Gay group discriminates against Bisexuals

[RonD1120 58]

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His usage is derogatory. Read a few of his posts. Seething with intolerance and hatred.

I'll own up to intolerance but not hatred. I do not hate homosexuals. I feel sorry for them the same way I feel sorry for addicts who just can't seem to break free.

This thread bounces back and forth between the macrocosm and the microcosm. In the latter case, if I have a homosexual client, I can only help the client work toward his self determined goals.

In the macro discussion, I have an opinion and a philosophy regarding homosexual choice. My posts in this thread are in the general discussion arena and my opinion is not negotiable.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[jakee 1,271]

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One of my tactics to confront denial was to propose the following examination:

Does your behavior cause a problem with your 1) personal health; 2) family relationships; 3) employment; 4) social interaction? If you answered yes to any of the questions, then you have a problem. It is your problem and you must take responsibility for yourself and your problem.

That's an interesting set of criteria. Lets look at an example;

Dave and Bob are a homosexual couple. Dave grew up in 'Frisco and his family and friends fully accept his sexuality. He answers no to the above questions. Bob grew up in Alabama and his family and friends have refused to talk to him unless he turns straight. He answers yes to two of the above questions.

Does Bob have a mental health problem that Dave doesn't?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jakee 1,271]

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Not quite, the Christophobia article was written by a Christian for Christian readers. The message was for Christians to take responsibility for themselves.

You are joking, right? I'm sure you must be, but I just need to check.

I mean, otherwise how would use of the word 'Christophobia' represent Christians taking responsibility forn themselves while use of the word 'homophobia' is symptomatic of gays passing the buck?

How could Christians in the USA legitimately be called 'victims' of secularism when for gays and anyone else it's their own behaviour that causes the problems?

How could Christians genuinely complain of bigotry against themselves when for gays and others it's... well, you get the picture?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Shotgun 1]

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That is a decent example of projection. Refusing to accept personal responsibility for a problem and projecting the cause outward.

Sort of like your "Christophobia" thread.

Not quite, the Christophobia article was written by a Christian for Christian readers. The message was for Christians to take responsibility for themselves.

OK. So if a gay person writes an article called "Homophobia" to encourage other gay people to take responsibility for themselves (while listing all of the ways that society is against them, as the Christophobia article did), would you call that projection?

[RackJR 0]

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I'll own up to intolerance but not hatred. I do not hate homosexuals.

I just watched "Religulous" yesterday. There's a segment that touches on this.

Does god hate homosexuals Ron?

Say what you mean. Do what you say.

[mdrejhon 8]

I remember the famous "Rainbow Boogie" Speaker Corner thread:
Why is there a need for a "gay day" for skydiving? Or any other kind of "day"?
(Posted by someone Feb 21, 2006, after Rainbow Boogie 2006 announced. It extended, way out, to 23 pages long...!)

Rainbow Boogie never was gay-exclusive, but our aim was to unify all the world's gay/les/bi/trans skydivers (and supporters), so at the time we used a "Gay Day" tagline. Over the years, Rainbow Boogie has evolved, so our 3rd event this year doesn't really highlight "gay day" anymore. In fact it ended up a majority of the on-site organizing for 2009 was spontaneously by the enthusiac straight regular jumpers at Skydive Cross Keys, including these straight girls [warning NSFW photo]

Even our Facebook Event RSVP page has a tagline: "100% Hetero Friendly".
This year event is much bigger. It has snowballed unexpectedly, even among the straight jumpers, (expected more than double attendance) to the point, that some of us are believing we may eventually become Cross Key's biggest annual boogie eventually, if not this year.

[RonD1120 58]

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OK. So if a gay person writes an article called "Homophobia" to encourage other gay people to take responsibility for themselves (while listing all of the ways that society is against them, as the Christophobia article did), would you call that projection?

No, I don't think so. The key concept is the placement of responsibility for personal feelings. For example, do I feel bad because you say bad things about me? Or, do I feel bad because I don't know how to deal with what you say about me?

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[RonD1120 58]

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I'll own up to intolerance but not hatred. I do not hate homosexuals.

I just watched "Religulous" yesterday. There's a segment that touches on this.

Does god hate homosexuals Ron?

Oh no, not by any means. God hates sin.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[GaVak 0]

Missing is the 'who cares' option. People and labels ... they want to feel like there is some sort of 'I'm special' connotation to the exclusive membership to some group. If it's private group, they have right to exclude on hair color, shoes size, or whatever else makes them feel happy in their exclusive little bubble.

If these people wanted to get into an exclusive club with rules, they should have left their blue-pitch-hitter hats at home and drank the pink Kool-Aid. That, or start a Bi-League and require the partaking of cock AND boobs as retaliation...

