not pretend that it is an example of capitalism even though it may be more market based and productive than some other forms of regulation and prohibition.

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[DanG 1]

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Wait aminute . . . if it's not a tax . . . how does it repay debt?

I suppose if you want to charaterize every amount of money paid to a government entity as a tax, then it is a tax. Of course, that is a lousy definition. When you pay a tax, you don't receive a valuable good or service in return. When you buy a carbon credit, you do. You can turn around and resell that credit at whatever price the market will bear. You can't do that with your tax return.

To look at it another way, I went to a public university. I never considered my tuition to be a tax because I received a valuable service in return. If you want to call my tuition a tax, then I suppose buying carbon credits is a tax, but I think you're stretching the definition for rhetorical purposes.

- Dan G