Israel troops admit Gaza abuses

[dreamdancer 0]

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An Israeli military college has printed damning soldiers' accounts of the killing of civilians and vandalism during recent operations in Gaza.

One account tells of a sniper killing a mother and children at close range whom troops had told to leave their home.

Another speaker at the seminar described what he saw as the "cold blooded murder" of a Palestinian woman.

The testimonies were published by the military academy at Oranim College. Graduates of the academy, who had served in Gaza, were speaking to new recruits at a seminar.

"The testimonies conveyed an atmosphere in which one feels entitled to use unrestricted force against Palestinians," academy director Dany Zamir told public radio.

Heavy civilian casualties during the three-week operation which ended in the blockaded coastal strip on 18 January provoked an international outcry.

Correspondents say the testimonies undermine Israel's claims that troops took care to protect non-combatants and accusations that Hamas militants were responsible for putting civilians into harm's way.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7952603.stm

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[dreamdancer 0]

looks like this pot is building up to boiling point...

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A United Nations human rights investigator said on Thursday that Israel's offensive against Hamas in densely populated Gaza appeared to constitute a war crime of the "greatest magnitude."

Richard Falk, UN special rapporteur on human rights in the Palestinian territories, said the Geneva Conventions required warring forces to distinguish between military targets and surrounding civilians.

"If it is not possible to do so, then launching the attacks is inherently unlawful and would seem to constitute a war crime of the greatest magnitude under international law," Falk said.

"On the basis of the preliminary evidence available, there is reason to reach this conclusion," he wrote in an annual report submitted to the United Nations Human Rights Council.

Falk called for an independent experts group to be set up to probe possible war crimes committed by both Israeli forces and Hamas.

Violations included Israel's alleged "targeting of schools, mosques and ambulances" during the December 27-January 18 offensive and its use of weapons including white phosphorus, as well as Hamas firing of rockets at civilian targets in southern Israel.

Falk said that Israel's blockade of the coastal strip of 1.5 million people violated the Geneva Conventions, which he said suggested further war crimes and possibly crimes against humanity.

The aggression was not legally justified and may represent a "crime against peace" - a principle established at the Nuremberg trials of Nazi criminals, according to the American law professor who serves as the Human Rights Council's independent investigator.

He further suggested that the Security Council might set up an ad hoc criminal tribunal to establish accountability for war crimes in Gaza, noting Israel has not signed the Rome statutes establishing the International Criminal Court.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1072481.html

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[Skyrad 0]

They were committed by a few bad apples, the Israeli Defence force does all it can to avoid civillian casualties, the woman and her child were warned so its their fault, the dead civillians were only killed because there was Hamas terrorists hiding behind them so its actually Hamas's fault. The IDF loves children and is kind to fluffy animals. (just thought I'd get this crap out of the way and save the time of the Neo facists)

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Skyrad 0]

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The testimonies include a description by an infantry squad leader of an incident where an IDF sharpshooter mistakenly shot a Palestinian mother and her two children. "There was a house with a family inside .... We put them in a room. Later we left the house and another platoon entered it, and a few days after that there was an order to release the family. They had set up positions upstairs. There was a sniper position on the roof," the soldier said.

"The platoon commander let the family go and told them to go to the right. One mother and her two children didn't understand and went to the left, but they forgot to tell the sharpshooter on the roof they had let them go and it was okay, and he should hold his fire and he ... he did what he was supposed to, like he was following his orders."

According to the squad leader: "The sharpshooter saw a woman and children approaching him, closer than the lines he was told no one should pass. He shot them straight away. In any case, what happened is that in the end he killed them.

"I don't think he felt too bad about it, because after all, as far as he was concerned, he did his job according to the orders he was given. And the atmosphere in general, from what I understood from most of my men who I talked to ... I don't know how to describe it .... The lives of Palestinians, let's say, is something very, very less important than the lives of our soldiers. So as far as they are concerned they can justify it that way," he said.

Another squad leader from the same brigade told of an incident where the company commander ordered that an elderly Palestinian woman be shot and killed; she was walking on a road about 100 meters from a house the company had commandeered.

The squad leader said he argued with his commander over the permissive rules of engagement that allowed the clearing out of houses by shooting without warning the residents beforehand. After the orders were changed, the squad leader's soldiers complained that "we should kill everyone there [in the center of Gaza]. Everyone there is a terrorist."

The squad leader said: "You do not get the impression from the officers that there is any logic to it, but they won't say anything. To write 'death to the Arabs' on the walls, to take family pictures and spit on them, just because you can. I think this is the main thing: To understand how much the IDF has fallen in the realm of ethics, really. It's what I'll remember the most."

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1072231.html


No different than the Nazi's in the Warsaw getto. Shame on Israel this is the ultimate Stockholm syndrome.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Krip 2]

In the big picture what the UN does or the "Neo Facists" et al think, don't mean squat.

This crap has been going on for the last 50 yr's, The people in gaza and the other arabs living in the area know it, the isreali's know it, the UN knows, the Isreals arms suppliers know it .

So after the media's moment in the sun nothing will change for another 50 yr's.

