Finally "no open carry" at some businesses

[georgerussia 0]

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There's examples of those on those pages, and you've been given the links before.

Prove it. Show us those examples.

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[georgerussia 0]

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Any jury that would find me guilty of any wrong doing for this is F'd!
I could see it happen in California.... possibly the only place in the US.

I bet this is not different from what everyone else is saying :) and I wonder whether jury of your peers would decide differently in NYC, Chicago or DC.

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Really? It is the same thing as an ADT sign in your front lawn. You don't even need the security system just that sign and it does wonders.

It may do exactly the opposite "wonder" - if you have a security system, it means there is something valuable there.

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If you walk in to rob a place and you see a guy with a gun you are telling me that it might make a guy think... lets do this some place else?

If this was true, no gun store would ever be robbed.

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[aresye 0]

I've recently received my concealed carry permit for FL, and since that day I've carry concealed everywhere it's lawful for me to do so. I'm not much of a supporter for open carry, because a lot of the open carry supporters are 2A over-obsessed. It's not a step in the right direction though, to ban open carry. People who fear guns will continue to push for more and more laws, until eventually all the guns are banned from their area. Well, at least for law-abiding citizens.

There's always a little bit I don't understand from gun-control freaks. Yes I understand their logic, but in today's society, it's not possible. Do I hope for wold peace one day? Of course. I'm not a fan of violence, and neither are the majority of gun owners. Unfortunately, there is evil in this world, and they are the criminals. Note that word: CRIMINAL It means they commit crimes! Committing a crime is breaking the law, so how does the math somehow add up in your heads that having laws against carrying guns means that a person intent of breaking another law is not going to do the same? Bad guys will always have guns...period. From the huge arsenals of organized crime, to the small pistol carried by a mugger. A simple look at history shows that some of the worst mass-shootings in our time, were done in places where it's illegal to carry. Some people don't even want armed LEO's in their children's schools. Now that leaves them pretty much entirely defenseless, if the worst comes to happen.

Now I completely respect everyone's viewpoints. As I've said earlier, I understand the logic. The downside is we live in a dangerous world, with bad people. That's reality. Banning concealed carry, and open carry, is taking away the weapons from a law-abiding citizen, who likely bought them in the first place to save you and your loved ones from a bad guy. I like knowing that if I'm ever in a situation like a mall shooting, I can at least do something to end the threat, and save people's lives. Now I'm not a war junkie, vigilante, survivalist, or any other names that gun control freaks have called me before, including some of my friends. Yes, I will admit that there are some people who have an attitude like that, but for the most part they don't, and the ones that do, eventually wake-up and find out that a violent shootout is nothing like the movies or games, and it's a very harsh atmosphere that only your training and equipment can get you out of, hopefully with no post-traumatic stress.

When I carry, I have a heightened state of awareness. I double-check everything before I walk out my door:

1. License in pocket.
2. Round in chamber.
3. Full magazine plus extra mag.
4. Weapon properly concealed, decocked, and securely holstered.

I recite the 4 weapon safety rules word for word, practice on the range with a variety of mock-situations I might be faced with, including reloading and shooting with 1 hand, should my other hand become incapacitated in a real-life encounter.

Yeah, I'm certainly a gun-toting, paranoid, vigilantic 2A nut case that wants to carry my gun around everywhere. The majority of concealed carry holders are very professional, very unassuming, and carry for the purpose of protecting the lives of their loved ones, and others.

Now for all of you who still want all 2A rights taken away, or reserved for MIL/LEO only, here's a scenario:

Your in line at a coffee shop on a busy morning, wondering what you're going to order. All of the sudden, a man with a gun comes in, ordering everybody to the floor, and proceeds to rob the cashier, who complies.

In the above scenario, if the man decides to shoot half the people in the room, there isn't one thing you can do about it, except possibly try to rouse everybody to overwhelm the attacker. Good luck with that. Most people are frozen to inaction in this kind of situation, like the dozen+ onlookers who just watched a high-school girl get gang-raped outside her school, and did nothing.

