Looks Like ANY Public Option is DOA YES!!!

[mnealtx 0]

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But I am sure they will post it Real Soon Now.

I'm sure they will, too - along with the other dozen or so bills that they've ALREADY posted.

So...where's that FINAL copy of the Dem's bill, again?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[rushmc 18]

Hey billvon. Here is Senator Reid's response to a letter sent by 40 other Senator's to send his/the bill to the CBO for scoring.

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"We are now working to take these publicly available-provisions and meld them together into a single bill. Apart from my decision to include a public option from which states may opt out, no final decisions have been made – and none can be made until we get more information about how CBO would score different combination's. In other words, there is no bill to release publicly – it does not exist."

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 18]

Bill assumes many would pay fines instead of buying HC.

Nice

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he health care reform bill awaiting debate in the House assumes millions of workers and employers would rather pay $167 billion in fines than purchase or provide adequate coverage, according to a recent analysis, raising questions about whether the plan does enough to make insurance affordable.

Though the bill is estimated to expand coverage from the current 83 percent to 96 percent of legal U.S. residents, the windfall of projected penalty payments also exposes a potential contradiction in reform. A significant part of the plan to expand coverage relies financially on fines from the uninsured.

The nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office estimated in its study last week that the House bill would bring in $167 billion over 10 years -- $33 billion from fines paid by individuals who decline to buy insurance, and the rest from employers who don't offer insurance to workers or contribute enough toward premiums.
related links

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House Democrats Set Up Health Care Vote

Ernest Istook, a former Republican congressman from Oklahoma who is now a fellow at the conservative Heritage Foundation, calculated that anywhere between 8 million and 14 million people would end up paying the fines.

This raises a few problems, he said. First, if those millions somehow get covered and don't pay the fine, then the health program is faced with a budget hole.

Second, he said, it speaks to a flaw with the insurance packages that are being offered. "If you say people would rather pay $167 billion in penalties rather than buy insurance under your new plan, what's wrong with your new plan?" he asked.

The answer, Istook said: "It's expensive."

The House plan would create a government-run insurance program intended to help extend coverage. But the plan would allow the government to negotiate rates with providers rather than set artificially low Medicare-style rates -- as House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and other liberal Democrats were hoping to do.

While the negotiated rate structure somewhat assuages the concerns of moderate Democrats and others who projected that a system based on Medicare rates would create an irresistibly cheap public plan that would draw millions away from private coverage and hurt doctors, it also does much less to address cost concerns.

In fact, the CBO report said such a public plan "would typically have premiums that are somewhat higher than the average premiums" for private plans in the newly created insurance marketplace. This is partly because the public plan would likely attract less healthy, and more expensive, enrollees.

In addition, many analysts and lawmakers have warned that private premiums will go up as well as a result of new requirements.

Though the government is offering a bevy of subsidies to make coverage more affordable under the plan, it apparently would not be enough to lure everyone into the system.

Suggestions for reducing the number of people who are insurance-averse are wide-ranging.

Some don't want any fines, emphasizing incentives over penalties. But political momentum in Washington has long since shifted in favor of a requirement to get coverage. President Obama, who opposed such a mandate during the presidential campaign, reversed and supported it during his September address on health care reform to Congress.

Others, especially the health insurance industry, want the fines to be increased.

"If you don't get everybody in, the market reforms don't work and premiums skyrocket for everybody," said Robert Zirkelbach, spokesman with America's Health Insurance Plans, which opposes the House Democratic plan.

Zirkelbach warned that those who choose to pay the penalty will just wait until they get sick to get covered, driving up premiums across the board. "More needs to be done to make coverage affordable."

Zirkelbach dismissed the claim that less penalty revenue would leave the federal government with a budget hole. He said getting more people covered would help bring down health care costs overall and balance out in the end for the government's books.

He doubted, though, that the government plan would have higher premiums. He said the so called public-option would ultimately negotiate rates down to Medicare levels.

Third Way, a think tank that describes itself as part of the "moderate wing of the progressive movement," also released a study saying the mandate cannot be weakened. But it said several changes can be made to expand coverage. The group suggested, among other things, allowing young people to pay lower premiums and allowing people to meet the coverage requirement with even leaner insurance plans.

Democrats are standing by the mandate provisions, though, arguing that some relatively small group of uninsured people is inevitable.

"There's just going to be some people who choose rather to pay (the fine) than to pay for health care," said Stephanie Lundberg, spokeswoman for House Majority Leader Steny Hoyer, D-Md. "There's going to be some people that just philosophically don't want to buy health care."

She said individual responsibility has to be a part of the plan, but that 96 percent coverage is still pretty admirable.

"It expands coverage substantially," Lundberg said.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[likearock 1]

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Let's see, the Democrats have 60 in the Senate, they have to work like hell to pass even a severely limited public option, and you contend they'll be voting in a single payer system if we don't watch out? I want some of what you're smoking.

