wmw999 2,167 #26 March 19, 2009 QuoteSo, we all have the right to decide what are just laws and what are unjust and then choose what laws we want to obey.It's called civil disobedience. One also has to be willing to take the consequences of disobeying the laws.QuoteYep, that'll work just fine!Mahatma Gandhi and Martin Luther King both used it. Seemed to work for them. But you need a clear and well-stated goal, and an ability as well as willingness to suffer the consequences until the laws are changed. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ncjumpjunkie 0 #27 March 19, 2009 Quotedidn't say anything about making new laws. I guess i'll ask you then. How much are you willing to pay for a head of lettuce? a pound of tomatoes? A meal at your favorite restaurant? $2 for the lettuce? $5 for the tomatoes? $50 for the meal? Mind you i am NOT making a judgment here as to the rightness or wrongness of paying illegals lower than min wage. I am asking, do you really think americans are willing to put their money where their mouths are? Are YOU? They do these " Cheap Jobs" that so called no else will do only because they ARE ILLEGAL here. What happens when they do get their citizenship then want your job cause they will do it cheaper,,WHAT THEN?? I have several friends that were in the construction business,,,but now they can't even find work. Here is a good example of them losing there jobs to "CHEAP WORKERS"......SONIC BEEF #1 BASE 708, NC BASE 3 SLI,IADI,AFFI.TIE.FAA Rigger, Single & Multi Commercial Pilot,CFI, CFII, MEI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #28 March 19, 2009 Define American ..."That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 25 #29 March 19, 2009 Quote...there's never going to be a "fix" to the problem. I think you put the quotes around the wrong word there. What is the "problem" exactly? People who want work and are willing to work for less compensation are hired to perform tasks. Those people are compensated in accordance with their agreements. Goods (and services) are produced more cheaply, benefiting anyone who consumes those goods (or services). So, um, what's the problem here? It just kind of seems like basic economics in action.-- Tom Aiello [email protected] SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 25 #30 March 19, 2009 QuoteSo, we all have the right to decide what are just laws and what are unjust and then choose what laws we want to obey. Yep, that'll work just fine! It seems to me that it will work better than simply giving sheeplike obedience to the government, no matter what dictates it issues to us.-- Tom Aiello [email protected] SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
penniless 0 #31 March 19, 2009 QuoteQuotedidn't say anything about making new laws. I guess i'll ask you then. How much are you willing to pay for a head of lettuce? a pound of tomatoes? A meal at your favorite restaurant? $2 for the lettuce? $5 for the tomatoes? $50 for the meal? Mind you i am NOT making a judgment here as to the rightness or wrongness of paying illegals lower than min wage. I am asking, do you really think americans are willing to put their money where their mouths are? Are YOU? They do these " Cheap Jobs" that so called no else will do only because they ARE ILLEGAL here. What happens when they do get their citizenship then want your job cause they will do it cheaper,,WHAT THEN?? Then they will be LEGALS, and entitled to exactly the same protections that you and I are entitled to. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 25 #32 March 19, 2009 Quote Thats right "Americans" have that right NOT ILLEGAL'S. I would argue that all humans have certain inalienable rights, regardless of their location or jurisdiction. I know that the real world doesn't always work that way--I just think it should. Some people justify this belief by claiming it is some sort of divinity that grants those rights, and as such they cannot be abrogated by the law of mortal men. I'm an atheist, so I'm just going to go with "that's they way it ought to be, because I said so." -- Tom Aiello [email protected] SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nerdgirl 0 #33 March 19, 2009 Quote Quote Thats right "Americans" have that right NOT ILLEGAL'S. I would argue that all humans have certain inalienable rights, regardless of their location or jurisdiction. I know that the real world doesn't always work that way--I just think it should. Some people justify this belief by claiming it is some sort of divinity that grants those rights, and as such they cannot be abrogated by the law of mortal men. I'm an atheist, so I'm just going to go with "that's they way it ought to be, because I said so." You can add a few other folks who share your perspective Tom. Legal non-US citizens and illegal non-US citizens do have rights under the US Constitution. The Bill of Rights applies to everyone, even illegal immigrants. The Constitution and its delineating (& reserving) of rights protects persons. From the days & words of the Founding Fathers, James Madison said: “Again, it is said, that aliens not being parties to the Constitution, the rights and privileges which it secures cannot be at all claimed by them. “To this reasoning, also, it might be answered, that although aliens are not parties to the Constitution, it does not follow that the Constitution has vested