Israel, Nazis the same

[kelpdiver 2]

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when hamas kills 100 israelis for 1 palestinian dead, when hamas blockades an entire population, when hamas fires white phosphorous at civilians....
that would be a sensible question

The crux of this argument suggests that vast superiority is a crime in and of itself.

In the first gulf war (and likely the second), the US had a massive kill ratio well over 100:1, but that didn't make it a war crime.

[434 2]

Gulf war 1 was abut defending a corrupt tyranny who used modern slavery to building a state, and also was one of the worst racist state in the world at the time!

The west was fed with rapes kills and even worse baby killing stories! Why was Kuwait so important to protect?

[tbrown 26]

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A Norwegian diplomat based in Saudi Arabia has sent out e-mails from her Foreign Ministry e-mail account equating Israel's offensive against Hamas in Gaza with the systematic mass murder of six million Jews by the Nazis.

I find this especially offensive as this diplomat apparently has no recollection of his own country's occupation by the Nazis and the puppet Quisling government they installed.

I know of no plans by the Israeli govt to round up and exterminate Palestinians en masse. End of story. That they fight back against an enemy who insists on firing rockets into their towns and cities, while using schools and other civilian locations for human shielding, is unfortunate, but necessary. Every nation has the right to defend itself and its people. I hope this diplomat is sacked, though I doubt it will ever happen.

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

[kelpdiver 2]

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Gulf war 1 was abut defending a corrupt tyranny who used modern slavery to building a state, and also was one of the worst racist state in the world at the time!

The west was fed with rapes kills and even worse baby killing stories! Why was Kuwait so important to protect?

1990-91 was about a lot of things. But on the question of 'crimes,' Iraq was certainly more guilty than the US, the coalition, or Kuwait. Hussein's last act - setting all the wells on fire, was an environmental crime.

But really it was simply an aggressive act that was repelled with incredible effectiveness. The more powerful side (the US lead coalition) doesn't have a moral or legal requirement to fight at the level of its enemy.

Likewise, that Hamas has smaller, less guidable missiles than the IDF doesn't mean they're more right to use them, or that Israel can't retalitate just because they'll much more likely to hit the target and kill people.

[falxori 0]

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War crimes in retaliation for war crimes are still war crimes

who said anything about war crimes as a retaliation for war crimes?

first of all, the use of phosphorous is legal when used properly. I have even heard a european doctor who was in Gaza at the time (I think he was swiss) who said he saw no evidence of any phosphorous burns on anyone.

Israel does not target civilians to retaliate for Hamas targeting civilians. Israel does not target civilians period.
Israel shooting back when fired upon from civilian areas is not a war crime. you can check the rules of war if you don't believe me. it's very clear.

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[idrankwhat 0]

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the Palestinians in what you call "the occupied territories" are not Israeli citizens. the fact that they can't go in Israel freely is no different than me not being able to work in the EU or freely enter Russia without a visa.

I wasn't even approaching the restrictions regarding entering Israel. I'm talking about West Bank Palestinians whose movement throughout the West Bank is reliant on the mood of the IDF officer at a checkpoint, fences, walls, Israeli laws etc.


http://www.btselem.org/english/Video/200508_Soldier_throws_shepherds_off_their_land.asp

http://www.btselem.org/English/Video/20060130_Separation_Barrier_Testimony_of_Abd_a_Latif_Odeh.asp

http://www.btselem.org/English/Video/20070311_Shuhada_closed.asp

[billvon 2,400]

>the crux of this argument suggests that vast superiority is a crime in and of itself.

That attitude is as foolish as the attitude (often expressed here) that military inferiority is a crime in and of itself, and that Palestinians should just "roll over and hope the Israelis scratch their bellies." Both attitudes will lead to an endless cycle of war.

[falxori 0]

I won't argue that it sux for them,
but you must acknowledge that these checkpoints and security fence are there for a reason.

as long as it stops things from blowing up in Israel, which they do, they are justified.

btw, there are much less checkpoints inside the west bank these days and a couple of cities have been handed over to palestinian control.
the west bank is much more tricky than Gaza (size, layout, etc.) and the status of it can only be solved in negotiations.
I think you know my point of view on it and I believe I know yours. both sides will have to give up things they hold dear.

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[434 2]

You have to ask yourselves: Why are they blowing up things inside Israel? Even themselves?

