TheAnvil 0 #51 December 12, 2008 MORE wealth envy, eh John? You like that, huh? Do a simple greater than ,less than thing and perhaps that will help you see something about your precious unions. By your own admission, CEO's make too much money - though why you know better than the board of directors is between you and them. Take the salaries of all three Detroit automakers' CEO's per annum. Sum them. Then see if that's greater than the $$ poured into UAW job banks. Then, get back to us. It is managements job to manage its workforce. And when its contracts with unions preclude it from doing that, the company goes under. Under because of what? Its union! So easy...and yet you still don't get it. Vinny the Anvil Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL JACKASS POWER!!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,683 #52 December 12, 2008 Quote MORE wealth envy, eh John? You like that, huh? Having to make stuff up now, since you have no real case Quote Do a simple greater than ,less than thing and perhaps that will help you see something about your precious unions. By your own admission, CEO's make too much money - though why you know better than the board of directors is between you and them. Take the salaries of all three Detroit automakers' CEO's per annum. Sum them. Then see if that's greater than the $$ poured into UAW job banks. Then, get back to us. It is managements job to manage its workforce. And when its contracts with unions preclude it from doing that, the company goes under. Under because of what? Its union! So easy...and yet you still don't get it. Who signed said contract for the corporation, Vinny? Inconvenient little detail for your case, but important.Since YOU don't get it, I'll tell you. MANAGEMENT agreed to the contract with the unions.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #53 December 12, 2008 Well, I guess you guys heard the "good" news....This bill is dead. Thanks anyways....it'll be ok... *walks off with broken heart, writing something with pen and paper, shaking head* -End of Act I Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tumbler 0 #54 December 12, 2008 Sorry... just got this email from CNN Breaking News. -- Auto bailout dies in Senate after compromise talks fail. If that hurts you personally that does bum me out. For the country I think it is a good thing. I also doubt it is totally dead. There will be some kind of exchange that gets federal loot so the CEO's can fill their jets back up... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #55 December 12, 2008 Quote>If it is American will it be from one of the big three? Probably not. I'd be looking at a Model S (Tesla.) I don't think that's an American brand...UK right? On another note, Honda Accords, Toyota Camrys are two Japanese cars that are more American than their counterparts, more US content, made in KY and OH... Same with Toyota Tundra IIRC... QuoteOf course, now that the bailout has taken money promised to Tesla and given it to the big 3, that car may never be built. Don't worry, the bailout died in the Senate.So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,476 #56 December 12, 2008 >I don't think that's an American brand...UK right? Pretty sure it's US based. >Don't worry, the bailout died in the Senate. Glad to hear it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #57 December 12, 2008 Quote>I don't think that's an American brand...UK right? Pretty sure it's US based. You're right, I am mistaking them for some other exotic outfit across the pond. Their name escapes me.So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheAnvil 0 #58 December 12, 2008 I know perfectly well the corporation's management signed that contract. Had they not, the union would have gone on strike and hurt the shareholders and the company. You really should explore cause and effects. You didn't do as I asked...I wonder why...I really do wonder...perhaps it's because the concept of greater than, less than really doesn't elude you and you don't want to face facts, perhaps? You've yet to enlighten us as to how corporations with labor costs in excess of their competitors can hope to be competitive. I wonder why? Don't want to face the fact that your beloved unions hurt corporations, perhaps? The bill is dead! Whoohoooo! May it remain that way forever. Vinny the Anvil Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL JACKASS POWER!!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #59 December 12, 2008 Quote I know perfectly well the corporation's management signed that contract. Had they not, the union would have gone on strike and hurt the shareholders and the company. You really should explore cause and effects. You didn't do as I asked...I wonder why...I really do wonder...perhaps it's because the concept of greater than, less than really doesn't elude you and you don't want to face facts, perhaps? You've yet to enlighten us as to how corporations with labor costs in excess of their competitors can hope to be competitive. I wonder why? Don't want to face the fact that your beloved unions hurt corporations, perhaps? The bill is dead! Whoohoooo! May it remain that way forever. I think I understand now....thanks.I finally realized after watching this very persuasive video..... