To those who favor government health care:

[cloudclimr 0]

I've been in health care for 20 plus years....It's time for some kick-ass reform!

[mnealtx 0]

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I never made the claim that non-compliance was higher in the US - that was all kallend.

Ummm NO it was not. Not even a half-baked attempt at misleading
the forum.

Since we're talking about half-baked attempts at misleading, why don't you go ahead and show where I claimed that American non-compliance was higher than UK non-compliance.

For ONCE in this thread, PROVE it.

See previous post.

Lie.

In comparing US with UK life expectancies YOU brought up the topic of non compliance. Posts 179, 181.

Since you can't prove a difference, are you now claiming it was just a red herring?

That's Lame.

I made NO claim about UK noncompliance. You lie again.

You were comparing the USA with other countries, so why bring up "compliance" if you don't think compliance rates are relevant and you have no data? Just a red herring.

Because, for some idiotic reason, you seem to think that the only place to get advice about diet and exercise is from 'healthcare professionals' and that non-compliance to that advice is somehow an indictment against the US healthcare system, both of which are false.

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Anyhow, now that you ADMIT that you know nothing about relative compliance rates, and your inroduction of compliance into the discussion was just a red herring, you'll need to come up with another explanation for the US's miserable showing compared to countries with universal health care.

I'll admit that I know nothing about your relative compliance strawman, yes.

Still waiting for any proof from you that compliance is somehow the fault of the doctors...or that SocMed doctors are giving out better advice about diet/exercise than American doctors, or that ANY doctor is giving different advice than, say, this guy.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[kallend 1,646]

OK, we are getting somewhere now.

You have no proof that culture has anything to do with the US's miserable life expectancy compared with other developed nations.

You have no proof than Americans are any less complaint to the recommendations of health care professionals than folks in other nations.

You have presented data showing that life expectancy in the US is worse than in the UK until such time as more than 50% of the remaining expected lifespan is covered by Medicare.

You acknowledge that "health" is not the same as "medicine" and, by extension, that health care includes more than medical treatment.

So we are pretty much agreed.

Have a nice evening.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[mnealtx 0]

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OK, we are getting somewhere now.

You have no proof that culture has anything to do with the US's miserable life expectancy compared with other developed nations.

Incorrect. I have studies from CDC and others that show that lifestyle choices have a strong influence on overall health and longevity.

YOU claim that culture has nothing to do with it.

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You have no proof than Americans are any less complaint to the recommendations of health care professionals than folks in other nations.

That's YOUR claim.

My only claim was that Americans are, by and large, not exercising enough and eating healthy diets - this is ALSO borne out by examples I have shown.

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You have presented data showing that life expectancy in the US is worse than in the UK until such time as more than 50% of the remaining expected lifespan is covered by Medicare.

Again, YOUR claim. But feel free to provide PROOF that your theory is, in fact, correct.

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You acknowledge that "health" is not the same as "medicine" and, by extension, that health care includes more than medical treatment.

False. Unless you're going to claim that Bill Phillips and others are now somehow 'healthcare professionals', advice is just that - advice.

I also claim that failure to act on that advice (if given by a medical professional) is not the fault of the medical profession.

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So we are pretty much agreed.

Dream on.

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Have a nice evening.

You too.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[kallend 1,646]

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OK, we are getting somewhere now.

You have no proof that culture has anything to do with the US's miserable life expectancy compared with other developed nations.

Incorrect. I have studies from CDC and others that show that lifestyle choices have a strong influence on overall health and longevity.



Did you miss the bit about "COMPARED WITH OTHER DEVELOPED NATIONS"?





YOU claim that culture has nothing to do with it.




No, I claim that you have no proof that it does although you freqauently make that claim (as you do with gun fatalities too), as compared with other nations.

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You have no proof than Americans are any less complaint to the recommendations of health care professionals than folks in other nations.[/r.eply]

That's YOUR claim.