~Gav

Life doesn't need reasons, just participants.

D.S.#21

[christelsabine 1]

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....
Does god hate homosexuals Ron?

Oh no, not by any means. God hates sin.

Sneaking out cowardly?

You said, homosexuality is sin.

God hates sin. You just wrote it.

Who is right, you or God? You and your God together, or are you just hiding behind your *God*??

Hard to take you seriously. I think you're just playing a role. A self induced one. Or, perhaps, you're 110 y/o. That'd explain a lot.

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[Shotgun 1]

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OK. So if a gay person writes an article called "Homophobia" to encourage other gay people to take responsibility for themselves (while listing all of the ways that society is against them, as the Christophobia article did), would you call that projection?

No, I don't think so. The key concept is the placement of responsibility for personal feelings. For example, do I feel bad because you say bad things about me? Or, do I feel bad because I don't know how to deal with what you say about me?

Oh, OK.

So if I am working at a place that is very discriminatory against women, and I claim that I have a problem because of the way they are treating me, then I am projecting. What I really should do is accept that my "problem" is being a woman and not expect others to take responsibility for that problem?

Probably not much point in using this analogy, since you believe that homosexuality is a choice, and I do not. Actually I think that being a woman is as much of a choice (if not more so) than homosexuality, as I think it would be an easier "problem" to fix.

(And I don't actually believe that being a woman or being homosexual is a "problem" for most.)

[davjohns 1]

I didn't vote in the poll. I don't see why it matters how you like to have sex if you want to play softball. But, anyone can organize a league any way they want as far as I am concerned. If you want a league that has only people who like missionary position on Tuesdays while singing bluegrass songs, knock yourself out. I'll go elsewhere.

I think too many are making too much of the issue. I don't want anyone telling me how to have sex, so I don't tell others how to have sex. Why should I care? Nor do I think your preference entitles you to anything special. Why would it?

As long as you aren't hurting anyone else, I don't care.

Now - when it comes to softball - if we are being competitive, I want the best players. If we are just having fun, I want the fun people. Unless there is a mandatory post-game orgy, sexual orientation or practices just doesn't seem relevant to me.

I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet..

But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.

[mdrejhon 8]

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I didn't vote in the poll. I don't see why it matters how you like to have sex if you want to play softball. But, anyone can organize a league any way they want as far as I am concerned. If you want a league that has only people who like missionary position on Tuesdays while singing bluegrass songs, knock yourself out. I'll go elsewhere.

Now you got me thinking!

Early Gay Way World Record formation skydive attempts (in 2006, and 2009), did not have any definition as long as you claimed to be LGBT - meaning, bisexuals are included into the Gay Way. I'll have to begin asking for the "Gay Card"* for verification.

We've never had a straight person demand in person to be put on the Gay Way World Record -- but we do have the mixed big way planned after the Gay Way, so I doubt we'll run into this problem...

[Shotgun 1]

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But, anyone can organize a league any way they want as far as I am concerned.

Yeah, that's pretty much how I feel about the OP.

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I don't want anyone telling me how to have sex, so I don't tell others how to have sex. Why should I care? Nor do I think your preference entitles you to anything special. Why would it?

I don't think sexual preference entitles one to anything special either. But then I don't think anyone is trying to obtain anything "special" based on sexual preference.

[jakee 1,271]

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The key concept is the placement of responsibility for personal feelings.

And apparently the way to distinguish where someone places that responsibility is whether they're gay or a straight christian.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Shotgun 1]

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There are a lot of gay people who have the same feelings toward their sexuality. The ones I've met who are closeted are not so because of an internal conflict, but for fear of how they will be accepted in society. In short, society is the one with a gay "problem", not gay people themselves.

I was reading more about this in the American Psychological Association's Appropriate Therapeutic Responses to Sexual Orientation, and I think it goes along with what they call "minority stress":

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There is a growing body of evidence concluding that sexual stigma, manifested as prejudice and discrimination directed at non-heterosexual sexual orientations and identities, is a major source of stress for sexual minorities. This stress, known as minority stress, is a factor in mental health disparities found in some sexual minorities.

They also warn that sexual orientation change efforts (SOCE) are "unlikely to be successful and involve some risk of harm." They say that people who do want to undergo SOCE are usually people with "strongly conservative religious views that lead them to seek to change their sexual orientation." And then they say, "Thus, the appropriate application of affirmative therapeutic interventions for those who seek SOCE involves therapist acceptance, support, and understanding of clients and the facilitation of clients’ active coping, social support, and identity exploration and development, without imposing a specific sexual orientation identity outcome." Probably not too helpful to have a therapist who is reaffirming to them that homosexuality is wrong.