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qrsuiD2y3c0 *intermission*Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,683 #60 December 12, 2008 QuoteQuoteI know perfectly well the corporation's management signed that contract. Had they not, the union would have gone on strike and hurt the shareholders and the company. You really should explore cause and effects. Very good Vinny. Your next task is to look up the meaning of "management", and which part of the corporation is responsible for it. ALL of it. Including negotiations with the workforce.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites akarunway 1 #61 December 12, 2008 Quote I know perfectly well the corporation's management signed that contract. Had they not, the union would have gone on strike and hurt the shareholders and the company. You really should explore cause and effects. You didn't do as I asked...I wonder why...I really do wonder...perhaps it's because the concept of greater than, less than really doesn't elude you and you don't want to face facts, perhaps? You've yet to enlighten us as to how corporations with labor costs in excess of their competitors can hope to be competitive. I wonder why? Don't want to face the fact that your beloved unions hurt corporations, perhaps? The bill is dead! Whoohoooo! May it remain that way forever. The bill is dead don't mean a rats ass. They'll get their money>http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Treasury-ready-to-prevent-apf-13817217.html LONG LIVE THE UNION. I hold it true, whate'er befall; I feel it, when I sorrow most; 'Tis better to have loved and lost Than never to have loved at all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #62 December 12, 2008 QuoteMORE wealth envy, eh John? You like that, huh? actually, Vinnie, and I hate to admit it, I agree with John on some of this. Unions encouraging an environment that destroys the business and kills the golden goose - that just means they are incredibly stupid. But John is correct in that, leaders that show bad management are bad managers. WHether they are placed in a bad situation or not. Management is defined by results - you have a crappy labor deal, it's something to fix, deal with, or leave to someone that can handle it better. Bad management and stupid unions is the worst scenario. A good management team would find a way to eliminate the bad union - perhaps bankruptcy instead of gov bailouts is one tool to do that. These bailouts indicate bad management and stupid unions - the worst combo - especially since it's a self sustaining situation until it all falls apart ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diverborg 0 #63 December 12, 2008 QuoteBad management and stupid unions is the worst scenario. A good management team would find a way to eliminate the bad union - perhaps bankruptcy instead of gov bailouts is one tool to do that. Michigan is not a right to work state where you can work for the auto companies without being part of the union. The plants in the rest of this country, mainly in the southeast are doing just fine because they don't have to put up with this horseshit. The UAW will never allow these corporations to ever prosper regardless of who manages them. I love it how people want to point all the fingers to the execs, but the numbers show otherwise. Until someone here can explain to me how that company will ever produce a competitive product and make money with what they're paying their assembly line workers and retirees, then I will take it all as anti-capitalstic propaganda horseshit. The numbers have been layed out, yet those that refute it have nothing to add other than it's managements fault period. (not referring to you Rehmwa) Ponder this. The $50 billion originally on the table would've covered GM for about one quarters worth of losses. 3 months later we're in the same boat. Chapter 11 needs to happen. Even if that company completely liquidated and all 300,000 employees were on the street. That $50billion would be enough money to hand each one of them $166,000. That should be enough money to move anywhere in the country and find a job, and also over 2 yrs worth of salary for the typical assemply worker. I'd rather see the money go to that and see the company go by by, than to have them come back asking for another $50 billion in 3 months. That's worse case scenario, chapter 11 does not mean they are done. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,683 #64 December 12, 2008 QuoteQuoteBad management and stupid unions is the worst scenario. A good management team would find a way to eliminate the bad union - perhaps bankruptcy instead of gov bailouts is one tool to do that. Michigan is not a right to work state where you can work for the auto companies without being part of the union. The plants in the rest of this country, mainly in the southeast are doing just fine because they don't have to put up with this horseshit. The UAW will never allow these corporations to ever prosper regardless of who manages them. I love it how people want to point all the fingers to the execs, but the numbers show otherwise. Until someone here can explain to me how that company will ever produce a competitive product and make money with what they're paying their assembly line workers and retirees, then I will take it all as anti-capitalstic propaganda horseshit. The numbers have been layed out, yet those that refute it have nothing to add other than it's managements fault period. (not referring to you Rehmwa) Ponder this. The $50 billion originally on the table would've covered GM for about one quarters worth of losses. 