Anyone else following the latest Uyghur unrest in Western China?

[nerdgirl 0]

CFR’s got an accessible and well-written backgrounder on Uighurs and China’s Xinjiang Region.

The CFR article seems to suggest a larger potential impact on the economy than I would assert.

Other background notes on China’s actions in the early 2000s against the Uyghur domestic insurgency (or Uighur, depends on which transliteration one prefers), which China considers terrorism.

One of the notable pieces of this latest series of incidents, imo, has been that it hasn't been in the most traditionally strong areas of Uyghur unrest/independence movements. Still in the far northwest of the country, yes, but not in the cities that have been the ‘usual suspects’ for violence/unrest/terrorism/insurgent activity. It might be something like an anti-war protest in conservative Newport Beach, Orange County rather than in front of the Wilshire Blvd Federal Building in Los Angeles or in Santa Monica. Geographically close but populations with substantive differences.

A couple folks have speculated on likelihood of sparking additional protests throughout China. I don’t think so but Chinese domestic politics is not my area of expertise. I am curious as to what/if any limitations have been increased those cities.

What do you think should be the US position w/r/t Uyghurs? Should we have one? None of our business? Support China’s battle against their homegrown Islamic terrorism? Support those who want freedom of religion in the far west of the country? Or something else? Or just don’t care?

Numbers injured/killed seem to vary. Chinese sources suggest >1600 injured, mostly Han Chinese. Fatalities close to 200.

Video from BBC showing violence in Urumqi, China.

The Chinese leadership seems to be asserting the Uyghur movement and the latest violence as a threat to its sovereignty.

Wall Street Journal Op-Ed by Uyghur separatist leader, Ms. Rebiya Kadeer, who resides in the US, “The Real Story of the Uighur Riots: Heavy-handed police tactics by the Chinese turned a peaceful assembly into a bloodbath,” who not unsurprisingly encourages the US to support the Uyghurs.

Response Op-Ed from spokesman for China’s US Embassy, also published in [i[WSJ: “We Are Protecting All Our Citizens, Uighur and Han”

/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[Gawain 0]

I've been hearing sporadic reports on the radio, and the Economist has covered it some, but like you, I'm not well versed in everything that's happening.

While I am not discomforted by seeing thorns in China's side, I'm also not touched or care to support violent "Islamic" movements.

Given what I've seen first-hand, of parts of that world, I'll stand by and note that I am not objective.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[TomAiello 25]

I don't think we should have a position. But then, that's my opinion on most foreign policy questions.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[Frenchy68 0]

The Chinese government has really moved quickly (and harshly) on these events at the national level. Facebook, Twitter, and all the Chinese versions of these two have been blocked (at least to non-VPN users).
Although the government is certainly trying to blame the recent events to Islamic extremists close to AQ, the real reason behind them is probably much deeper. Over the years, the Han population (and influence) has been growing in regions such as Xinjiang and Tibet. Local cultures have are losing grounds, and with it the identity of its people. There is lots of latent resentment from local ethnic groups, and they sporadically lead to unrest. More and more frequently in recent months.
Rather than compare these events to other contemporary uprisings, I think there is much similarities with the opening of colonization of the Midwest and West in 19th Century America. By encroaching deeper and deeper into other cultural grounds, one is bound at times to meet violent resistance. To some locals, it is a matter of cultural survival.
As you mentioned, places such as Kashi (which is being leveled in the name of "improvement") are much more traditional hotbeds of rebellious activity than Urumqi (where the majority of the population is Han Chinese). But the distrust (and dislike) among both ethnic groups
is quite latent, and surely not likely to go away anytime soon...

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

[kelpdiver 2]

the rest of the world powers went through this process in the last century. Maybe it's simple enough to see this happening here as well.

Given said history, seems inappropriate for the other powers to suggest China take any particular action.

[nerdgirl 0]

Thanks for the reply. Was hoping you’d chime in.
I lost my China expert to the US Embassy in Beijing earlier this summer, which is very good for him & good for me in some ways.

