redlegphi 0 #76 June 23, 2009 Quote Quote Quote I have to wonder why anyone would bitch about this resolution, like it's any skin off anyone's ass. 4 days on, and still no reasonable answer to this question posed. Crime, drugs, milking the welfare system and now they want us to APOLOGIZE for something that happened so long ago? As I've said several times already, slavery didn't end that long ago. The 1940s would be a conservative estimate of when it had mostly come to an end. And, of course, the civil rights movement didn't really start to achieve results until the 1960s. Beyond all that, the effects of slavery and the post-war treatment of African-Americans continue to this day. So yeah, some in the African-American community would probably appreciate an apology from the US for fucking up generations of their families. Also, painting the African-American community as a bunch of criminals, drug addicts, and welfare queens is probably more than a little racist. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #77 June 23, 2009 Quote Quote Quote I have to wonder why anyone would bitch about this resolution, like it's any skin off anyone's ass. 4 days on, and still no reasonable answer to this question posed. Crime, drugs, milking the welfare system and now they want us to APOLOGIZE for something that happened so long ago? Classic. Thank you SO much for illustrating my point far better than I ever could have. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
warpedskydiver 0 #78 June 23, 2009 whites endure indentured servitude well into the 1940's while it may not have been legal, it stall happened. White women are still the primary source of sexual slaves bought and sold in Europe and the Mid East as well as the Far East. While mostly comprised of Eastern Euro women they have now started to kidnap American and Canadian women for specialty customers. This is simply sick and needs to be avenged. However there is great evidence that shows state sponsored involvement in these crimes. While public officials may not do it themselves they probably have no problem accepting the huge sums of money from their cut from prostitution and human trafficking, I personally know of two women who were abducted and only one was retrieved from Mexico, the other was never found. I only know of them because I was acquainted with her retrieval team. They did it for free. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflybella 0 #79 June 23, 2009 Quote Quote Quote Quote I have to wonder why anyone would bitch about this resolution, like it's any skin off anyone's ass. 4 days on, and still no reasonable answer to this question posed. Crime, drugs, milking the welfare system and now they want us to APOLOGIZE for something that happened so long ago? Classic. Thank you SO much for illustrating my point far better than I ever could have. Geez, I guess I should've made the sarcasm more clear. I was trying to illustrate your point for sure. Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflybella 0 #80 June 23, 2009 Just to be clear - lame attempt at sarcasm on my part. (I should learn not to post before coffee number 3.) Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflybella 0 #81 June 23, 2009 The fact that it is illegal makes all the difference in the world in your argument. Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
redlegphi 0 #82 June 23, 2009 QuoteJust to be clear - lame attempt at sarcasm on my part. Ah. I apologize for implying that you were a racist then. We need a damn sarcasm tag. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
warpedskydiver 0 #83 June 23, 2009 QuoteThe fact that it is illegal makes all the difference in the world in your argument. Not to the Victims.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
redlegphi 0 #84 June 23, 2009 QuoteThe fact that it is illegal makes all the difference in the world in your argument. Depends. Peonage was also illegal in the United States after the Civil War, but the government turned a blind eye, making it de facto legal. If a government has made what warpedskydiver describes illegal while still allowing it to occur, then they're doing the same thing and should fix things on the enforcement end and apologize. Kinda like our Congress just did. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #85 June 23, 2009 Quote>And weren't those slaves set free by the Emancipation Proclamation? No. The Confederacy did not heed any proclamations from the Union. The Encyclopedia Brittanica disagrees with you:"Emancipation Proclamation: Edict issued by U.S. Pres. Abraham Lincoln on Jan. 1, 1863, that freed the slaves of the Confederate states in rebellion against the Union. As president, Lincoln could issue no such declaration; as commander in chief of the armies and navies of the United States he could issue directions only as to the territory within his lines; but the Emancipation Proclamation applied only to territory outside of his lines. It has therefore been debated whether the proclamation was in reality of any force. It may fairly be taken as an announcement of the policy that was to guide the army and as a declaration of freedom taking effect as the lines advanced. At all events, this was its exact effect. Its international importance was