SecTreas Paulson Now Says Troubled Assets will NOT be Purchased

[Gawain 0]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/financial_meltdown

Guys, I told you so, I told you so, I told you so.

Once passed, the package started off on the wrong foot by buying stock in the 9 biggest banks...

Congress got hoodwinked and now, the very core of what this program was to do, relieve the institutions of the failing assets so that they could regain their footing on their own.



This bailout is the biggest f**k-up in history. You have companies turning themselves in to "banks" so they can belly up to the "free-money" window...http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/11/business/11amex.html?em

Who's next? If I were GM, just have your GMAC arm take over the company and get in line for yours...never mind you've mismanaged yourselves and cow-towed to every union demand over the past 15 years that you can not longer manufacture cars with any kind of profit. Why are they burning through $2B per month anyway?

Hell, reassemble Lehman Bros, and get in line.

Wal-Mart, you're bigger than most banks, so just realign yourselves and come up with a plan...shit, we already have Wal-Marts selling everything else....why not money?

How does everyone feel about this bail out now? Another stimulus? Holy cow people!! What government program has assured your success? Why do you think they can do anything about this?

Get them out of the way, slash the capital gains tax (moratorium for 12 months, gradual reimplementation over another 12 months to a reduced rate), cut the corporate tax rate in half, and put in some practical accounting rules that allows for the ebb and flow of long-term holdings.

Warren Buffet would have invested $10 or $20B in Goldman Sachs I bet, in stead of $5B, if he had a better tax advantage on it. Kerkorian would have seen this as an incentive to increase holdings in GM.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[Misternatural 0]

oye vey, maybe a great depression would be a good thing, the best lessons are learned through intense suffering.

As for GM, we all know that GM is just a gargantuan HMO for its unionized workers who occasionally make cars that people buy.

No , no I think it's time to suffer- my business has been crushed and I have lost a bundle, why because I believe in capitalism in a free market society?
so I live on rice and beans and whatever I can shoot until things get better or I cut my losses and force myself make the necessary changes to make money in a new environment.

Small business and investors don't get a bailout why should larger businesses and investment firms?

DZ's don't get a bailout when the consumer disappears and fuel prices rage.

WTF- you fail- NO BAIL! that goes for everybody- unfortunately your workers will have to find other jobs but that's the price of being stupidly managed or not adapting to economic conditions.

I invite these people to go out in the woods and try survive for a week and see how nature deals with individuals who make the wrong choices. Afterwards a simple bowl of hot soup and a blanket will seem like a fucking luxury. I have more respect for squirrels who know how to prepare for tough times.

Beware of the collateralizing and monetization of your desires.
D S #3.1415

[AWL71 0]

Well Said.

The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help.

[kelpdiver 2]

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Wal-Mart, you're bigger than most banks, so just realign yourselves and come up with a plan...shit, we already have Wal-Marts selling everything else....why not money?

It's not for lack of trying, but faced rather vigorous opposition. They have started opening branches in Mexico this year.

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Get them out of the way, slash the capital gains tax (moratorium for 12 months, gradual reimplementation over another 12 months to a reduced rate), cut the corporate tax rate in half, and put in some practical accounting rules that allows for the ebb and flow of long-term holdings.

How is this anything but a transparent tax cut for the upper 5%? I've yet to see a proposal that isn't vague, making me think it's been more of a political rallying cry than a honest proposal.

Is it supposed to cut capital gain on equity sales? Almost no point, any long term holders are likely down right now. If it included short term holdings, would benefit the day traders, hardly something we need to encourage.

Cut gains on equity purchases made now? Just as great - lost revenue later. Again, the only people who can make good on this are the 5%ers. Anyone below 80% is only putting money into the stock market via their 401k, and that's taxed differently (and somewhat unequally).

[Gawain 0]

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How is this anything but a transparent tax cut for the upper 5%? I've yet to see a proposal that isn't vague, making me think it's been more of a political rallying cry than a honest proposal.