This whole scenario, including a violent shooting, would likely last less than 3min, before the attacker flees. Most police response times are much, much longer than 3min, so the bad guy gets away, never gets caught, and commits a similar crime a month later. Now what if somebody was carrying concealed? As I've said before, they're very unassuming. It could be that father in the corner enjoying hot chocolate with his kids, or the young college graduate chatting it up with his date. So lets continue with the scenario, this time with a concealed carry holder:

...once the man receives all the money, he shoots the cashier. Could have been to prevent a witness, or that he was full of adrenaline, and not thinking clearly. Immediately as he shoots the cashier, another shot comes from across the room, bringing the man down to the floor. His weapon is taken away from him, and is held until the police arrive. The cashier's wound was treated, and the bad guy was taken into custody.

Now every situation is different, but if the robber had murderous intentions, or just simply was a violent sociopath, the scenario could have been much, much worse had there not been a concealed holder present. Possibly saving dozens of lives.

If this coffee shop banned the carry of firearms, how many people could have died? You think this armed robber would obey a no firearms law? Not a chance.

For your amusement, here's a video and an article:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7pGt_O1uM8

http://www2.timesdispatch.com/rtd/news/national/article/74-year-old_n.c._state_senator_shoots_wounds_intruder_at_his_home/287987/P10/ - Note: This senator was very anti-gun.

Skydiving: You either learn from other's mistakes, or they'll learn from yours.

[georgerussia 0]

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I'm sorry - I was mistaken. My numbers above WERE for robberies and not all violent crime.

Do you have any references to confirm this number?

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I'll guarantee you that, absent the publicity, the majority of the public would NOT notice, given a reasonable attempt to minimize the visual impact.

This is not the case here. We're discussing the real situation, which already happened - and all the mess started exactly because too many people noticed it. It is also questionable where is the line between minimizing the visual impact and violating the law requirements.

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Bull. If you don't get up fairly close on a revolver, you can't tell if it's loaded. With a semi-auto, all you can tell is if a magazine is inserted.

A law-abiding person in California can only open carry an unloaded gun, so a criminal doesn't even have to look. If the criminal is especially worried, he might call 911 and report "someone with a gun in a store", cops will come and check the gun to make sure it is indeed unloaded (happened as well).

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Yeah, that robber is REALLY worried about the cop having legal representation and financial support from the police union.

They are. If a cop shoots someone in a questionable situation, they'd be on a paid leave while the union-paid attorneys explain the case. For average Joe in the same situation he might spend some time in jail if he can't afford bail, and all he would get is a public defender - not exactly a match. I'm not even talking about the case where average Joe actually got wounded while shooting the robber - who is going to pay for that?

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[rhaig 0]

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It may do exactly the opposite "wonder" - if you have a security system, it means there is something valuable there.

curious...

do you have any (or can you go find any) numbers to back that? Or are you just spraying again trying to stir shit?

--
Rob

[AggieDave 6]

I think of the 4 officers who were caught in condition white at a coffee shop in Washington. A CHL could have saved lives that day.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[rhaig 0]

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Now for all of you who still want all 2A rights taken away, or reserved for MIL/LEO only, here's a scenario:

or how about this one:

You're eating dinner at your local cafeteria. Someone drives a truck through the front window, and gets out screaming about what the government has done to him and then he starts shooting.

You end up hiding behind a table with your parents realizing that you left your handgun in the car because it was illegal for you to carry it into the restaurant.

The man from the truck continues to shoot people as your father gets up and tries to subdue the shooter. Your father is killed in the process.

The shooter reloads and keeps shooting people. Including your mother. You think to yourself that your handgun is 100 feet away, but you didn't bring it in because you wanted to obey the law.

