Muenkel 0 #126 March 8, 2009 Quote But, you can read into it what ever you want. Trust me Karen, he will do exactly that. _________________________________________ Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #127 March 8, 2009 QuoteHow could I possibly convince you when you regard a scientific study with a clear result is as irrelevant? Because it is a clear result only if you are advocating a nationalized healthcare system. Arbitrary criteria such as "fairness of healthcare cost" (or something like that) has absolutely SHIT to do with the EFFECTIVENESS of healthcare - something you can't seem to (or are unwilling to) understand. QuoteAnd no, actually I'm not saying that European healthcare is immensely better than American. My main argument is that public healthcare can be more efficient than privately funded. /Martin I don't see how anyone can tout a system with longer waits for care, rationing of services and lower survival rates as 'more efficient'. Convince me.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #128 March 8, 2009 QuoteConvince me. don't have to. a national health service is coming to the usa - get ready!stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kbordson 8 #129 March 9, 2009 QuoteQuoteConvince me. don't have to. a national health service is coming to the usa - get ready! So says dreamdancer, son of Nostradamus. Well. that settles that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MartinOlsson 0 #130 March 9, 2009 Quotewhere's a link? Mostly in swedish: http://www.socialstyrelsen.se/NR/rdonlyres/A0B57695-D18F-4F6B-9D1D-84CDEB4392F7/1968/9942009.pdf But it's the definition used by WHO and that one should be easier to find. On a side note: Even CIA seem to agree with WHO https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/us.html Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #131 March 9, 2009 A precewpt of law is that there is no "national standard of care." Another thing that the good doctor is alluding to is that the practice of medicine includes "judgment.". Ever hear about going for a "second opinion?". Medical judgment will be largely eliminated. Much of what has been proposed has indicated "national best practices.". Note the term "best.". Ask the question: "best for whom.". The "best" doctors are the ones who most often do as instructed. If the you think the govt means "best for you" then think again. Want a second opinion? It will not be the "best.". We know because it isn't in the "best practices." My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #132 March 9, 2009 QuoteI do NOT want the government involved in medical decision making. I would rather it be the government than for-profit insurance companies or HMO's.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kbordson 8 #133 March 9, 2009 QuoteQuoteI do NOT want the government involved in medical decision making. I would rather it be the government than for-profit insurance companies or HMO's. Why? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #134 March 9, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteI do NOT want the government involved in medical decision making. I would rather it be the government than for-profit insurance companies or HMO's. Why? Because being for-profit causes a conflict of interests. For-profit entities operate with the owners' best interests in mind, not the customers'. A for-profit insurance company's reason for existence is to maximize income for shareholders, not to ensure patients get the best care possible. While the government may not be perfect, that conflict of interest does not exist.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kbordson 8 #135 March 9, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteI do NOT want the government involved in medical decision making. I would rather it be the government than for-profit insurance companies or HMO's. Why? Because being for-profit causes a conflict of interests. For-profit entities operate with the owners' best interests in mind, not the customers'. A for-profit insurance company's reason for existence is to maximize income for shareholders, not to ensure patients get the best care possible. While the government may not be perfect, that conflict of interest does not exist. I disagree Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #136 March 9, 2009 QuoteWhile the government may not be perfect, that conflict of interest does not exist. Which, of course, is why the British NHS denied life-saving treatment to cancer victims, right? http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&sid=amVFPFBe40Ak&refer=exclusiveMike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #137 March 9, 2009 QuoteQuoteWrong again - I never said the purpose was to make the US look bad. The WHO report starts with a set of assumptions that have the EFFECT of comparatively downranking the US healthcare system because of arbitrary criteria. And I never sited that report. And your point would be, what? Disprove what I said, if you think it is false. How could I possibly convince you when you regard a scientific study with a clear result is as irrelevant? And no, actually I'm not saying that European healthcare is immensely better than American. My main argument is that public healthcare can be more efficient than privately funded. /Martin Guess what? I read the report. The report makes is "clear" that it rates which countries are the best at providing socisalized medicine. As a corollary, I could cite a study that fouind out which production automobile was the best at providing a mix of raw horsepower and torque. I could then cite the aerticle as a scientific study with a clear result and posit "this is the best production automobile." See, I'm a denier. I'd say, "best? No. You THINK it is the best at providing raw torque and horsepower. I disagree because I place more value on torque. "And second. Your vehicle is almost USELESS to me. My 'best' vehicle gets good mileage and safety. Your study ONLY rates horsepower and torque. It is a stretch to extend that to saying it is the 'best.'" The WHO study was clear - they thought France was best at delivering socialized medicine. That is all. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #138 March 9, 2009 QuoteI disagree To which shareholders is the government beholden to?Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MartinOlsson 0 #139 March 9, 2009 QuoteQuoteBecause being for-profit causes a conflict of interests. For-profit entities operate with the owners' best interests in mind, not the customers'. A for-profit insurance company's reason for existence is to maximize income for shareholders, not to ensure patients get the best care possible. While the government may not be perfect, that conflict of interest does not exist. I disagree I'm not that well educated in american corporate law but I'm pretty sure it's a criminal offense for a company board not to work in the best interest of the shareholders. Maybe Lawrocket can help us out here. Much in the same way the government should be working for the best interest of the people. Intentionally not doing that is in most cases also a criminal offense (i.e. corruption). You might disagree on the outcome of a shift in policies. But if you are implying that the corporate sphere is more interested in what's best for the people is just wrong. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #140 March 9, 2009 No conflict between govt care and citizens? I suppose, "you'll get what we give you and nothing else" DOES eliminate conflict. But a conflict of interest is eliminated? Whenever individual choice and government mandate conflict there will be a conflict of interest. "Hey! I don't want steroids. I work in the sun. Just gimme a laminectomy." "No." My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #141 March 9, 2009 QuoteAmericans were ranked #1 in "Level Responsiveness" - which is satisfaction. Would you be so kind, sir, since you claim to have read the study, to post a quote of the relevant text of the study that defines level responsiveness as customer/patient satisfaction?Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kbordson 8 #142 March 9, 2009 QuoteQuoteI disagree I'm not that well educated in american corporate law but I'm pretty sure it's a criminal offense for a company board not to work in the best interest of the shareholders. Maybe Lawrocket can help us out here. Much in the same way the government should be working for the best interest of the people. Intentionally not doing that is in most cases also a criminal offense (i.e. corruption). You might disagree on the outcome of a shift in policies. But if you are implying that the corporate sphere is more interested in what's best for the people is just wrong. Both comments bolded are where my concern lie. The government "should be" working for the best interest of the people... but the reality is that it doesn't. Lobbies and special interest groups have shown that they can completely distract the government from what "should be." And "best interest of the people" might not be "best interest of my patient." See my posts above of the problems that I have already encountered with government resistance to providing appropriate patient care. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
1969912 0 #143 March 9, 2009 QuoteQuoteAmericans were ranked #1 in "Level Responsiveness" - which is satisfaction. Would you be so kind, sir, since you claim to have read the study, to post a quote of the relevant text of the study that defines level responsiveness as customer/patient satisfaction? Have at it. Page 11 of Chapter 4 is a start. Hate to see you have to read the thing though.... http://www.who.int/whr/2000/en/index.html "Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ." -NickDG Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MartinOlsson 0 #144 March 9, 2009 Quote Guess what? I read the report. The report makes is "clear" that it rates which countries are the best at providing socisalized medicine. As a corollary, I could cite a study that fouind out which production automobile was the best at providing a mix of raw horsepower and torque. I could then cite the aerticle as a scientific study with a clear result and posit "this is the best production automobile." See, I'm a denier. I'd say, "best? No. You THINK it is the best at providing raw torque and horsepower. I disagree because I place more value on torque. "And second. Your vehicle is almost USELESS to me. My 'best' vehicle gets good mileage and safety. Your study ONLY rates horsepower and torque. It is a stretch to extend that to saying it is the 'best.'" The WHO study was clear - they thought France was best at delivering socialized medicine. That is all. I never cited that report, we were discussing infant mortality rates. And as it turns out, even the CIA (https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/) believes that the US have a much higher rate than other industrialized countries. I haven't read the report you are referring to so I'm not going to debate that one. /Martin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #145 March 9, 2009 QuoteQuoteAmericans were ranked #1 in "Level Responsiveness" - which is satisfaction. Would you be so kind, sir, since you claim to have read the study, to post a quote of the relevant text of the study that defines level responsiveness as customer/patient satisfaction? QuoteResponsiveness: Responsiveness includes two major components. These are (a) respect for persons (including dignity, confidentiality and autonomy of individuals and families to decide about their own health); and (b) client orientation (including prompt attention, access to social support networks during care, quality of basic amenities and choice of provider).Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MartinOlsson 0 #146 March 9, 2009 QuoteThe government "should be" working for the best interest of the people... but the reality is that it doesn't. Lobbies and special interest groups have shown that they can completely distract the government from what "should be." And "best interest of the people" might not be "best interest of my patient." See my posts above of the problems that I have already encountered with government resistance to providing appropriate patient care. Who do you believe those special interest groups are? I'm guessing corporations looking out for their shareholders. /Martin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #147 March 9, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteAmericans were ranked #1 in "Level Responsiveness" - which is satisfaction. Would you be so kind, sir, since you claim to have read the study, to post a quote of the relevant text of the study that defines level responsiveness as customer/patient satisfaction? QuoteResponsiveness: Responsiveness includes two major components. These are (a) respect for persons (including dignity, confidentiality and autonomy of individuals and families to decide about their own health); and (b) client orientation (including prompt attention, access to social support networks during care, quality of basic amenities and choice of provider). That's essentially what I thought it meant, not satisfaction of service. The study's findings w/r/t responsiveness are also consistent with anecdotal feedback I've heard from European skydivers who have received medical treatment in the US. It's the only area in which they felt America was superior to their home country's services.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
1969912 0 #148 March 9, 2009 QuoteThat's essentially what I thought it meant,... So you clearly have not read WHO report. Mnealtx apparently has. Something you might keep in mind.... "Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ." -NickDG Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kbordson 8 #149 March 9, 2009 QuoteQuoteThe government "should be" working for the best interest of the people... but the reality is that it doesn't. Lobbies and special interest groups have shown that they can completely distract the government from what "should be." And "best interest of the people" might not be "best interest of my patient." See my posts above of the problems that I have already encountered with government resistance to providing appropriate patient care. Who do you believe those special interest groups are? I'm guessing corporations looking out for their shareholders. /Martin So you would rather let a lobbyiest decide what medical care you should get? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #150 March 9, 2009 QuoteQuoteThat's essentially what I thought it meant,... So you clearly have not read WHO report. Mnealtx apparently has. Something you might keep in mind.... I have not read the report recently. It's been a few years. I knew that the term did not mean what lawrocket had claimed, which is why I specifically asked for him to clarify.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