Is it supposed to cut capital gain on equity sales? Almost no point, any long term holders are likely down right now. If it included short term holdings, would benefit the day traders, hardly something we need to encourage.

Cut gains on equity purchases made now? Just as great - lost revenue later. Again, the only people who can make good on this are the 5%ers. Anyone below 80% is only putting money into the stock market via their 401k, and that's taxed differently (and somewhat unequally).

Where do you think capital investment comes from? Billy Joe and Bobby Sue working at McDonalds get nothing from the government putting money they don't have into banks, they are "consumers". They buy, use and perpetuate the cycle that daddy-warbucks sees as opportunity to invest. The top 1% own an overwhelming amount of the "wealth". If the government promises to increase capital gains from 25% to 45%, what are they going to do? Well, they're sure as sh*t not going to invest it.

The banks and short term paper is frozen because it's tied up in daily accounting of long-term investments. So, reform the reporting, and provide an incentive for capital investment from the PRIVATE SECTOR, which is what generates real opportunity and business, and also creates wealth to those willing and able to take the risks. The rest of us are on the coat-tails either way. I'd rather it not be the government's for the long haul. They can't run a business, and they generate no consumable marketable products or services.

Cut all capital gains...all of them. If you're a family selling the house, cut the tax. If you're an investor sitting on millions or billions, cut the tax to release the money into the system. It's better than letting the Fed print more money...and it keeps the politicians from doing 180s every chance they get after they exploit the trust of the people they "serve".

The first stimulus didn't work.

The bailout was a cluster-f**k before it passed.

This next stimulus will not work.

Additional bailouts to companies that refuse to make tough decisions won't work.

We know the answer why to all of these...the government is not the solution. The federal government is overstepping its bounds.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[kelpdiver 2]

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If you're an investor sitting on millions or billions, cut the tax to release the money into the system.

If you're an investor sitting on billions, why would you sell anything right now? Buy high, sell low?

I don't see it doing anything for the economy, the stated reason for the cut. I do see it increasing the deficit, which is a significant part of the reason for the poor economy.

[Gawain 0]

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If you're an investor sitting on millions or billions, cut the tax to release the money into the system.

If you're an investor sitting on billions, why would you sell anything right now? Buy high, sell low?

I don't see it doing anything for the economy, the stated reason for the cut. I do see it increasing the deficit, which is a significant part of the reason for the poor economy.

I'm not talking about selling anything, I'm talking about investing into "something". The market is way oversold right now. What better obstacle to get out of the way for a company seeking capital than to get taxation out of the way. Paulson has changed his mind...and will again...one guy, Congress bought it, and the "checks and balances" are gone.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[Butters 0]

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... the "checks and balances" are gone.

I don't think the checks are gone.

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[kelpdiver 2]

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If you're an investor sitting on millions or billions, cut the tax to release the money into the system.

If you're an investor sitting on billions, why would you sell anything right now? Buy high, sell low?

I don't see it doing anything for the economy, the stated reason for the cut. I do see it increasing the deficit, which is a significant part of the reason for the poor economy.

I'm not talking about selling anything, I'm talking about investing into "something". The market is way oversold right now. What better obstacle to get out of the way for a company seeking capital than to get taxation out of the way. Paulson has changed his mind...and will again...one guy, Congress bought it, and the "checks and balances" are gone.

You need to be precise with the language, the exact point/question I posed.

an investor has investments. So when you talk about that person sitting on billions, it sounds to me like stocks. You instead mean a potential investor with billions in cash. So if you're going to give him a free ride (it's not like sitting in cash is the option he'll take anyway) for an indefinite period if he buys stocks. Would he have forever to sell with no capital gain? How long would this taxfree buying period go for? And how will the government make up for the lost revenue?

[StreetScooby 5]

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This bailout is the biggest f**k-up in history.

This is not inspiring confidence...

We are all engines of karma

[billvon 2,476]

>Get them out of the way, slash the capital gains tax . . .