3 months later we're in the same boat. Chapter 11 needs to happen. Even if that company completely liquidated and all 300,000 employees were on the street. That $50billion would be enough money to hand each one of them $166,000. That should be enough money to move anywhere in the country and find a job, and also over 2 yrs worth of salary for the typical assemply worker. I'd rather see the money go to that and see the company go by by, than to have them come back asking for another $50 billion in 3 months. That's worse case scenario, chapter 11 does not mean they are done. Unfortunately for your analysis, it's not only GM workers who will be on the street. The suppliers, and the companies that provide services, etc. add up to about 3 million workers, not all of whom are lazy underserving UAW members. Bu... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,683 #65 December 12, 2008 QuoteDoesn't bother me- I drive a Nissan with a VIN starting in '1' which means it was put together in the US. First three cars were Chrysler Lebaron that had the engines go TU not much past 100k. Good riddance. Maybe it will bother you when an additional 3 million unemployed hit the streets (collecting benefits paid for with YOUR taxes), the stock martket falls further, more companies go under in the fallout...... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diverborg 0 #66 December 12, 2008 QuoteUnfortunately for your analysis, it's not only GM workers who will be on the street. The suppliers, and the companies that provide services, etc. add up to about 3 million workers, not all of whom are lazy underserving UAW members. I fully understand this. I wasn't giving a realistic scenario, just mainly making a point of how ridiculous of amount of money we're talking and how little difference its going to make for the company if we just dish it out. Chapter 11 bankruptcy doesn't mean that GM will no longer be around. They are on a long track record of losing money and dishing out 1/4's worth of losses isn't going make a damn difference and then we either inevitably file chapter 11 or we give them more money next time. It churns my stomach, but if we have no choice but to give them money, then let them file chapter 11 bankruptcy first then give them some money with some very very strict oversight to where it goes. Help them reorganize with a shred of hope that they will actually turn a profit someday. Why isn't this option on the table? Oh thats right that would mean the union would be broken and there's no way the UAW will ever except that. To hell with the UAW (not in the literal sense) I say, they are hugely responsible for this mess. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,683 #67 December 13, 2008 QuoteActually, no it doesn't. I've been laid off before and suffered through it. I have an older brother that was laid off seven times in ten years. Dad was laid off too after 25 years at Xerox. We all got through it and those others will too. If you're working for the Big 3 better start retraining. Hope you funded your IRA and your Roth as well instead of counting on a pension- it won't be there. Well, you have no profile, Mr. Anonymous, but I strongly suspect you have never seen anything in your lifetime that will compare with the economic impact on the US economy of the Big 3 going under. It's not like the economy is in great shape right now.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diverborg 0 #68 December 13, 2008 QuoteI just watched Ron Gettelfinger's passionate, misty-eyed speech about those poor auto workers that are now being asked to take less and I really wonder if any of them truly have a clue. If that's the UAW response to the bill being killed they can close the book on it right now. Welcome to the world, Ron G. and company. It's a hard, cruel place. Better start to adapt or die. I watched the same thing. I wanted to puke listening to that guy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diverborg 0 #69 December 13, 2008 QuoteWell, you have no profile, Mr. Anonymous, but I strongly suspect you have never seen anything in your lifetime that will compare with the economic impact on the US economy of the Big 3 going under. It's not like the economy is in great shape right now. Typical fear tactics. Do you really think throwing even $50 billion is going to save the big 3. How much should we keep giving them to prevent the "end of the world". United Airlines filed chapter 11 bankruptcy not long after 9/11. It wasn't the end of the world for them and it won't be for the big three either or the rest of civilization for that matter. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TheAnvil 0 #70 December 13, 2008 Oh, I agree that bad management decisions were made - labor negotiations among them. Some situations are not fixable, however. When you have a multi-billion dollar recurring liability that your competitor does not have (job bank) then you simply cannot compete effectively. When you cannot hope to achieve a profit margin on par with your competitors because your costs of labor are too exorbitant with no realistic recourse to correct that imbalance, then you cannot hope to be competitive over the long haul. Not facing the fact that unions did not have a negative impact on the management of these corporations is not facing reality. Vinny the Anvil Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL JACKASS POWER!!