in Congress an absolute power over them. The parties to the Constitution may have granted, or retained, or modified the power over aliens, without regard to that particular consideration. “But a more direct reply is, that it does not follow, because aliens are not parties to the Constitution, as citizens are parties to it, that whilst they actually conform to it, they have no right to its protection. Aliens are not more parties to the laws, than they are parties to the Constitution; yet, it will not be disputed, that as they owe, on one hand, a temporary obedience, they are entitled in return to their protection and advantage. “If aliens had no rights under the Constitution, they might not only be banished, but even capitally punished, without a jury or the other incidents to a fair trial. But so far has a contrary principle been carried, in every part of the United States, that except on charges of treason, an alien has, besides all the common privileges, the special one of being tried by a jury, of which one-half may be also aliens.” That’s in line with the Enlightenment view that natural rights are inalienable rather than given by the King or ruler. In at least two cases (Wong Wing v. U.S. and Yick Wo v. Hopkins), the Supreme Court has unanimously upheld the rights of illegal aliens to the criminal procedure provisions and Equal Protection Clause. The speech of illegal aliens if it meets certain standards (e.g., “Communist” in 1952, see Harisiades v. Shaugnessy), may subject them to deportation, but non-citizens (illegal or legal) cannot be criminally punished if that speech would have been protected speech by a citizen (Bridges v. Wixon). Deportation is administrative not criminal law. That’s one of many very good things about our Government in my opinion! Other nation-states, non-citizens legal or illegal may not have those same protections or be deemed to have inalienable rights. /Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #34 March 19, 2009 QuoteWhat happens when they do get their citizenship then want your job cause they will do it cheaper,,WHAT THEN?? Deja vu, dude. Read your history. That was the same xenophobic argument used against virtually every other-than-English immigrant group to come to the US since the Revolutionary War. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ncjumpjunkie 0 #35 March 19, 2009 Quote Quote Thats right "Americans" have that right NOT ILLEGAL'S. I would argue that all humans have certain inalienable rights, regardless of their location or jurisdiction. I know that the real world doesn't always work that way--I just think it should. Some people justify this belief by claiming it is some sort of divinity that grants those rights, and as such they cannot be abrogated by the law of mortal men. I'm an atheist, so I'm just going to go with "that's they way it ought to be, because I said so." Thats right they are intitled to certain rights,,,,,because they are HUMAN but most illegals demand ALL THE SAME RIGHTS as citizens of this country. Hell most of them get more support from the government as far as welfare, medical and schooling over the citizens of this country. Then they protest and march in protest about the laws of this country. Don't sneak in in the middle of the night and get here and demand the same right as the citizens here!!!SONIC BEEF #1 BASE 708, NC BASE 3 SLI,IADI,AFFI.TIE.FAA Rigger, Single & Multi Commercial Pilot,CFI, CFII, MEI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BikerBabe 0 #36 March 19, 2009 QuoteQuote...there's never going to be a "fix" to the problem. I think you put the quotes around the wrong word there. What is the "problem" exactly? People who want work and are willing to work for less compensation are hired to perform tasks. Those people are compensated in accordance with their agreements. Goods (and services) are produced more cheaply, benefiting anyone who consumes those goods (or services). So, um, what's the problem here? It just kind of seems like basic economics in action. Oh, I agree with you. I was actually trying to bring the "kick em all out!" people to task to actually THINK about what that would really mean for them. I guess i'm a bleeding heart, but i still think "the poor, tired, huddled masses yearning to be free" should be welcomed, not hated.Never meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ncjumpjunkie 0 #37 March 19, 2009 QuoteQuoteWhat happens when they do get their citizenship then want your job cause they will do it cheaper,,WHAT THEN?? Deja vu, dude. Read your history. That was the same xenophobic argument used against virtually every other-than-English immigrant group to come to the US since the Revolutionary War. Do you have any friends or family that is out of work right now because an ILLEGAL came in and is doing the same job cheaper???? I DO! I also have a 10 year old daughter that was involved in a school function. I went to watch the performance,,,when the principle stood up to thank the families for coming out and supporting their kids, there was a spanish translator that translated every word for the families that couldn't speak or understand English. All I'm saying is just come here LEGALLY!!!!SONIC BEEF #1 BASE 708, NC BASE 3 SLI,IADI,AFFI.TIE.FAA Rigger, Single & Multi Commercial Pilot,CFI, CFII, MEI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #38 March 19, 2009 Quote I have a 10 year old daughter that was involved in a school function. I went to watch the performance,,,when the principle stood up to thank the families for coming out and supporting their kids, there was a spanish translator that translated every word for the families that couldn't speak or understand English. That has nothing to do with whether their immigration was or was not legal. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ncjumpjunkie 0 #39 March 19, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuote...there's never going to be a "fix" to the problem. I think you put the quotes around the wrong word there. What is the "problem" exactly? People who want work and are willing to work for less compensation are hired to perform tasks. Those people are compensated in accordance with their agreements. Goods (and services) are produced more cheaply, benefiting anyone who consumes those goods (or services). So, um, what's the problem here? It just kind of seems like basic economics in action. Oh, I agree with you. I was actually trying to bring the "kick em all out!" people to task to actually THINK about what that would really mean for them. I guess i'm a bleeding heart, but i still think "the poor, tired, huddled masses yearning to be free" should be welcomed, not hated. I welcome them here too,,,,,,,,the right way!!!!SONIC BEEF #1 BASE 708, NC BASE 3 SLI,IADI,AFFI.TIE.FAA Rigger, Single & Multi Commercial Pilot,CFI, CFII, MEI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BikerBabe 0 #40 March 19, 2009 ok. ask your friends or family how little they would be willing to work for, and what jobs they'd be willing to do. Pick avocados? wash dishes in a restaurant? Now ask yourself how much you'll pay for avocados (or your fruit or vegetable of choice. I know there are some poor misguided people on this earth who hate avocados ). Blaming it all on the illegals is an easy way out. But what about the people in America who have become so puffed up and egotistical that see all of those jobs as "beneath" them? I give you this thread in Bonfire: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3516085;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread as a perfect example. So blame the dirty mexicans because it's easy and they look or sound different than us. Yep. It's ALL their fault! Never meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ncjumpjunkie 0 #41 March 19, 2009 QuoteQuote I have a 10 year old daughter that was involved in a school function. I went to watch the performance,,,when the principle stood up to thank the families for coming out and supporting their kids, there was a spanish translator that translated every word for the families that couldn't speak or understand English. That has nothing to do with whether their immigration was or was not legal. True,,,,but 90% that come from spanish countries are!!!SONIC BEEF #1 BASE 708, NC BASE 3 SLI,IADI,AFFI.TIE.FAA Rigger, Single & Multi Commercial Pilot,CFI, CFII, MEI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 25 #42 March 19, 2009 QuoteHell most of them get more support from the government as far as welfare, medical and schooling over the citizens of this country. In my mind, the solution there is to stop giving stuff out to people (any people). I don't blame anyone for responding rationally to the incentives they face. I'd just prefer that the incentives be opportunities to succeed through hard work, rather than the chance to suck at the government teat. I haven't seen the numbers recently, but the last time I looked most illegal immigrants actually contributed more to the government budget (in payroll taxes) then they took out, perhaps partially because they were afraid of being deported if they tried to claim the benefits.-- Tom Aiello [email protected] SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ncjumpjunkie 0 #43 March 19, 2009 Quote ok. ask your friends or family how little they would be willing to work for, and what jobs they'd be willing to do. Pick avocados? wash dishes in a restaurant? Now ask yourself how much you'll pay for avocados (or your fruit or vegetable of choice. I know there are some poor misguided people on this earth who hate avocados ). Blaming it all on the illegals is an easy way out. But what about the people in America who have become so puffed up and egotistical that see all of those jobs as "beneath" them? I give you this thread in Bonfire: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3516085;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread as a perfect example. So blame the dirty mexicans because it's easy and they look or sound different than us. Yep. It's ALL their fault! I'm not blaming "Mexicans" but what happens when they aren't Illegals anymore and they don't have to work for cheap pay because now they are intitled to the same as YOU. Who will do the job then? Do you sugest that we keep letting illegal's come in and work. Why not let them come in on a worker permit,,,Then make them pay taxes and help support ALL of the other programs we TAX payers help support.SONIC BEEF #1 BASE 708, NC BASE 3 SLI,IADI,AFFI.TIE.FAA Rigger, Single & Multi Commercial Pilot,CFI, CFII, MEI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ncjumpjunkie 0 #44 March 19, 2009 QuoteQuoteHell most of them get more support from the government as far as