far greater. The locking up of the world’s source of cotton supply had been a general calamity, and the Confederate government and people had steadily expected that the English and French governments would intervene in the war. The conversion of the struggle into a crusade against slavery made European intervention impossible. To Lincoln and to his countrymen it had become evident that the proclamation had dealt a deathblow to slavery in the United States, a fate that was officially sealed by the ratification of the Thirteenth Amendment in December 1865. "http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/185468/Emancipation-Proclamation It doesn't matter what the Confederacy "heeded" (that's your Clintonesque wiggle word here) - the true effect of the Proclamation was that it led to freeing of slaves. All your little wiggle words to try and spin it some other way, won't change that. Leave it to the liberals to make a Proclamation freeing slaves look like something bad. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,444 #86 June 23, 2009 >the true effect of the Proclamation was that it led to freeing of slaves. The Civil War led to the freeing of the slaves. The Proclamation did not free any slaves. Again, if Canada passed a law that said that "no US citizen in the United States can own a gun" it would not repeal any of your rights. If Canada then invaded the US, deposed the government and set up their own government there, then yes, that law would apply. But it would be the war, and not some proclamation made in Ottawa, that would make that happen. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #87 June 23, 2009 QuoteThe Civil War led to the freeing of the slaves. The Proclamation did not free any slaves. So, in billvon-speak:The Magna Carta did NOT lead to the recognition of certain legal rights for citizens. The Declaration of Independence did NOT lead to the creation of America as a free and independent nation. The Gettysburg Address did NOT lead to human equality. The Yalta Conference did NOT mark the end of World War II. John F. Kennedy's 1962 speech to put a man on the moon, did NOT lead to the moon landing. Martin Luther King's "I have a dream" speech, did NOT lead to equal civil rights for blacks.That sure is some funny logic you've got there. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,444 #88 June 23, 2009 So John, if Canada passed a law that said that US citizens residing in the US could not own guns, you would give up your guns? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
redlegphi 0 #89 June 23, 2009 Quote It doesn't matter what the Confederacy "heeded" (that's your Clintonesque wiggle word here) - the true effect of the Proclamation was that it led to freeing of slaves. All your little wiggle words to try and spin it some other way, won't change that. Leave it to the liberals to make a Proclamation freeing slaves look like something bad. Yes it does. As Billvon has pointed out clearly, Lincoln could declare anything he wanted about the Confederacy's slaves. Until the Union army took the ground, the proclamation was just meaningless words on paper. Also, you both keep leaving out the word "some". The Emancipation Proclamation freed SOME slaves. The Civil War ended slavery for SOME. And I don't know why you're acting like the slaves should thank the US government for returning them to a state of freedom that they were born with and were stolen out of. It'd be like if Billvon stole your guns and I then demanded that you thank him if he gave them back. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #90 June 23, 2009 A bad analogy is like a chicken putting his boots on the wrong feet. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
redlegphi 0 #91 June 23, 2009 QuoteA bad analogy is like a chicken putting his boots on the wrong feet. I'm gonna need more chickens. And boots. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #92 June 23, 2009 QuoteQuoteA bad analogy is like a chicken putting his boots on the wrong feet. I'm gonna need more chickens. And boots. A bird in hand is like a half dozen of the other. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #93 June 23, 2009 QuoteAlso, you both keep leaving out the word "some". The Emancipation Proclamation freed SOME slaves. The Civil War ended slavery for SOME. My terminology was that it freed "a whole bunch". I think that's accurate. I think there were more slaves in the southern states than there were in the union-controlled states. A whole bunch more. I think it's funny that you guys keep arguing that the Emancipation Proclamation was worthless, because it didn't free all of them, immediately. By that reasoning, all famous proclamations on human rights from influential people throughout history, are worthless. And that would be a ridiculous assertion. Such proclamations mean something. They're a statement about what is right, and what we should work for. They're a starting point towards achieving a great change for the better. Just because it might take years, or even decades, to completely accomplish those stated goals, doesn't mean that the speech which initiates that important endeavor, is worthless and should be denounced. The Emancipation Proclamation initiated an important attitude change towards human rights, that led to freedom for millions of people, and it should be recognized as such. (Except for liberals who hate America and always relish finding new ways to criticize it.