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,683 #71 December 13, 2008 Quote Oh, I agree that bad management decisions were made - labor negotiations among them. Some situations are not fixable, however. When you have a multi-billion dollar recurring liability that your competitor does not have (job bank) then you simply cannot compete effectively. When you cannot hope to achieve a profit margin on par with your competitors because your costs of labor are too exorbitant with no realistic recourse to correct that imbalance, then you cannot hope to be competitive over the long haul. Not facing the fact that unions did not have a negative impact on the management of these corporations is not facing reality. Not facing the fact that things got this way in the first place on account of bad management decisions is not facing reality.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,683 #72 December 13, 2008 QuoteQuoteWell, you have no profile, Mr. Anonymous, but I strongly suspect you have never seen anything in your lifetime that will compare with the economic impact on the US economy of the Big 3 going under. It's not like the economy is in great shape right now. Typical fear tactics. Do you really think throwing even $50 billion is going to save the big 3. How much should we keep giving them to prevent the "end of the world". United Airlines filed chapter 11 bankruptcy not long after 9/11. It wasn't the end of the world for them and it won't be for the big three either or the rest of civilization for that matter. In case you hadn't noticed, things are not exactly rosy in the economy right now. Maybe we should have done a lot more to prevent the loss of our core competencies to the Asians. We can't make our way in the world by taking in each others' washing.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diverborg 0 #73 December 13, 2008 QuoteMaybe we should have done a lot more to prevent the loss of our core competencies to the Asians. How do you suggest we do this? Making an inferior product in order to remain competitive price wise because our labor costs are too high isn't helping this fact. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites marks2065 0 #74 December 13, 2008 QuoteQuotebeing an american, if you have an employment problem and drive a foriegn car, you deserve it. Bullshit. Are you a capitalist or not? If the US car companies would make a competitive car, then I'd buy one. They don't, so my free market dollars go where they belong: to the company that makes the best product. Relying on the "Buy American" crap is one of the reason's the car companies felt safe making an inferior product all these years. They failed to learn the lesson from the Japanese car invasion of the 70's and 80's and are still paying the price. I proudly own a Toyota and a Subaru. I'm also strongly against bailing those idiots in Detroit out. then you are part of the unemloyment problem. I never said anything about letting the big 3 make inferior products, the american people have driven them to making inferior products by their stupidity. Being a mechanic for 25 years i have seen and worked on almost every car sold in america. every car company has good cars and bad cars, to bad the people don't listen to me when i recomend the good ones. If people would only by the good cars from the big 3 they would only build the good cars. I have told alot of people not to buy the chrysler 2.7 liter engine, but they show up later with a chrysler with that engine in it. Untill the last 4-6 years kia was a piece of shit but people kept buying them. for alot of years hyundai built crap but people kept buying them. products are created and sold because of demand and sales of poor products continue. another example is champion spark plugs, the lowest quality, most most prone to defect spark plug on the market, is the best selling plug in the US. Why? because they are advertised very good and people don't care about quality. so, because you decided to buy a pice of shit Subaru(and they are pieces of shit, i work on them and they don't even rate in my top 50% of good cars, but toyota is a good car) instead of looking into the good cars sold by American companies you are a part of the problem. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites marks2065 0 #75 December 13, 2008 Quote Quote Oh, I agree that bad management decisions were made - labor negotiations among them. Some situations are not fixable, however. When you have a multi-billion dollar recurring liability that your competitor does not have (job bank) then you simply cannot compete effectively. When you cannot hope to achieve a profit margin on par with your competitors because your costs of labor are too exorbitant with no realistic recourse to correct that imbalance, then you cannot hope to be competitive over the long haul. Not facing the fact that unions did not have a negative impact on the management of these corporations is not facing reality. Not facing the fact that things got this way in the first place on account of bad management decisions is not facing reality. the fact is bending to the unions is the largest part of the problem, but then again what choice did they have? give in to the unions or have them strike and go bankrupt? kinda puts the management in a shitty spot doesn't it? 