Nope. I asked you for proof of it, since you brought up the topic of compliance and without comparison your claim is meaningless. You have none



My only claim was that Americans are, by and large, not exercising enough and eating healthy diets - this is ALSO borne out by examples I have shown.

in a post comparing the USA with the UK, it's meaningless without comparable information from the UK. You have none, your statement was a red herring.

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You have presented data showing that life expectancy in the US is worse than in the UK until such time as more than 50% of the remaining expected lifespan is covered by Medicare.

Again, YOUR claim. But feel free to provide PROOF that your theory is, in fact, correct.




It's not a theory, it is exactly what your data shows.

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You acknowledge that "health" is not the same as "medicine" and, by extension, that health care includes more than medical treatment.

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False

???

So you DO believe that "health" = "medicine" after all. OK, it just shows that you are using your own definitions of words.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[mnealtx 0]

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Still no proof, eh? Damn, that must suck. I'm sure it gets tiring for you slinging all that bullshit around - but hey, make sure you eat right, too.

Oh, wait...I wasn't supposed to give you that advice, was I - after all, I'm not a 'healthcare professional'! (Wait - neither is Bill Phillips or many, many others giving the same advice - nevermind!)

Feel free to post again once you have some proof, though.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[kallend 1,646]

You use your own version of logic, you admit you don't understand statistics, and you don't use the same dictionary definitions as the rest of the English speaking world...

I don't have to prove that you are wrong, you have to prove that you are correct when you claim that "lifestyle choices" (your own words) are responsible for the sucky life expectancy stats of Americans compared with other developed nations prior to Medicare being a factor in their lives.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[timmyfitz 0]

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You happen to catch the obesity rates by race? Rates for black and hispanic people (democrats by a large margin) are much higher than the rates for white people.

Wow, I probably need to make a note to myself that Mississippi is full of obese black/hispanic democrats. You just opened my eyes!

That was about as ridicules as your claim "it looks like those are mostly Republicans who do not follow it". State wide polls are of little use when considering the individual.

And yes, by posting this it is making it look as though you are saying(assuming) it is a Republicans problem.

[mnealtx 0]

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I don't have to prove that you are wrong, you have to prove that you are correct when you claim that "lifestyle choices" (your own words) are responsible for the sucky life expectancy stats of Americans compared with other developed nations prior to Medicare being a factor in their lives.

You have yet to prove YOUR claim in any way - I've already given data from CDC and others that show that lifestyle choices are strongly correlated with health issues.

But by all means, keep attacking the messenger so you don't have to actually provide PROOF - it's what you do best, after all.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[kallend 1,646]

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I don't have to prove that you are wrong, you have to prove that you are correct when you claim that "lifestyle choices" (your own words) are responsible for the sucky life expectancy stats of Americans compared with other developed nations prior to Medicare being a factor in their lives.

You have yet to prove YOUR claim in any way - I've already given data from CDC and others that show that lifestyle choices are strongly correlated with health issues.

Nice but futile attempt to weasel. The only person you're fooling with this straw man, is yourself.

The only claim I've made is that you haven't proved yours relating lifestyle choices differences in comparison with other nations that have better life expectancy outcomes. And you haven't. (Your lame attempt to deny that healthcare is not a synonym for medicine is just laughable)

So how about giving us some data that compares the US lifestyle choices with, say, Germany, France, or Japan?

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[mnealtx 0]

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I don't have to prove that you are wrong, you have to prove that you are correct when you claim that "lifestyle choices" (your own words) are responsible for the sucky life expectancy stats of Americans compared with other developed nations prior to Medicare being a factor in their lives.

You have yet to prove YOUR claim in any way - I've already given data from CDC and others that show that lifestyle choices are strongly correlated with health issues.

Nice but futile attempt to weasel. The only person you're fooling with this straw man, is yourself.

The only claim I've made is that you haven't proved yours relating lifestyle choices differences in comparison with other nations that have better life expectancy outcomes. And you haven't. (Your lame attempt to deny that healthcare is not a synonym for medicine is just laughable)

So how about giving us some data that compares the US lifestyle choices with, say, Germany, France, or Japan?