SOS same old shit

[Darius11 12]

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The testimonies include a description by an infantry squad leader of an incident where an IDF sharpshooter mistakenly shot a Palestinian mother and her two children. "There was a house with a family inside .... We put them in a room. Later we left the house and another platoon entered it, and a few days after that there was an order to release the family. They had set up positions upstairs. There was a sniper position on the roof," the soldier said.

"The platoon commander let the family go and told them to go to the right. One mother and her two children didn't understand and went to the left, but they forgot to tell the sharpshooter on the roof they had let them go and it was okay, and he should hold his fire and he ... he did what he was supposed to, like he was following his orders."

According to the squad leader: "The sharpshooter saw a woman and children approaching him, closer than the lines he was told no one should pass. He shot them straight away. In any case, what happened is that in the end he killed them.

"I don't think he felt too bad about it, because after all, as far as he was concerned, he did his job according to the orders he was given. And the atmosphere in general, from what I understood from most of my men who I talked to ... I don't know how to describe it .... The lives of Palestinians, let's say, is something very, very less important than the lives of our soldiers. So as far as they are concerned they can justify it that way," he said.

Another squad leader from the same brigade told of an incident where the company commander ordered that an elderly Palestinian woman be shot and killed; she was walking on a road about 100 meters from a house the company had commandeered.

The squad leader said he argued with his commander over the permissive rules of engagement that allowed the clearing out of houses by shooting without warning the residents beforehand. After the orders were changed, the squad leader's soldiers complained that "we should kill everyone there [in the center of Gaza]. Everyone there is a terrorist."

The squad leader said: "You do not get the impression from the officers that there is any logic to it, but they won't say anything. To write 'death to the Arabs' on the walls, to take family pictures and spit on them, just because you can. I think this is the main thing: To understand how much the IDF has fallen in the realm of ethics, really. It's what I'll remember the most."

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1072231.html


No different than the Nazi's in the Warsaw getto. Shame on Israel this is the ultimate Stockholm syndrome.

No it’s not. That was Germans treating Jews Inhumanely thats really bad, this is Jews treating Palestinians inhumanely a huge difference.

The saddest part is the people who sit there and try to protect all of IDFs sins would all condemn the nazis (good they should) yet they fail to see that in this scenario they are like the SSs' fan club.

How fucked up can a moral compass get.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[kelpdiver 2]

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The saddest part is the people who sit there and try to protect all of IDFs sins would all condemn the nazis (good they should) yet they fail to see that in this scenario they are like the SSs' fan club.

Calling posters Nazis has resulted in account suspensions, here.

[Darius11 12]

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The saddest part is the people who sit there and try to protect all of IDFs sins would all condemn the nazis (good they should) yet they fail to see that in this scenario they are like the SSs' fan club.

Calling posters Nazis has resulted in account suspensions, here.

?????????? What r u talking about?

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[dreamdancer 0]

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Calling posters Nazis has resulted in account suspensions, here.

don't do it then

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[Darius11 12]

Do you know what he is talking about?


Oh wait he is admitting that he tries to hide and cover all of IDF sins?

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[dreamdancer 0]

he's baiting

(meanwhile the israelis commit war crimes against civilians - and he has nothing to say about that)

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[Darius11 12]

Off course yoour right. I guess distorting the facts, denying the facts has not worked now he will attempted at getting me banned. Sad really Sad.


I wonder if some people ever grow? If you can never admit your wrong I guess you can feel you’re always right.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[Darius11 12]

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(meanwhile the israelis commit war crimes against civilians - and he has nothing to say about that)

As I have stated 100 times before. The people who seem to side with Israel are usually uninformed, or have sacrificed their sense of ethics for their sense of camaraderie. Either way some people have a fucked up moral compass.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[billvon 2,446]

>I wonder if some people ever grow?

Your one warning.

[kelpdiver 2]

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As I have stated 100 times before. The people who seem to side with Israel are usually uninformed, or have sacrificed their sense of ethics for their sense of camaraderie. Either way some people have a fucked up moral compass.

and you're surprised that people here give you so little attention on these threads?

[dreamdancer 0]

you're the one responding about the poster and not the thread topic (twice now)

what have you got to say about this:

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Dead babies, mothers weeping on their children's graves, a gun aimed at a child and bombed-out mosques - these are a few examples of the images Israel Defense Forces soldiers design these days to print on shirts they order to mark the end of training, or of field duty. The slogans accompanying the drawings are not exactly anemic either: A T-shirt for infantry snipers bears the inscription "Better use Durex," next to a picture of a dead Palestinian baby, with his weeping mother and a teddy bear beside him. A sharpshooter's T-shirt from the Givati Brigade's Shaked battalion shows a pregnant Palestinian woman with a bull's-eye superimposed on her belly, with the slogan, in English, "1 shot, 2 kills." A "graduation" shirt for those who have completed another snipers course depicts a Palestinian baby, who grows into a combative boy and then an armed adult, with the inscription, "No matter how it begins, we'll put an end to it."