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akarunway 1 #61 December 12, 2008 Quote I know perfectly well the corporation's management signed that contract. Had they not, the union would have gone on strike and hurt the shareholders and the company. You really should explore cause and effects. You didn't do as I asked...I wonder why...I really do wonder...perhaps it's because the concept of greater than, less than really doesn't elude you and you don't want to face facts, perhaps? You've yet to enlighten us as to how corporations with labor costs in excess of their competitors can hope to be competitive. I wonder why? Don't want to face the fact that your beloved unions hurt corporations, perhaps? The bill is dead! Whoohoooo! May it remain that way forever. The bill is dead don't mean a rats ass. They'll get their money>http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Treasury-ready-to-prevent-apf-13817217.html LONG LIVE THE UNION. I hold it true, whate'er befall; I feel it, when I sorrow most; 'Tis better to have loved and lost Than never to have loved at all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #62 December 12, 2008 QuoteMORE wealth envy, eh John? You like that, huh? actually, Vinnie, and I hate to admit it, I agree with John on some of this. Unions encouraging an environment that destroys the business and kills the golden goose - that just means they are incredibly stupid. But John is correct in that, leaders that show bad management are bad managers. WHether they are placed in a bad situation or not. Management is defined by results - you have a crappy labor deal, it's something to fix, deal with, or leave to someone that can handle it better. Bad management and stupid unions is the worst scenario. A good management team would find a way to eliminate the bad union - perhaps bankruptcy instead of gov bailouts is one tool to do that. These bailouts indicate bad management and stupid unions - the worst combo - especially since it's a self sustaining situation until it all falls apart ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diverborg 0 #63 December 12, 2008 QuoteBad management and stupid unions is the worst scenario. A good management team would find a way to eliminate the bad union - perhaps bankruptcy instead of gov bailouts is one tool to do that. Michigan is not a right to work state where you can work for the auto companies without being part of the union. The plants in the rest of this country, mainly in the southeast are doing just fine because they don't have to put up with this horseshit. The UAW will never allow these corporations to ever prosper regardless of who manages them. I love it how people want to point all the fingers to the execs, but the numbers show otherwise. Until someone here can explain to me how that company will ever produce a competitive product and make money with what they're paying their assembly line workers and retirees, then I will take it all as anti-capitalstic propaganda horseshit. The numbers have been layed out, yet those that refute it have nothing to add other than it's managements fault period. (not referring to you Rehmwa) Ponder this. The $50 billion originally on the table would've covered GM for about one quarters worth of losses. 3 months later we're in the same boat. Chapter 11 needs to happen. Even if that company completely liquidated and all 300,000 employees were on the street. That $50billion would be enough money to hand each one of them $166,000. That should be enough money to move anywhere in the country and find a job, and also over 2 yrs worth of salary for the typical assemply worker. I'd rather see the money go to that and see the company go by by, than to have them come back asking for another $50 billion in 3 months. That's worse case scenario, chapter 11 does not mean they are done. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,683 #64 December 12, 2008 QuoteQuoteBad management and stupid unions is the worst scenario. A good management team would find a way to eliminate the bad union - perhaps bankruptcy instead of gov bailouts is one tool to do that. Michigan is not a right to work state where you can work for the auto companies without being part of the union. The plants in the rest of this country, mainly in the southeast are doing just fine because they don't have to put up with this horseshit. The UAW will never allow these corporations to ever prosper regardless of who manages them. I love it how people want to point all the fingers to the execs, but the numbers show otherwise. Until someone here can explain to me how that company will ever produce a competitive product and make money with what they're paying their assembly line workers and retirees, then I will take it all as anti-capitalstic propaganda horseshit. The numbers have been layed out, yet those that refute it have nothing to add other than it's managements fault period. (not referring to you Rehmwa) Ponder this. The $50 billion originally on the table would've covered GM for about one quarters worth of losses. 