[RonD1120 58]

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OK. So if a gay person writes an article called "Homophobia" to encourage other gay people to take responsibility for themselves (while listing all of the ways that society is against them, as the Christophobia article did), would you call that projection?

No, I don't think so. The key concept is the placement of responsibility for personal feelings. For example, do I feel bad because you say bad things about me? Or, do I feel bad because I don't know how to deal with what you say about me?

Oh, OK.

So if I am working at a place that is very discriminatory against women, and I claim that I have a problem because of the way they are treating me, then I am projecting. What I really should do is accept that my "problem" is being a woman and not expect others to take responsibility for that problem?

Probably not much point in using this analogy, since you believe that homosexuality is a choice, and I do not. Actually I think that being a woman is as much of a choice (if not more so) than homosexuality, as I think it would be an easier "problem" to fix.

(And I don't actually believe that being a woman or being homosexual is a "problem" for most.)

Here, see if this helps.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection

Psychological projection or projection bias (including Freudian Projection) is the unconscious act of denial of a person's own attributes, thoughts, and emotions, which are then ascribed to the outside world, such as to the weather, the government, a tool, or to other people. Thus, it involves imagining or projecting that others have those feelings.

Projection is considered one of the most profound and subtle of human psychological processes, and extremely difficult to work with, because by its nature it is hidden. It is the fundamental mechanism by which we keep ourselves uninformed about ourselves. Humor has great value in any attempt to work with projection, because humor presents a forgiving posture and thereby removes the threatening nature of any inquiry into the truth.

Paleo-anthropologically speaking, this faculty probably had survival value as a self-defense mechanism when homo sapiens' intellectual capacity to detect deception in others improved to the point that the only sure hope to deceive was for deceivers to be self-deceived and therefore behave as if they were being truthful.

One modern, radical view of projections is that they are prerequisites for normal social functioning. Persons incapable of ascribing their own feelings to themselves have great difficulties in understanding them. Unfortunately, human beings have done great harm laboring under the delusions of projection. This is especially true for historical cases of projection between ethnic or cultural groups, for example in Apartheid or Nazism.[citation needed]

In classical psychology, projection is always seen as a defense mechanism that occurs when a person's own unacceptable or threatening feelings are repressed and then attributed to someone else.[1]

An example of this behavior might be blaming another for self failure. The mind may avoid the discomfort of consciously admitting personal faults by keeping those feelings unconscious, and redirect their libidinal satisfaction by attaching, or "projecting," those same faults onto another.

Projection reduces anxiety by allowing the expression of the unwanted unconscious impulses or desires without letting the conscious mind recognize them.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[DanG 1]

This American Life on NPR recently aired a show devoted to the history of the change in the DSM regarding homosexuality. It was very interesting. I'll not try to recount the whole thing, but it was not an overnight change, and there was plenty of evidence to back the removal of homosexuality from the DSM. It was obviously a very charged debate, and some psychiatrists still feel homosexuality itself is a disease. On the other hand, a psychiatrist assisting with an orientation change today would be considered to be committing malpractice.

- Dan G

[RonD1120 58]

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....
Does god hate homosexuals Ron?

Oh no, not by any means. God hates sin.

Sneaking out cowardly?

You said, homosexuality is sin.

God hates sin. You just wrote it.

Who is right, you or God? You and your God together, or are you just hiding behind your *God*??

Hard to take you seriously. I think you're just playing a role. A self induced one. Or, perhaps, you're 110 y/o. That'd explain a lot.

In the Christina faith we say, hate the sin but love the sinner.

Jesus died for our sins and we are all sinners. Through Him is the path out of our sin.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[Shotgun 1]

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OK. So if a gay person writes an article called "Homophobia" to encourage other gay people to take responsibility for themselves (while listing all of the ways that society is against them, as the Christophobia article did), would you call that projection?

No, I don't think so. The key concept is the placement of responsibility for personal feelings. For example, do I feel bad because you say bad things about me? Or, do I feel bad because I don't know how to deal with what you say about me?

Oh, OK.

So if I am working at a place that is very discriminatory against women, and I claim that I have a problem because of the way they are treating me, then I am projecting. What I really should do is accept that my "problem" is being a woman and not expect others to take responsibility for that problem?

Probably not much point in using this analogy, since you believe that homosexuality is a choice, and I do not. Actually I think that being a woman is as much of a choice (if not more so) than homosexuality, as I think it would be an easier "problem" to fix.

(And I don't actually believe that being a woman or being homosexual is a "problem" for most.)

Here, see if this helps.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection

Not really. I was just wanting your opinion on that particular scenario.