>Warren Buffet would have invested $10 or $20B in Goldman Sachs I bet,

It is ironic you would use Buffet as an example, since he has been very clear about his position that cutting taxes on low income workers has a far more beneficial impact on the economy than cutting his taxes.

[Gawain 0]

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If you're an investor sitting on millions or billions, cut the tax to release the money into the system.

If you're an investor sitting on billions, why would you sell anything right now? Buy high, sell low?

I don't see it doing anything for the economy, the stated reason for the cut. I do see it increasing the deficit, which is a significant part of the reason for the poor economy.

I'm not talking about selling anything, I'm talking about investing into "something". The market is way oversold right now. What better obstacle to get out of the way for a company seeking capital than to get taxation out of the way. Paulson has changed his mind...and will again...one guy, Congress bought it, and the "checks and balances" are gone.

You need to be precise with the language, the exact point/question I posed.

Sorry we misunderstood.

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an investor has investments. So when you talk about that person sitting on billions, it sounds to me like stocks.

An investor also makes investments and the pool of money they draw from has multiple sources, whether other people, or a pot of money sitting in a bank somewhere.

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You instead mean a potential investor with billions in cash. So if you're going to give him a free ride (it's not like sitting in cash is the option he'll take anyway) for an indefinite period if he buys stocks. Would he have forever to sell with no capital gain? How long would this taxfree buying period go for? And how will the government make up for the lost revenue?

Read my first post, I stated an exact time line for a moratorium on the capital gains tax, with an incremental increase to a fixed rate (yet lower than today's).

How about government quits spending on mandates that have no relevance or Constitutional value. Also, every time there were tax cuts, revenues went up. The Clinton administration was able to balance the budget with Congress because of almost one thing: the capital gains tax. It was cut, and revenues shot up. Institutional investment drives real growth. Government intervention creates headaches, and tramples innovation.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[Gawain 0]

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>Get them out of the way, slash the capital gains tax . . .

>Warren Buffet would have invested $10 or $20B in Goldman Sachs I bet,

It is ironic you would use Buffet as an example, since he has been very clear about his position that cutting taxes on low income workers has a far more beneficial impact on the economy than cutting his taxes.

Yeah, because us lower income people can put money in savings and demand a minimum 10% return per year for five years like Buffet did with Goldman Sachs. He's playing a role nothing more. Before politics, Buffet is a capitalist.

He pays more in capital gains tax than in income tax, so of course he doesn't care what the tax on his income is...

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[kelpdiver 2]

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Read my first post, I stated an exact time line for a moratorium on the capital gains tax, with an incremental increase to a fixed rate (yet lower than today's).

You said 12 months, which implies this is only for sales, not purchases, and that does us no good. Also need to differentiate between regular and long term capital gains.

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How about government quits spending on mandates that have no relevance or Constitutional value. Also, every time there were tax cuts, revenues went up. The Clinton administration was able to balance the budget with Congress because of almost one thing: the capital gains tax. It was cut, and revenues shot up. Institutional investment drives real growth. Government intervention creates headaches, and tramples innovation.

Inject reality - saying cut spending has been the mantra for decades with absolutely no results. After you remove SS/MC (self funded) and the military spending, there's not a lot left.

Clinton substantially raised income taxes, with new and higher brackets. In 1997, the Roth Ira came into being and people could convert their traditional iras and pay the taxes over 4 years. And the stock market was booming, so there were more capital gains to collect, quite a few of them short term in nature (buy IPO, sell next day). You're going to have a difficult time find proof for this argument.

Revenues always trend up - inflation and population growth guarantee it.

[Gawain 0]

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Read my first post, I stated an exact time line for a moratorium on the capital gains tax, with an incremental increase to a fixed rate (yet lower than today's).

You said 12 months, which implies this is only for sales, not purchases, and that does us no good. Also need to differentiate between regular and long term capital gains.