3 months later we're in the same boat. Chapter 11 needs to happen. Even if that company completely liquidated and all 300,000 employees were on the street. That $50billion would be enough money to hand each one of them $166,000. That should be enough money to move anywhere in the country and find a job, and also over 2 yrs worth of salary for the typical assemply worker. I'd rather see the money go to that and see the company go by by, than to have them come back asking for another $50 billion in 3 months. That's worse case scenario, chapter 11 does not mean they are done. Unfortunately for your analysis, it's not only GM workers who will be on the street. The suppliers, and the companies that provide services, etc. add up to about 3 million workers, not all of whom are lazy underserving UAW members. Bu... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,683 #65 December 12, 2008 QuoteDoesn't bother me- I drive a Nissan with a VIN starting in '1' which means it was put together in the US. First three cars were Chrysler Lebaron that had the engines go TU not much past 100k. Good riddance. Maybe it will bother you when an additional 3 million unemployed hit the streets (collecting benefits paid for with YOUR taxes), the stock martket falls further, more companies go under in the fallout...... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diverborg 0 #66 December 12, 2008 QuoteUnfortunately for your analysis, it's not only GM workers who will be on the street. The suppliers, and the companies that provide services, etc. add up to about 3 million workers, not all of whom are lazy underserving UAW members. I fully understand this. I wasn't giving a realistic scenario, just mainly making a point of how ridiculous of amount of money we're talking and how little difference its going to make for the company if we just dish it out. Chapter 11 bankruptcy doesn't mean that GM will no longer be around. They are on a long track record of losing money and dishing out 1/4's worth of losses isn't going make a damn difference and then we either inevitably file chapter 11 or we give them more money next time. It churns my stomach, but if we have no choice but to give them money, then let them file chapter 11 bankruptcy first then give them some money with some very very strict oversight to where it goes. Help them reorganize with a shred of hope that they will actually turn a profit someday. Why isn't this option on the table? Oh thats right that would mean the union would be broken and there's no way the UAW will ever except that. To hell with the UAW (not in the literal sense) I say, they are hugely responsible for this mess. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,683 #67 December 13, 2008 QuoteActually, no it doesn't. I've been laid off before and suffered through it. I have an older brother that was laid off seven times in ten years. Dad was laid off too after 25 years at Xerox. We all got through it and those others will too. If you're working for the Big 3 better start retraining. Hope you funded your IRA and your Roth as well instead of counting on a pension- it won't be there. Well, you have no profile, Mr. Anonymous, but I strongly suspect you have never seen anything in your lifetime that will compare with the economic impact on the US economy of the Big 3 going under. It's not like the economy is in great shape right now.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diverborg 0 #68 December 13, 2008 QuoteI just watched Ron Gettelfinger's passionate, misty-eyed speech about those poor auto workers that are now being asked to take less and I really wonder if any of them truly have a clue. If that's the UAW response to the bill being killed they can close the book on it right now. Welcome to the world, Ron G. and company. It's a hard, cruel place. Better start to adapt or die. I watched the same thing. I wanted to puke listening to that guy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diverborg 0 #69 December 13, 2008 QuoteWell, you have no profile, Mr. Anonymous, but I strongly suspect you have never seen anything in your lifetime that will compare with the economic impact on the US economy of the Big 3 going under. It's not like the economy is in great shape right now. Typical fear tactics. Do you really think throwing even $50 billion is going to save the big 3. How much should we keep giving them to prevent the "end of the world". United Airlines filed chapter 11 bankruptcy not long after 9/11. It wasn't the end of the world for them and it won't be for the big three either or the rest of civilization for that matter. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheAnvil 0 #70 December 13, 2008 Oh, I agree that bad management decisions were made - labor negotiations among them. Some situations are not fixable, however. When you have a multi-billion dollar recurring liability that your competitor does not have (job bank) then you simply cannot compete effectively. When you cannot hope to achieve a profit margin on par with your competitors because your costs of labor are too exorbitant with no realistic recourse to correct that imbalance, then you cannot hope to be competitive over the long haul. Not facing the fact that unions did not have a negative impact on the management of these corporations is not facing reality. Vinny the Anvil Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL JACKASS POWER!!