[sparkie 0]

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the Palestinians in what you call "the occupied territories" are not Israeli citizens. the fact that they can't go in Israel freely is no different than me not being able to work in the EU or freely enter Russia without a visa.

I wasn't even approaching the restrictions regarding entering Israel. I'm talking about West Bank Palestinians whose movement throughout the West Bank is reliant on the mood of the IDF officer at a checkpoint, fences, walls, Israeli laws etc.


http://www.btselem.org/english/Video/200508_Soldier_throws_shepherds_off_their_land.asp

http://www.btselem.org/English/Video/20060130_Separation_Barrier_Testimony_of_Abd_a_Latif_Odeh.asp

http://www.btselem.org/English/Video/20070311_Shuhada_closed.asp

yeah i guess one gets really cranky sometimes guessing which one is going to blow themselves up at a busstop.

[Amazon 7]

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I wasn't even approaching the restrictions regarding entering Israel. I'm talking about West Bank Palestinians whose movement throughout the West Bank is reliant on the mood of the IDF officer at a checkpoint, fences, walls, Israeli laws etc.

UNTIL the Palistinians come to the table and make peace.. they are occupied territory... subject to the edict of the military that is occupying them. ( gee does that sound familiar to anyone??)

If they make peace the IDF willl withdraw and leave the land to the people just as they did with Sinai. the Settlers will be .withdrawn.

There will be a Palistinian state and they can make all the laws they wish to govern their people. Their border will not be open because there will still be some idiots who wish to enter Israel and kill Jews. They can trade with whomever they like at that time as a free nation. They will be able to develop whatever industry they wish to persue as any other country does. If they decide to live in peace they can have a future where they can raise their children to prosper rather than deifying death and destruction.

[falxori 0]

let me take myself as an example...

I still fully support Israel's decision to pull out of Gaza. I would have preferred doing it as part of negotiations but since there was no one to talk to, I think Israel did the right move.

the main reason most Israeli supported this move was the hope that once we're out of there, there will be no reason for the Palestinians (and this was before Hamas took over) to keep shooting.

I still believe in the two state solution, but its getting harder to convince people when whenever Israel pulls back (and giving away land we all see and part of our homeland), the result is more violence and a terror organization (and a proxy of Iran) that becomes the government.

so no, I don't expect the Palestinians to roll over, but you have no idea how much support the plan to pull out of the west bank would have got in Israel if the PA took Gaza to prove they can govern themselves in peace.

I'm still hoping its possible but more and more in Israel treated Gaza as a test case, and the result isn't promising...

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[billvon 2,400]

>A Norwegian diplomat based in Saudi Arabia has sent out e-mails from
> her Foreign Ministry e-mail account equating Israel's offensive against
>Hamas in Gaza with the systematic mass murder of six million Jews by
>the Nazis.

I think a quote from Orwell applies very well here:

=========
Many political words are similarly abused. The word fascism has now no meaning except in so far as it signifies "something not desirable."
=========

[Darius11 12]

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so no, I don't expect the Palestinians to roll over, but you have no idea how much support the plan to pull out of the west bank would have got in Israel if the PA took Gaza to prove they can govern themselves in peace.

How can they govern themselves when the government they wanted gets exiled, not recognized, and blockaded?

does that make any sense?

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[falxori 0]

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How can they govern themselves when the government they wanted gets exiled, not recognized, and blockaded?

first of all, Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005. Hamas took over Gaza (violently) in 2007.
that is 2 years in which they could have built instead of destroying.

second, your point just strengthens mine, if they ELECTED a government that its main theme is armed conflict, it proves even more that they did not chose the peaceful way when they had a chance and prove they can handle themselves.

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[billvon 2,400]

>that is 2 years in which they could have built instead of destroying.

Why on earth would they choose to build when Israel regularly pounds their homes, hospitals, powerplants and water treatment plants to rubble? That would be dumber than building a home on a floodplain.

[kelpdiver 2]

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>that is 2 years in which they could have built instead of destroying.

Why on earth would they choose to build when Israel regularly pounds their homes, hospitals, powerplants and water treatment plants to rubble? That would be dumber than building a home on a floodplain.

But not nearly as dumb as building infrastructure and then launching rockets against someone with a vastly superior military force.