Now you regret abiding by that law instead of carrying your pistol with you into the restaurant.

What would you do if that happened to you?

--
Rob

[aresye 0]

Actually, a very popular story to illustrate that point exactly:

A police officer from a town who's name is escaping me, never carried in church while off-duty, because he considered it wasn't appropriate in a place of worship. Well, eventually, one day a gunman opens fire, killing a large number of people, including the officer's own son. He believes that had he carried concealed that day, he could have saved every one of those lives. Something he has to live with for the rest of his life.

He now carries everywhere he goes, including church, as do I.

Skydiving: You either learn from other's mistakes, or they'll learn from yours.

[mnealtx 0]

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I'm sorry - I was mistaken. My numbers above WERE for robberies and not all violent crime.

Do you have any references to confirm this number?

FBI crime stats.

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I'll guarantee you that, absent the publicity, the majority of the public would NOT notice, given a reasonable attempt to minimize the visual impact.

This is not the case here. We're discussing the real situation, which already happened - and all the mess started exactly because too many people noticed it. It is also questionable where is the line between minimizing the visual impact and violating the law requirements.

And I'm talking about REAL LIFE, not some rally.

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Bull. If you don't get up fairly close on a revolver, you can't tell if it's loaded. With a semi-auto, all you can tell is if a magazine is inserted.

A law-abiding person in California can only open carry an unloaded gun, so a criminal doesn't even have to look. If the criminal is especially worried, he might call 911 and report "someone with a gun in a store", cops will come and check the gun to make sure it is indeed unloaded (happened as well).

Yeah, that's EXACTLY what he's gonna do - call the cops to come to the place he's gonna rob. /sarc

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Yeah, that robber is REALLY worried about the cop having legal representation and financial support from the police union.

They are. If a cop shoots someone in a questionable situation, they'd be on a paid leave while the union-paid attorneys explain the case. For average Joe in the same situation he might spend some time in jail if he can't afford bail, and all he would get is a public defender - not exactly a match. I'm not even talking about the case where average Joe actually got wounded while shooting the robber - who is going to pay for that?

Show your cite proving this.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[tsisson 0]

Holy cow this is exhausting...

The good news is...I live in Arizona, where I can openly carry a firearm...or carry it concealed. I don't carry for anyone's protection but my own (and my loved one's).

I sincerely hope I never am in a situation where I'd need it to defend myself...but God Help Me if I don't have it when I need it.

Sort of like the skydiving/aviation saying..."It's better to be on the ground wishing you were in the air, than in the air wishing you were on the ground".

"Better to have my gun and not need it...than need my gun and not have it."

Contrary to some people's beliefs...my firearm is not going around shooting itself in the air, or getting stolen because I leave it on window sills in the house. It never gets pointed at anything I don't intend to destroy - it's always treated like it's loaded - and it's not a show and tell object.

With all that said...it's legal for me to own, and a tool in my belt to enable my God given right to defend myself and my family. So whine and cry all you want, you are NOT TAKING MY GUNS.

[georgerussia 0]

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curious...
do you have any (or can you go find any) numbers to back that?

If I had, I would say "will do" instead of "may do". But it's not really different from your opinion that ADT sign "does wonders".

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[georgerussia 0]

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Unfortunately, there is evil in this world, and they are the criminals. Note that word: CRIMINAL It means they commit crimes!

Well, this has been discussed more than once (sorry, you're not original). Basically criminals are everywhere, and in most countries people manage to somehow survive - and often have lower crime rate than U.S. - without keeping and carrying guns. Violent crime in gun-restricted NYC is less than in gun-friendly Houston/Dallas (I'm not even mentioning St. Louis or Detroit).

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Committing a crime is breaking the law, so how does the math somehow add up in your heads that having laws against carrying guns means that a person intent of breaking another law is not going to do the same?