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,683 #71 December 13, 2008 Quote Oh, I agree that bad management decisions were made - labor negotiations among them. Some situations are not fixable, however. When you have a multi-billion dollar recurring liability that your competitor does not have (job bank) then you simply cannot compete effectively. When you cannot hope to achieve a profit margin on par with your competitors because your costs of labor are too exorbitant with no realistic recourse to correct that imbalance, then you cannot hope to be competitive over the long haul. Not facing the fact that unions did not have a negative impact on the management of these corporations is not facing reality. Not facing the fact that things got this way in the first place on account of bad management decisions is not facing reality.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,683 #72 December 13, 2008 QuoteQuoteWell, you have no profile, Mr. Anonymous, but I strongly suspect you have never seen anything in your lifetime that will compare with the economic impact on the US economy of the Big 3 going under. It's not like the economy is in great shape right now. Typical fear tactics. Do you really think throwing even $50 billion is going to save the big 3. How much should we keep giving them to prevent the "end of the world". United Airlines filed chapter 11 bankruptcy not long after 9/11. It wasn't the end of the world for them and it won't be for the big three either or the rest of civilization for that matter. In case you hadn't noticed, things are not exactly rosy in the economy right now. Maybe we should have done a lot more to prevent the loss of our core competencies to the Asians. We can't make our way in the world by taking in each others' washing.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diverborg 0 #73 December 13, 2008 QuoteMaybe we should have done a lot more to prevent the loss of our core competencies to the Asians. How do you suggest we do this? Making an inferior product in order to remain competitive price wise because our labor costs are too high isn't helping this fact. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marks2065 0 #74 December 13, 2008 QuoteQuotebeing an american, if you have an employment problem and drive a foriegn car, you deserve it. Bullshit. Are you a capitalist or not? If the US car companies would make a competitive car, then I'd buy one. They don't, so my free market dollars go where they belong: to the company that makes the best product. Relying on the "Buy American" crap is one of the reason's the car companies felt safe making an inferior product all these years. They failed to learn the lesson from the Japanese car invasion of the 70's and 80's and are still paying the price. I proudly own a Toyota and a Subaru. I'm also strongly against bailing those idiots in Detroit out. then you are part of the unemloyment problem. I never said anything about letting the big 3 make inferior products, the american people have driven them to making inferior products by their stupidity. Being a mechanic for 25 years i have seen and worked on almost every car sold in america. every car company has good cars and bad cars, to bad the people don't listen to me when i recomend the good ones. If people would only by the good cars from the big 3 they would only build the good cars. I have told alot of people not to buy the chrysler 2.7 liter engine, but they show up later with a chrysler with that engine in it. Untill the last 4-6 years kia was a piece of shit but people kept buying them. for alot of years hyundai built crap but people kept buying them. products are created and sold because of demand and sales of poor products continue. another example is champion spark plugs, the lowest quality, most most prone to defect spark plug on the market, is the best selling plug in the US. Why? because they are advertised very good and people don't care about quality. so, because you decided to buy a pice of shit Subaru(and they are pieces of shit, i work on them and they don't even rate in my top 50% of good cars, but toyota is a good car) instead of looking into the good cars sold by American companies you are a part of the problem. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marks2065 0 #75 December 13, 2008 Quote Quote Oh, I agree that bad management decisions were made - labor negotiations among them. Some situations are not fixable, however. When you have a multi-billion dollar recurring liability that your competitor does not have (job bank) then you simply cannot compete effectively. When you cannot hope to achieve a profit margin on par with your competitors because your costs of labor are too exorbitant with no realistic recourse to correct that imbalance, then you cannot hope to be competitive over the long haul. Not facing the fact that unions did not have a negative impact on the management of these corporations is not facing reality. Not facing the fact that things got this way in the first place on account of bad management decisions is not facing reality. the fact is bending to the unions is the largest part of the problem, but then again what choice did they have? give in to the unions or have them strike and go bankrupt? kinda puts the management in a shitty spot doesn't it? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