Comparison argument is all you - prove it yourself. I showed that lifestyle factors have a stronger effect on longevity, which was my only claim.

Of course, there's still that little problem of tying patient compliance back to a failure of the medical system that you keep oh-so-conveniently dodging.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[kallend 1,646]

www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3749276#3749276

So you now admit your comment in that post was, in fact, an irrelevant red herring since you have no comparative data on "lifestyle choices" and weren't making a comparison.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[georgerussia 0]

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My only claim was that Americans are, by and large, not exercising enough and eating healthy diets - this is ALSO borne out by examples I have shown.

This is a useless claim in comparing life expectancy with other countries unless you compare it using the same data from other countries. Don't forget that "lifestyle choices" are not limited to exercising and eating. Using only "exercising and eating healthy diets" criteria even Russia should strive ahead of US, but it doesn't happen. However the major factors are completely different - two major factors related to life expectancy are not related at all to exercising and eating, it is alcohol and traffic accidents.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[Ion01 1]

The reality: All this debate is meaningless as there is no grant of power, under the constitution, for the government to have any involvement in healthcare.

This is such an inescapable fact that proponents of the government involvement have this to say:

Judge Napolitano: where in the constitution is the federal government charged with maintaining people's health?

Congressman Clyburn: There's nothing in the constitution that says the federal government has anything to do with most of the stuff we do."

CNSNEWS.com: "....where specificallly does the consitution grant congress the authority to enact an individual health insurance mandate?"

Pilosi: "Are you serious? Are you serious?"
(she never answered the question.)

Reporter: "What part of the constitution do you think gives congress the authority to mandate individuals have to purchase health insurance?"

Senator Landrieu: "Well, we're very lucky as memebers of the senate to have constitutional lawyers on our staff, so I'll let them answer that."

These people took an oath. They said this:

I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the constitution of the united states against enemies, foreign and domestic....

So when are they going to start fulfilling thier oath. They won't answer questions about the constitution or they simply state it doesn't give them to power but they do it anyways! Why are people okay with this?

If you don't like the constitution go somewhere else! This is not a democracy! Its a republic!

[jcd11235 0]

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The reality: All this debate is meaningless as there is no grant of power, under the constitution, for the government to have any involvement in healthcare.

That's a tired argument that doesn't withstand scrutiny of SCOTUS case law. Congress has the necessary authority to get involved in healthcare under the general welfare clause of Article 1, Section 8 of the Constitution.

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If you don't like the constitution go somewhere else! This is not a democracy! Its a republic

In my experience, those who cry such things the loudest have the least understanding of the document.

Edit to add: I posted an excerpt from the relevant case law here, when you made the same erroneous assertion.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[mnealtx 0]

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www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3749276#3749276

So you now admit your comment in that post was, in fact, an irrelevant red herring since you have no comparative data on "lifestyle choices" and weren't making a comparison.

Nope. Maybe you should re-read what I actually SAID, and not what you THINK I said. I made no comparison, no matter how much you try to invent one.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[georgerussia 0]

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The reality: All this debate is meaningless as there is no grant of power, under the constitution, for the government to have any involvement in healthcare.

And now, of course, the question is how much your personal opinion on that matter worth?

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Judge Napolitano: where in the constitution is the federal government charged with maintaining people's health?

Andrew P. Napolitano (b. June 6, 1950, in NewaAndrew P. Napolitano (b. June 6, 1950, in Newark, New Jersey) is a former New Jersey Superior Court Judge and now a political and legal analyst for Fox News Channel.

And he of course has a very neutral point of view!

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Congressman Clyburn: There's nothing in the constitution that says the federal government has anything to do with most of the stuff we do."

I did not find the context it was said in. Actually I didn't find any news source either with this quite - everything just points to some blogs which quote each others.

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CNSNEWS.com: "....where specificallly does the consitution grant congress the authority to enact an individual health insurance mandate?"