There are also plenty of shirts with blatant sexual messages. For example, the Lavi battalion produced a shirt featuring a drawing of a soldier next to a young woman with bruises, and the slogan, "Bet you got raped!" A few of the images underscore actions whose existence the army officially denies - such as "confirming the kill" (shooting a bullet into an enemy victim's head from close range, to ensure he is dead), or harming religious sites, or female or child non-combatants.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1072466.html

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[Krip 2]

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(meanwhile the israelis commit war crimes against civilians - and he has nothing to say about that)

As I have stated 100 times before. The people who seem to side with Israel are usually uninformed, or have sacrificed their sense of ethics for their sense of camaraderie. Either way some people have a fucked up moral compass.

What I can't understand is why people in the good old USA can't see a conncection the behavior of the IDF and their gov't over the last 50 yeaars and the attack on the WTC.

The people are for the most part informed &, ethical, in spite of the propaganada in the media.

Will the US policy in the middle east take a more balanced approach now that we have a new sheriff in town?

Time will tell, But I don't have any unrealistic expectations

R.I.P.

[kelpdiver 2]

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What I can't understand is why people in the good old USA can't see a conncection the behavior of the IDF and their gov't over the last 50 yeaars and the attack on the WTC.

There is none. Though al-Queda will use the Israeli conflict as part of their propaganda, it's not the reason for their existence.

[idrankwhat 0]

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What I can't understand is why people in the good old USA can't see a conncection the behavior of the IDF and their gov't over the last 50 yeaars and the attack on the WTC.

Some of us do. But we're in the minority.

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The people are for the most part informed &, ethical, in spite of the propaganada in the media.

I wouldn't go so far to say that we're well informed WRT this conflict. Obama's mishumourous miscues get more attention than the war crimes that either we or our allies commit.

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Will the US policy in the middle east take a more balanced approach now that we have a new sheriff in town?

Time will tell, But I don't have any unrealistic expectations

R.I.P.

+1

[kelpdiver 2]

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you're the one responding about the poster and not the thread topic (twice now)

what have you got to say about this:

The whole article is more interesting than the selective (and misleading) snips. But I'll discuss that with people interested in an actual discussion.

[dreamdancer 0]

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you're the one responding about the poster and not the thread topic (twice now)

what have you got to say about this:

The whole article is more interesting than the selective (and misleading) snips. But I'll discuss that with people interested in an actual discussion.

i'm waiting
(which snips were made up?)

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[Amazon 7]

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Off course yoour right. I guess distorting the facts, denying the facts has not worked now he will attempted at getting me banned. Sad really Sad.


I wonder if some people ever grow? If you can never admit your wrong I guess you can feel you’re always right.

I am still waiting for some Israeli death camps for the Palistinians in the Negev..base don YOUR desire to demonize them...where are they Darius?????

OH wait,, that was actually the Arab states and OTHER certain countries in that area who were friendly to Hitler and supported his desire to eradicate Jews... interesting NEWSPEAK you talk out of your mouth

[Skyrad 0]

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What I can't understand is why people in the good old USA can't see a conncection the behavior of the IDF and their gov't over the last 50 yeaars and the attack on the WTC.

There is none. Though al-Queda will use the Israeli conflict as part of their propaganda, it's not the reason for their existence.

You do realise that the newspaper involved here was a Israeli one and the sources IDF Soldiers? No one is supporting Al Queda here but why is it that when the IDF murders civillians and has it in their orders to do so that so many posters here look the other way or make excuses for them? Mass murder is mass murder regardless of if you use a airplane to crash into a skyscraper, home made rockets to kill civillians or the IDF committing state sponsered mass murder. Is it really so hard to admit it?

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Skyrad 0]

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Off course yoour right. I guess distorting the facts, denying the facts has not worked now he will attempted at getting me banned. Sad really Sad.


I wonder if some people ever grow? If you can never admit your wrong I guess you can feel you’re always right.

I am still waiting for some Israeli death camps for the Palistinians in the Negev..base don YOUR desire to demonize them...where are they Darius?????

OH wait,, that was actually the Arab states and OTHER certain countries in that area who were friendly to Hitler and supported his desire to eradicate Jews... interesting NEWSPEAK you talk out of your mouth

So mass murder is ok with you so long as its the Jews doing it?

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Krip 2]

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Quote

Off course yoour right. I guess distorting the facts, denying the facts has not worked now he will attempted at getting me banned. Sad really Sad.


I wonder if some people ever grow? If you can never admit your wrong I guess you can feel you’re always right.

I am still waiting for some Israeli death camps for the Palistinians in the Negev..base don YOUR desire to demonize them...where are they Darius?????

OH wait,, that was actually the Arab states and OTHER certain countries in that area who were friendly to Hitler and supported his desire to eradicate Jews... interesting NEWSPEAK you talk out of your mouth

Don't know nothing about the hitlet shit "back in the day"

But Gaza did remind me of Warsaw ghetto. Where a large population was forced to live in under squald conditions in a small confined space. Travel outside the ghetto was restricted and the supply of water, food, and utilities was controled by a superior military force.

Death camps aren't going to happen. However ghetto's and everything they stand for do breed generations of hate. After enough generations of pain & hate the younger genertions become willing to die in a misguided attempt to regain their honor and get even.

50 more years