No, I contend that they are voting in a system that they think will result in a single payer system over time, by introducing a public option that by design will be significantly cheaper than private plans. That is their desire - to have the public option be cheaper to the consumer (not counting the taxpayer money needed to make it cheaper).

Funny how in spite of all your theories, private insurers continue to thrive alongside cheaper public ones in Australia, Brazil, Germany, and Argentina, among other places. Kind of annoying the way hard facts end up trumping all of those interesting "contentions".

[rushmc 18]

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Let's see, the Democrats have 60 in the Senate, they have to work like hell to pass even a severely limited public option, and you contend they'll be voting in a single payer system if we don't watch out? I want some of what you're smoking.

No, I contend that they are voting in a system that they think will result in a single payer system over time, by introducing a public option that by design will be significantly cheaper than private plans. That is their desire - to have the public option be cheaper to the consumer (not counting the taxpayer money needed to make it cheaper).

Funny how in spite of all your theories, private insurers continue to thrive alongside cheaper public ones in Australia, Brazil, Germany, and Argentina, among other places. Kind of annoying the way hard facts end up trumping all of those interesting "contentions".

It is all in the details. Those pointed out here will kill it, as it is intended to

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[mnealtx 0]

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Funny how in spite of all your theories, private insurers continue to thrive alongside cheaper public ones in Australia, Brazil, Germany, and Argentina, among other places.

Odd how you don't mention Canada or Britain - maybe because they're going broke over healthcare? German social services isn't exactly cheap, either - some 40% of income, IIRC from my time living there.

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Kind of annoying the way hard facts end up trumping all of those interesting "contentions".

Isn't it, though?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[likearock 1]

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Funny how in spite of all your theories, private insurers continue to thrive alongside cheaper public ones in Australia, Brazil, Germany, and Argentina, among other places.

Odd how you don't mention Canada or Britain - maybe because they're going broke over healthcare? German social services isn't exactly cheap, either - some 40% of income, IIRC from my time living there.

Once again, last I looked no one was proposing a universal, single payer system in the US. Even if Pelosi, Reed, and Obama did secretly want that to happen, we all know the votes aren't there and won't be in any foreseeable future.

Getting back to the original point, private insurers will not all go out of business as they'd like you to believe and just a quick bit of checking shows this to be true. Private providers coexist just fine with public plans, even some that are single payer, all over the world. If you want to pick on one or two exceptions to that general rule and claim that the sky is falling, I'm sure the Aetna lobby greatly appreciates your support of their profit margins.

[billvon 2,406]

Awkward moment yesterday at an anti-health-care-bill rally.

About 5000 people showed up with the usual stuff (flags, megaphones, a poster showing child Holocaust victims and equating that to Obama's health care plan.) There were plenty of speeches about how evil government-run health care was, and how they would "kill the bill."

Then one of the protesters had a heart attack, and a medical team from the Capitol Physician's Office (a government health care service) responded and stabilized him before transporting him to the hospital.

I wonder if that particular protester has changed his mind about government-run health care? Probably not.

[rushmc 18]

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Awkward moment yesterday at an anti-health-care-bill rally.

About 5000 people showed up with the usual stuff (flags, megaphones, a poster showing child Holocaust victims and equating that to Obama's health care plan.) There were plenty of speeches about how evil government-run health care was, and how they would "kill the bill."

Then one of the protesters had a heart attack, and a medical team from the Capitol Physician's Office (a government health care service) responded and stabilized him before transporting him to the hospital.

I wonder if that particular protester has changed his mind about government-run health care? Probably not.

If this aint the most fucked up twist you have ever tried!!

But,

it is only "awkward" if it against the Dems. If the other way around it is a grassroots movement.

Sick and sad billvon, sick and sad..........

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[billvon 2,406]

>Sick and sad billvon, sick and sad..........

Exactly. Posters of children killed during the Holocaust used to advance your political agenda are examples of a reasonable and legitimate grassroots movement. But a physician's office saving someone's life is "sick and sad." Everyone can see that.

[rushmc 18]

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>Sick and sad billvon, sick and sad..........

Exactly. Posters of children killed during the Holocaust used to advance your political agenda are examples of a reasonable and legitimate grassroots movement. But a physician's office saving someone's life is "sick and sad." Everyone can see that.

Yet another twist

You need help

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[georgerussia 0]

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Yet another twist
You need help

C'mon man, your replies look more and more out of touch. Are you trying to compete with Fox "news" talk hosts? Note that they're paid for that!

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[georgerussia 0]

Just in case someone missed:

House passes health care reform bill

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[Lucky... 0]

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Just in case someone missed:

House passes health care reform bill

Rush.....oh Rushy..... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9sirG0UEGg