At least those do not assume it does not.

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Pilosi: "Are you serious? Are you serious?"
(she never answered the question.)

What was the question? You're quoting various sources. Arrange them in some way if they are relevant.

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Reporter: "What part of the constitution do you think gives congress the authority to mandate individuals have to purchase health insurance?"

Senator Landrieu: "Well, we're very lucky as memebers of the senate to have constitutional lawyers on our staff, so I'll let them answer that."

These people took an oath. They said this:

His answer is very reasonable. A member of Congress or Senate so far is not required to have a constitutional law degree to perform their duties. They have lawyers for that

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I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the constitution of the united states against enemies, foreign and domestic....

So when are they going to start fulfilling thier oath. They won't answer questions about the constitution or they simply state it doesn't give them to power but they do it anyways! Why are people okay with this?

Probably because most people use their brain instead of watching fox "news"?

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If you don't like the constitution go somewhere else! This is not a democracy! Its a republic!

If you think Congress violated constitution, then posting in forums is cheap remedy. File a lawsuit. Put your money where your mouth is.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[mnealtx 0]

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The reality: All this debate is meaningless as there is no grant of power, under the constitution, for the government to have any involvement in healthcare.

That's a tired argument that doesn't withstand scrutiny of SCOTUS case law. Congress has the necessary authority to get involved in healthcare under the general welfare clause of Article 1, Section 8 of the Constitution.

Cool, I guess for his next party trick, Obama will require us all to buy a good old General Government Motors auto every 3 years whether we need it or not.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[jcd11235 0]

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Cool, I guess for his next party trick, Obama will require us all to buy a good old General Government Motors auto every 3 years whether we need it or not.

I find it interesting how two branches of government were mentioned in my post, yet you felt the need to reply in order to criticize the third, unmentioned branch. ODS?

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[kallend 1,646]

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www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3749276#3749276

So you now admit your comment in that post was, in fact, an irrelevant red herring since you have no comparative data on "lifestyle choices" and weren't making a comparison.

Nope. Maybe you should re-read what I actually SAID, and not what you THINK I said. I made no comparison, no matter how much you try to invent one.

As others have pointed out, inserting a comment about lifestyle choices without any comparison is a completely meaningless irrelevant red herring when discussing comparisons of life expectancy with other nations.

Please re-read the part in red above. We all noticed that you made no comparison. THAT is what made your comment meaningless.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[georgerussia 0]

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Cool, I guess for his next party trick, Obama will require us all to buy a good old General Government Motors auto every 3 years whether we need it or not.

So are you trying to claim that there are people who will not need health insurance in their life?

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[mnealtx 0]

Wrong again. I claimed that lifestyle choices were a stronger factor than medical care in regards to longevity. That was backed up by various studies and info from the CDC, AHA, etc.

Any talk of 'comparisons' is YOUR collection of strawmen, looking for a brain.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[kallend 1,646]

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Wrong again. I claimed that lifestyle choices were a stronger factor than medical care in regards to longevity. That was backed up by various studies and info from the CDC, AHA, etc.

Any talk of 'comparisons' is YOUR collection of strawmen, looking for a brain.

Irrelevant to the discussion.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[mnealtx 0]

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Wrong again. I claimed that lifestyle choices were a stronger factor than medical care in regards to longevity. That was backed up by various studies and info from the CDC, AHA, etc.

Any talk of 'comparisons' is YOUR collection of strawmen, looking for a brain.

Irrelevant to the discussion.

You're right, your argument WAS irrelevant to the discussion.

Come up with that proof, yet?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[kallend 1,646]

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Wrong again. I claimed that lifestyle choices were a stronger factor than medical care in regards to longevity. That was backed up by various studies and info from the CDC, AHA, etc.

Any talk of 'comparisons' is YOUR collection of strawmen, looking for a brain.

Irrelevant to the discussion.

You're right, your argument WAS irrelevant to the discussion.

Did you learn that style of response in 1st grade or kindergarten?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.