welfare, medical and schooling over the citizens of this country. In my mind, the solution there is to stop giving stuff out to people (any people). I don't blame anyone for responding rationally to the incentives they face. I'd just prefer that the incentives be opportunities to succeed through hard work, rather than the chance to suck at the government teat. I haven't seen the numbers recently, but the last time I looked most illegal immigrants actually contributed more to the government budget (in payroll taxes) then they took out, perhaps partially because they were afraid of being deported if they tried to claim the benefits. True,,thats because most use fake or stolen social security numbers for working, so they can't claim a return. But they still take from the country way more than they contribute.SONIC BEEF #1 BASE 708, NC BASE 3 SLI,IADI,AFFI.TIE.FAA Rigger, Single & Multi Commercial Pilot,CFI, CFII, MEI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #45 March 19, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuote I have a 10 year old daughter that was involved in a school function. I went to watch the performance,,,when the principle stood up to thank the families for coming out and supporting their kids, there was a spanish translator that translated every word for the families that couldn't speak or understand English. That has nothing to do with whether their immigration was or was not legal. True,,,,but 90% that come from spanish countries are!!! No, that refers to the proportion of illegal immgrants who are from Spanish-speaking countries. (Which is logical, since we've just about got that nasty Canadian immigration problem licked, and our Eastern and Western borders are protected by really big moats.) But that's far different from saying that "90% of all those who immigrated to the US from Spanish-speaking countries did so illegally," which is not true. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
penniless 0 #46 March 19, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuote I have a 10 year old daughter that was involved in a school function. I went to watch the performance,,,when the principle stood up to thank the families for coming out and supporting their kids, there was a spanish translator that translated every word for the families that couldn't speak or understand English. That has nothing to do with whether their immigration was or was not legal. True,,,,but 90% that come from spanish countries are!!! No, that refers to the proportion of illegal immgrants who are from Spanish-speaking countries. (Which is logical, since we've just about got that nasty Canadian immigration problem licked, and our Eastern and Western borders are protected by really big moats.) But that's far different from saying that "90% of all those who immigrated to the US from Spanish-speaking countries did so illegally," which is not true. I thought it was well established on Speakers Corner that facts are not allowed to interfere with a good rant. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #47 March 19, 2009 Quote ok. ask your friends or family how little they would be willing to work for, and what jobs they'd be willing to do. Pick avocados? wash dishes in a restaurant? Now ask yourself how much you'll pay for avocados (or your fruit or vegetable of choice. I know there are some poor misguided people on this earth who hate avocados ). Blaming it all on the illegals is an easy way out. But what about the people in America who have become so puffed up and egotistical that see all of those jobs as "beneath" them? I give you this thread in Bonfire: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3516085;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread as a perfect example. So blame the dirty mexicans because it's easy and they look or sound different than us. Yep. It's ALL their fault! I don't blame the illegals because, we make it easy for them, then protect them once they are here. The buyer who sells the produce to markets sets the price then the grocery stores mark that price up as to what the market will bear. As for illegals, I strongly support a worker program! What so many people in this country don't seem to understand is, by letting just anyone into this country without knowing who they are is insane! What we are getting more and more of across our border is criminals and not just the poor guy looking to pick avocados. Have you any idea as to who, exactly sneaks across our border? Do you have any idea how many cross illegaly and join gangs in this country? I ask again... have we forgotten 9/11? There has to be a sane and sensible way of controling our border and who enters this country. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ncjumpjunkie 0 #48 March 19, 2009 AMEN BROTHER!!!!!!!SONIC BEEF #1 BASE 708, NC BASE 3 SLI,IADI,AFFI.TIE.FAA Rigger, Single & Multi Commercial Pilot,CFI, CFII, MEI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,466 #49 March 19, 2009 >we all have the right to decide what are just laws and what are unjust and then >choose what laws we want to obey. Yes, and that's something we all do. Why, I bet you yourself have, on occasion, violated the speed limit and thought that was just fine. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #50 March 19, 2009 BACK ATCHA'! Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