[idrankwhat 0]

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UNTIL the Palistinians come to the table and make peace.. they are occupied territory... subject to the edict of the military that is occupying them. ( gee does that sound familiar to anyone??)

If they make peace the IDF willl withdraw and leave the land to the people just as they did with Sinai. the Settlers will be .withdrawn.

There will be a Palistinian state and they can make all the laws they wish to govern their people. Their border will not be open because there will still be some idiots who wish to enter Israel and kill Jews. They can trade with whomever they like at that time as a free nation. They will be able to develop whatever industry they wish to persue as any other country does. If they decide to live in peace they can have a future where they can raise their children to prosper rather than deifying death and destruction.

I want to commend you on your vision. Seriously. Your proposal is the fairest offer I've seen written to date. Beats the crap out of the one offered 8 years ago.
But as for the first step, you can't come to the table if the table's not there. It has to be set. We need leaders with silverware.

[Amazon 7]

Its also very helpful to get the table put in place by telling the otherside that you accept that they have a right to exist and not be exterminated en masse.

[billvon 2,400]

>But not nearly as dumb as building infrastructure and then launching
>rockets against someone with a vastly superior military force.

I agree, both are dumb. And you have just answered the question "why does Hamas not spend their time improving their territory?" Because they're not that dumb.

[likearock 1]

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>But not nearly as dumb as building infrastructure and then launching
>rockets against someone with a vastly superior military force.

I agree, both are dumb. And you have just answered the question "why does Hamas not spend their time improving their territory?" Because they're not that dumb.

Faxlori was talking about what the Gazans could have done between 2005 and 2007 - before Hamas came to power.

[kelpdiver 2]

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>But not nearly as dumb as building infrastructure and then launching
>rockets against someone with a vastly superior military force.

I agree, both are dumb. And you have just answered the question "why does Hamas not spend their time improving their territory?" Because they're not that dumb.

Uh, they're doing almost what I wrote - they're launching the rockets next to vital infrastructure and watching it be destroyed. The only part they skipped was actually trying to improve society.

[idrankwhat 0]

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Hamas took over Gaza (violently) in 2007.
that is 2 years in which they could have built instead of destroying.

How?
Hamas was elected in Jan of 2006. Economic sanctions against the Palestinian National Authority began immediately which consisted of withholding of tax revenues, cessation of import/export of goods and services from the Quartet countries and US banking restrictions. After they kicked Fatah out of Gaza the sanctions were replaced with the blockade.

Complaining that the people in Gaza can't better their lives while crippled by sanctions and a blockade is disingenuous.

[Andy9o8 0]

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>A Norwegian diplomat based in Saudi Arabia has sent out e-mails from
> her Foreign Ministry e-mail account equating Israel's offensive against
>Hamas in Gaza with the systematic mass murder of six million Jews by
>the Nazis.

I think a quote from Orwell applies very well here:

=========
Many political words are similarly abused. The word fascism has now no meaning except in so far as it signifies "something not desirable."
=========

Case in point: The Soup Nazi. On Seinfeld, no less.

[Andy9o8 0]

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UNTIL the Palistinians come to the table and make peace.. they are occupied territory... subject to the edict of the military that is occupying them. ( gee does that sound familiar to anyone??)

If they make peace the IDF willl withdraw and leave the land to the people just as they did with Sinai. the Settlers will be .withdrawn.

There will be a Palistinian state and they can make all the laws they wish to govern their people. Their border will not be open because there will still be some idiots who wish to enter Israel and kill Jews. They can trade with whomever they like at that time as a free nation. They will be able to develop whatever industry they wish to persue as any other country does. If they decide to live in peace they can have a future where they can raise their children to prosper rather than deifying death and destruction.

I want to commend you on your vision. Seriously. Your proposal is the fairest offer I've seen written to date. Beats the crap out of the one offered 8 years ago.
But as for the first step, you can't come to the table if the table's not there. It has to be set. We need leaders with silverware.

It has often been said that the MidEast belligerents never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity. Now, the above-referenced vision is, more or less, the essential crux of the first Oslo Agreement, which was finalized in 1993. (Its imperfections? - another discussion). And the vision Oslo 1 formalized had existed long before that. The lesson, of course, is that a damn good vision, without more, plus 50 cents, won't even get you a bad cuppa Joe these days. Or in days past. Pity, eh?