Have you noticed any perceptual differences by the folks near you w/r/t this latest series of violence versus those in the early to mid-2000s and versus the most recent Tibetan protests? Or do most folks with whom you interact just not care or is not something that would come up?

Quote

Although the government is certainly trying to blame the recent events to Islamic extremists close to AQ, the real reason behind them is probably much deeper.

Concur.

The whole al Qa'eda angle is interesting on multiple levels. If anything, I see it as further evidence of al Qa'eda's entrepreneurism. The response threat by al Qa'eda in Maghreb (AQIM) was an interesting transnational response. It's not unlike the Somali al Shabab, whose interests are completely domestic. (For those not familiar w/al Shabab, that's the group implicated in the recruitment of young American men of Somali descent that has been in the news recently due to an indictment.)

The origins of the Uyghur unrest/protest/terrorism are separatist/nationalist *not* radical Salafist. But elements of al Qa'eda will appropriate/co-opt/use it to further their radical Salafist ends.

Quote

Rather than compare these events to other contemporary uprisings, I think there is much similarities with the opening of colonization of the Midwest and West in 19th Century America.

Concur to some extent. They're separatist-nationalists. The predominant terrorist motivation of the 1950s through 1980s was of that nature from Los Tupamuras (Uruguay) to the Polisario Front (Western Sahara) to the IRA to the Armadas Liberacion Nacional Puertoriquena (Peurto Rican separatists).

/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[Frenchy68 0]

Quote

Have you noticed any perceptual differences by the folks near you w/r/t this latest series of violence versus those in the early to mid-2000s and versus the most recent Tibetan protests? Or do most folks with whom you interact just not care or is not something that would come up?

They mostly do not care. It is seen as far away events for the majority of the population. When pressed, they will regret that groups are threatening the "social harmony" so dear to the Hu administration. But the official press as well as the government were careful not to accentuate the ethnic aspect of the riots so as not to exacerbate the situation. It was presented as a small group of separatist extremist (and AQ operators) pressing a political agenda, and much attention was paid not to assimilate the Uyghur as an ethnic group with the rioters. The "50 cent army" and its written press counterpart were quick to point the finger at terrorist groups as well as the Western, accused of meddling in Chinese internal affairs (never heard that one before...). Tibetans, who have more similarities with the Han majority (especially when it comes to religion), are seen more as "cousins" who were "liberated" from a feudal system. Whereas Uyghurs are definitely considered as a totally different culture than the Han's. The recent events in Xinjiang (including those leading to the Olympics last year) are much more troublesome for the government than those in Tibets, as they pertain to a purely internal issue between two totally different cultures. Tibet is more of an international PR issue for the Chinese government.

Quote

The origins of the Uyghur unrest/protest/terrorism are separatist/nationalist *not* radical Salafist. But elements of al Qa'eda will appropriate/co-opt/use it to further their radical Salafist ends.

Definitely. It is cultural and nationalistic much more than religious, but AQ and similar groups are trying to "recuperate" the movement. They're hoping to be seen as leaders of a cause which currently does not have a clear cut leadership. The events, on the Uyghur side, were much more defensive than offensive. It seems the whole events started by an (unfunded) rumour from a disgruntled factory worker who had just been laid off. He posted on a blog that Uyghur factory workers in Guangzhou had raped a Han woman. Local Han in Guangzhou went on a rampage, and supposedly a Uyghur worker was killed. This lead to a group of Uyghur in Urumqi demonstrating against discrimination and perceived police bias. Then it degenerated when Hans went on a pogrom. Whether these events did occur as described or not is almost irrelevant. They are symptoms of a very delicate and volatile situation, and how the government will deal with it (and other ethnic minorities scattered around the country) will definitely make for some interesting studying in the years to come...

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

[Skyrad 0]

Quote

Anyone else following the latest Uyghur unrest in Western China?