[davjohns 1]

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I didn't vote in the poll. I don't see why it matters how you like to have sex if you want to play softball. But, anyone can organize a league any way they want as far as I am concerned. If you want a league that has only people who like missionary position on Tuesdays while singing bluegrass songs, knock yourself out. I'll go elsewhere.

Now you got me thinking!

Early Gay Way World Record formation skydive attempts (in 2006, and 2009), did not have any definition as long as you claimed to be LGBT - meaning, bisexuals are included into the Gay Way. I'll have to begin asking for the "Gay Card"* for verification.

We've never had a straight person demand in person to be put on the Gay Way World Record -- but we do have the mixed big way planned after the Gay Way, so I doubt we'll run into this problem...

And I would never demand to be allowed to join either. As I said, if they want to discriminate against me for my sexual orientation; no worries. I'll go elsewehere.

I think, however, that events that proclaim themselves for LGBT make a bit of a mockery of the claim that attendees are open minded. They are impliedly excluding people due to sexual orientation. Why do people have to be gay skydivers or straight skydivers? Why can't we just jump and have fun?

I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet..

But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.

[GaVak 0]

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And I would never demand to be allowed to join either. As I said, if they want to discriminate against me for my sexual orientation; no worries. I'll go elsewehere.

I think, however, that events that proclaim themselves for LGBT make a bit of a mockery of the claim that attendees are open minded. They are impliedly excluding people due to sexual orientation. Why do people have to be gay skydivers or straight skydivers? Why can't we just jump and have fun?

Hmm, most boogies have some form of anchor theme to them. Just because any one group sponsors an shouldn't imply excluding others (from my perspective). I mean, we are all skydivers -- it's our duty to maintain our world image by finding as many excuses to have parties at our drop zones as we can, right? ;-)

~Gav

Life doesn't need reasons, just participants.

D.S.#21

[davjohns 1]

I like your attitude.

I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet..

But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.

[mdrejhon 8]

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I think, however, that events that proclaim themselves for LGBT make a bit of a mockery of the claim that attendees are open minded. They are impliedly excluding people due to sexual orientation. Why do people have to be gay skydivers or straight skydivers? Why can't we just jump and have fun?

I tend to agree for the most part, and that's what I do. 99% of the time I'm at non-gay events. And we've taken pains to pretty much advertise our event as simply being Rainbow Boogie, or mention the '100% Hetero Friendly' tagline. Last year, some jumpers at the dropzone ordered 87 'I Can't Think Straight' T-Shirts, without my knowledge, and it got all sold out -- more than half of it to straight jumpers too! Pretty much everyone loved the good-natured 'rainbow' atmosphere. We just played along. All the straight jumpers at Cross Keys said we were the funnest boogie of the year last year, word 'funnest boogie' is being quoted Cross Keys website's Calendar. It's almost as if we were half a 'rainbow themed' boogie, more so than a gay boogie at times. One, that just happened to welcome GLBT on the royal red carpet for us -- it was surprising to us how they accepted and supported us too!

That said, people like to be among peers too from time to time. Same reason why POPS exist, or Deaf World Record exist, or Women's World Record, or even a fraternity such as Team Awesome. (Rainbow Skydivers now has a custom fraternity flag too! We'll be putting it up in our corner at the Perris big ways, 6 of us are there.)

We even have skydivers in our GLBT skydivers Facebook group ('Rainbow Skydivers' now over 160 members) who met each other (relationship, friendships) at previous Rainbow Boogies -- something that's much harder when you're the only gay guy on a dropzone. It has spawned off a series of mini-reunions (4 to 6 Rainbow Skydivers) at different dropzones throughout the country.

Sure, we could designate a "gay meet corner" at any future WFFC or SkyFest. Or we could designate a "Rainbow Skydivers Club Meet" at any dropzone. But we wanted our own boogie, and we let the idea first happen as a reality in 2006!

For our 2010 event (August 26-29) Cross Keys is aggressively putting as many skydivers of all kinds (straight too) on the dropzone as possible, too. There is a concurrent 20-way camp (Sponsored by Aerodyne & NSL -- Aerodyne set up a booth at our last boogie), they decided to choose our boogie dates to run this event concurrently with, and also help bring extra planes for the event too. Should help allow a two-Otter mixed big-way too!

But, being the world's only "gay skydiving event" (we still use that line, when marketing to the gay market like a gay magazine), we're attracting a fast growing audience -- even, if it is also simultaneously becoming a "rainbow themed skydive event" that just happens to attract everybody who's not uncomfortable about it, not just a large contingent of gay skydivers. Again, we're 100% hetero friendly too.

[mdrejhon 8]

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I mean, we are all skydivers -- it's our duty to maintain our world image by finding as many excuses to have parties at our drop zones as we can, right? ;-)

I agree too! And we plan to make it an even bigger party this year!