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 25 #94 June 23, 2009 Haven't you been paying attention, John? Here are the facts. Please try to memorize them: 1) The Emancipation Proclamation was a worthless document that accomplished nothing. 2) Slavery in the United States persisted well past the end of the civil war--probably right up to the present day. 3) You, yourself, probably own dozens of slaves, even if you don't realize it. 4) These are extremely important issues worthy of the immediate and undivided attention of all branches of our government, which should immediately drop all other business and tend to this.-- Tom Aiello [email protected] SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
redlegphi 0 #95 June 23, 2009 >1) The Emancipation Proclamation was a worthless document that accomplished nothing. Worthless? No. Did it free a lot of slaves? Not until the Union Army swept through the south. >2) Slavery in the United States persisted well past the end of the civil war--probably right up to the present day. The first part is true for a shockingly large number of African-Americans up until about 1945. While there probably people serving in illegal bondage in the US in "the present day", I would say the number is probably small enough to not play a part in this discussion. >3) You, yourself, probably own dozens of slaves, even if you don't realize it. As far as I know, nobody has asserted anything close to this. >4) These are extremely important issues worthy of the immediate and undivided attention of all branches of our government, which should immediately drop all other business and tend to this. I don't know how much time this took in the House or Senate, but given the vote totals, I'm going to say not much. And while it may not be extremely important to you, people with some history of slavery in their families may consider it important. Others, like myself, may also consider it important because it's important for our country to admit to the mistakes we've made in the past and apologize for them. That's part of being a responsible nation-state. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DanG 1 #96 June 23, 2009 QuoteHere are the facts. Please try to memorize them: 1) The Emancipation Proclamation was a worthless document that accomplished nothing. 2) Slavery in the United States persisted well past the end of the civil war--probably right up to the present day. 3) You, yourself, probably own dozens of slaves, even if you don't realize it. 4) These are extremely important issues worthy of the immediate and undivided attention of all branches of our government, which should immediately drop all other business and tend to this. I realize you are being over-the-top and sarcastic, but I don't think JohnRich is. 1. No one ever said the EP was a worthless document, and no one certainly said (as JohnRich claimed) that it should be denounced. 2. Slavery did persist past the end of the war, to deny that is to deny history. The institution does not persist, but I think most (realistic) people would admit that the average black American does not start on equal footing with the average white American even to this day. 3. I can't comment on JohnRich's current slave holdings. He is, after all, a Texan. 4. The congress essentially spent all of zero time on this. The resolution was read aloud to a mostly empty chamber, and voted on by lack of dissention. The implication that this resolution was a waste of time implies that there was actual time spent on it. There has been more time wasted bitching about this on dz.com that actually spent on it by the congress. Sheesh people, who cares? - Dan G Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 25 #97 June 23, 2009 QuoteWhile there probably people serving in illegal bondage in the US in "the present day", I would say the number is probably small enough to not play a part in this discussion. Then why have you "several times" (your words) tried to inject such a concept into this discussion? QuoteAs I've said several times already, slavery didn't end that long ago. The 1940s would be a conservative estimate of when it had mostly come to an end. And, of course, the civil rights movement didn't really start to achieve results until the 1960s. Beyond all that, the effects of slavery and the post-war treatment of African-Americans continue to this day.-- Tom Aiello [email protected] SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 25 #98 June 23, 2009 QuoteSheesh people, who cares? Which was exactly the point of my #4, above.-- Tom Aiello [email protected] SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
D22369 0 #99 June 23, 2009 not one white person alive owes any black person an apology as nobody alive today owned a slave. They dont speak for me, I owe nothing to anyone for the actions of whites in the past. RoyThey say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
redlegphi 0 #100 June 23, 2009 At what point did "the present day" and "the 1940s" become the same thing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