Yes, its interesting, have you been following whats been going on in Tajikistan with the IMU/IMT?

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[nerdgirl 0]

Quote

... have you been following whats been going on in Tajikistan with the IMU/IMT?

Yes, in the Rasht valley, the border incident, and in Kyrgyzstan. Looks like the German MNF troops might be more engaged than they have wanted to be thus far (mostly domestic politics as driver in the German's case).

Probably a result of low-level fighters returning to homelands. The signal needs to get substantially larger to be appreciatively above the usual ‘noise’ level for the ‘out-of-the-way-a-stans,’ imo.

The underlying motivations of IMU-affiliated insurgents in Central Asia are different than the separatist-nationalist Uyghurs.

/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[winsor 187]

Since Islam and Communism are two of my very least favorite religions, I can see no reason to champion either side.

Hopefully, if they are at each other's throats they will be more likely to leave us alone - though it never seems to work out that way. Sticking our nose into it is probably the worst thing we can do.


Blue skies,

Winsor

[nerdgirl 0]

Quote

Since Islam and Communism are two of my very least favorite religions, I can see no reason to champion either side.

Fair enough.

While perhaps you don’t/won’t, I find such difficult cases to be more interesting sometimes. When one dislikes either side … or less commonly, likes both sides, it can serve as a way to pull away the screen of our own domestic politics and identify -- or more realistically, grapple with -- the underlying strategic drivers and issues.

Quote

Hopefully, if they are at each other's throats they will be more likely to leave us alone - though it never seems to work out that way.

As [Frenchy68] and I noted, the Uyghurs are separatist-nationalists. They’re not really interested in us. They’re most (overwhelmingly) interested in PRC/CCP leaving them alone. They have resources (oil, natural gas, & minerals) that the CCP wants, therefore that is unlikely to happen. (Xinjiang is also where Lop Nor, the Chinese nuclear test site, is located.)

China’s interest in us these days seems more to do with its holdings of our debt.

/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[virgin-burner 1]

Quote

Since Islam and Communism are two of my very least favorite religions, I can see no reason to champion either side.

Hopefully, if they are at each other's throats they will be more likely to leave us alone - though it never seems to work out that way. Sticking our nose into it is probably the worst thing we can do.


Blue skies,

Winsor

but i'm sure you're a strong believer that the US had to free the iraqi folks from dictatorship...

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[winsor 187]

Quote

Quote

Since Islam and Communism are two of my very least favorite religions, I can see no reason to champion either side.

Hopefully, if they are at each other's throats they will be more likely to leave us alone - though it never seems to work out that way. Sticking our nose into it is probably the worst thing we can do.


Blue skies,

Winsor

but i'm sure you're a strong believer that the US had to free the iraqi folks from dictatorship...

Bad guess, Sparky.

Frankly, I figured that Saddam Hussein was a political godsend. The idea that he was the benefactor of his political rivals to our detriment is ludicrous. When his Secret Police came across anyone on our list of bad people, they typically disappeared for being a greater threat to him than to us.

Suspicion of Weapons of Mass Destruction as a Casus Belli? If that had the slightest hint of legitimacy, we would be attacking North Korea, North Dakota, South Africa, South Carolina, Israel, France, Great Britain, Russia, China, India and Pakistan. These are places we KNOW have WMDs.

Also, given our Holy Quest to overthrow the Bad Man,

A) Quite who is supposed to pay for it?
and
B) Who is supposed to replace him in that charming locale that is not an order of magnitude worse?

I learned to quit asking "who could be worse than this turkey?," since we tend to answer that question by electing them.

Just because I think that one politician is an idiot, or that a political party is a bastion of morons does not mean that I am any greater a fan of the politician or party in opposition. As a rule, they are equally contemptible; stupidity knows no political persuasion. Politics largely consists of various people trying do outdo each other - successfully - in the extent to which they are imbiciles.


Blue skies,

Winsor