Indeed they would. You are completely right - a criminal would have little respect just to the law which does not allow him to buy guns. What is your proposed solution for that? Mine is to physically restrict the amount of guns criminals would be able to get. It will also cover cases like Jing Hua Wu, who - being non-criminal - was able to buy a gun, and then shoot three people after being fired from his job. Such restrictions work well in Europe, as there is significantly less gun crime there.

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Banning concealed carry, and open carry, is taking away the weapons from a law-abiding citizen, who likely bought them in the first place to save you and your loved ones from a bad guy.

This doesn't seem to be really the case. I already asked for news reports which would support such statements, and got nothing so far.

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Now for all of you who still want all 2A rights taken away, or reserved for MIL/LEO only, here's a scenario:

Is it a real-life scenario, and if yes, how long ago did it occur? I can counter it with at least three situations already happening when a law-abiding gun owner somehow went crazy and shot someone

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If this coffee shop banned the carry of firearms, how many people could have died? You think this armed robber would obey a no firearms law? Not a chance.

Now how many of such crimes happen in those countries in Europe where gun ownership is so severely restricted that a criminal could be sure there are nobody with a concealed gun?

Just look on a bunch of crazy gun crimes committed during last week:

Crazy Gunman shoots 20 rounds in Farm King store Macomb, Ill

Sandy man arrested in Gresham club shooting

Community shocked, saddened by massacre

Grandfather: Money led to family shooting

This is not a scenario, but a real-life news reports. Note that none of them seems to be a hardcore criminal who commits crimes for living (maybe except the first one, but it's not clear yet) - they more look like some crazy lunatics. How are you planning to prevent things like that from happening?

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[georgerussia 0]

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You're eating dinner at your local cafeteria. Someone drives a truck through the front window, and gets out screaming about what the government has done to him and then he starts shooting.

If the guns are restricted, he cannot get any and does not start shooting.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[JohnRich 4]

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If the guns are restricted, he cannot get any...

Well there's your wrong thinking, right there.

[georgerussia 0]

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Well there's your wrong thinking, right there.

Nope. We're not talking about hardcore criminals with underground connections - we're talking about average Joes going crazy.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[georgerussia 0]

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Do you have any references to confirm this number?

FBI crime stats.

This is too vague. Please provide the reference.

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And I'm talking about REAL LIFE, not some rally.

Well, in REAL LIFE what happened is that a lot of people have seen it, and called cops and this made news.

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Yeah, that's EXACTLY what he's gonna do - call the cops to come to the place he's gonna rob. /sarc

Why not? Cops are not gonna stay there forever.

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Show your cite proving this.

Dude, we're discussing a hypothetical situation. When you gonna understand that it is not possible to prove something which MAY happen until it actually happens?

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[rhaig 0]

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curious...
do you have any (or can you go find any) numbers to back that?

I figured it was an opinion. I'm ok with that. Just wondered if you'd seen ore recalled reading it somewhere. That's all.

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If I had, I would say "will do" instead of "may do". But it's not really different from your opinion that ADT sign "does wonders".

Not my opinion. You're mis-remembering.

--
Rob

[rhaig 0]

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You're eating dinner at your local cafeteria. Someone drives a truck through the front window, and gets out screaming about what the government has done to him and then he starts shooting.

If the guns are restricted, he cannot get any and does not start shooting.

no, in this scenario, guns aren't illegal. read the rest of it and you'll see that our main character left her gun in the car where she was legally allowed to.

I expected you to say that this would never happen. How unpredictable of you (well, kinda)

--
Rob

[georgerussia 0]

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I figured it was an opinion. I'm ok with that. Just wondered if you'd seen ore recalled reading it somewhere. That's all.

I'd say it would be extremely hard to get this kind of information, and even if done, its validity is still questionable. How trustworthy are criminals in jail? Probably not so.

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Not my opinion. You're mis-remembering.

Indeed, it was Rstanley0312's opinion. I apologize for that.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[georgerussia 0]

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no, in this scenario, guns aren't illegal. read the rest of it and you'll see that our main character left her gun in the car where she was legally allowed to.

My response to this is that this situation is much less likely to happen when the guns are restricted.

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I expected you to say that this would never happen. How unpredictable of you (well, kinda)

No, this may happen - crazy people with guns are indeed there. I will however disagree that the proper way to handle this situation is to bring a gun into restaurant. The proper way is to make it extremely hard for such people to get guns and ammo. Looking on Europe you can see that it works - much less crime committed by gun owners who went nuts and started shooting people after getting fired or not being able to pay for college.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[mnealtx 0]

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Do you have any references to confirm this number?

FBI crime stats.

This is too vague. Please provide the reference.

Try typing "FBI crime stats" into Google and click the first link.

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And I'm talking about REAL LIFE, not some rally.

Well, in REAL LIFE what happened is that a lot of people have seen it, and called cops and this made news.

No, at a POLITICAL RALLY a lot of people saw it, wet their pants and called the police to come save them.

Real life is a bit different.

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Yeah, that's EXACTLY what he's gonna do - call the cops to come to the place he's gonna rob. /sarc

Why not? Cops are not gonna stay there forever.

Why wouldn't the robber just go someplace else and not risk being seen/arrested?

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Show your cite proving this.

Dude, we're discussing a hypothetical situation. When you gonna understand that it is not possible to prove something which MAY happen until it actually happens?

Dude - you said, and I quote: "They are". Quit making definitive statements if you're referring to stuff pulled out of your ass and you'll quit looking quite so much the fool.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[georgerussia 0]

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Try typing "FBI crime stats" into Google and click the first link.

There is nothing on this page which confirms that 40% robberies are committed with a gun, so I accept it as your acknowledgment that you made it up.

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Why wouldn't the robber just go someplace else and not risk being seen/arrested?

Once the cops left, there is little risk.

[mnealtx 0]

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Try typing "FBI crime stats" into Google and click the first link.

There is nothing on this page which confirms that 40% robberies are committed with a gun, so I accept it as your acknowledgment that you made it up.

Wrong - like usual, when you try to discuss stats.

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Why wouldn't the robber just go someplace else and not risk being seen/arrested?

Once the cops left, there is little risk.

And while the cop is there, there's MORE risk. You're eventually coming to some sort of POINT, right?

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Dude - you said, and I quote: "They are". Quit making definitive statements if you're referring to stuff pulled out of your ass and you'll quit looking quite so much the fool.

That's what happens when you quote out of context. Everyone else, however, can read the actual post and see it.

You mean your post where you made a direct statement about what criminals thought?

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And for a person who completely refuses to provide any evidence to support everything you said during the last few days (posts #89, #101, #104 where you were asked for evidence and provided nothing in return) your tone is extremely rude. Please contain yourself.

Does my sarcasm hurt your feelings? Tough shit - pull up your big boy pants and deal with it.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[JohnRich 4]

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If the guns are restricted, he cannot get any...

Well there's your wrong thinking, right there.

Nope. We're not talking about hardcore criminals with underground connections - we're talking about average Joes going crazy.

Right, because average people could never get hold of anything that the government has banned.
Not drugs, not liquor, not cigarettes, and most certainly not guns!

Really, you are quite humorous. It's fun to just pop in here and bait you every once in a while, just to see how long we can get you to keep on spouting your ridiculous mantra.

[JohnRich 4]

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The proper way is to make it extremely hard for such people to get guns and ammo. Looking on Europe you can see that it works - much less crime committed by gun owners who went nuts and started shooting people...

You mean like Switzerland, where most of the populace has full-auto military machine guns in their homes, and yet, , they don't go around shooting each other every day? How could that be? It's all about the guns, right? And if guns are widespread, then people shoot each other a lot, right? But they don't seem to be doing that in Switzerland. So how does your theory account for this?