[kelpdiver 2]

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You said 12 months, which implies this is only for sales, not purchases, and that does us no good. Also need to differentiate between regular and long term capital gains.

If things are as bad as everyone says they are, then why differentiate at all? 24 months? 36 months? Phase in over 24 months...

That may be fine, but that remains unstated. So what do you propose, exactly? Can't really debate a fuzzy proposal about cutting capital gains without knowing what we actually mean by it.

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Health and Human Services is the single largest item in the budget: entitlements.

Yes, but it is currently a profit center in the budget. These are obligations by the government for past revenue collection.

[riddler 0]

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You have companies turning themselves in to "banks" so they can belly up to the "free-money" window

I agree with you that Amex is declaring themselves a bank to try to cash in. However, I will say that they've been a bank for over a decade, just without the bricks and mortar. I used them as an online-only bank from 1998-2001. I could mail in deposits (or wire transfer for free), and I could use ATMs to get cash, and I could pay bills online. So the Fed "recognizing" them as a bank isn't a major leap in logic.

Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

[billvon 2,476]

>He pays more in capital gains tax than in income tax, so of course he
>doesn't care what the tax on his income is..

His comment concerned capital gains tax cuts. The gist of it was that a tax cut for him just went into a bank; a tax cut for a lower income person went straight into the economy (i.e. at a local bar.)

[Gawain 0]

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>He pays more in capital gains tax than in income tax, so of course he
>doesn't care what the tax on his income is..

His comment concerned capital gains tax cuts. The gist of it was that a tax cut for him just went into a bank; a tax cut for a lower income person went straight into the economy (i.e. at a local bar.)

I've stated this time and again...Buffet could willingly pay more in taxes. I guarantee you he follows every rule to pay no more than possible. These rich people didn't get rich by giving the government all their money.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[billvon 2,476]

>I've stated this time and again...Buffet could willingly pay more in taxes. I
>guarantee you he follows every rule to pay no more than possible. These
>rich people didn't get rich by giving the government all their money.

Agreed. So they are the last people who need a tax cut.

[Gawain 0]

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>I've stated this time and again...Buffet could willingly pay more in taxes. I
>guarantee you he follows every rule to pay no more than possible. These
>rich people didn't get rich by giving the government all their money.

Agreed. So they are the last people who need a tax cut.

It is not up to the government who "needs" anything. If Buffet wants to give more, fine. If Murdoch thinks he pays enough, who am I or anyone else, to tell him he should pay more.

If we're going to have an income tax, a flat tax or two tier with fewer deductions are all that is needed. All the other taxes are a redundancy.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[kallend 1,683]

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>I've stated this time and again...Buffet could willingly pay more in taxes. I
>guarantee you he follows every rule to pay no more than possible. These
>rich people didn't get rich by giving the government all their money.

Agreed. So they are the last people who need a tax cut.

It is not up to the government who "needs" anything. If Buffet wants to give more, fine. If Murdoch thinks he pays enough, who am I or anyone else, to tell him he should pay more.

If we're going to have an income tax, a flat tax or two tier with fewer deductions are all that is needed. All the other taxes are a redundancy.

You have an unusual grasp of the concept of "tax".

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Gawain 0]

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You have an unusual grasp of the concept of "tax".

No more unusual than certain perceptions that an educator with tenure, in a field with an average salary in six-figures, is middle class.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[SuFantasma 0]

I agree, fuck bailing out ANYONE ! What we need is those $700B towards prosecution and building executive prisons.... make it a showcase of what happens when you outright rape the very fabric of capitalism.

It's refreshing to see that our form of govement is revealing itself... don't know when it happened, but we became a Capitalistic form of govenment tolerating democracy ...

The ugly truth of the manipulative class is unfolding. (that's two notches above the upper class and the ruling class).

Y yo, pa' vivir con miedo, prefiero morir sonriendo, con el recuerdo vivo".
- Ruben Blades, "Adan Garcia"

[kallend 1,683]

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You have an unusual grasp of the concept of "tax".

No more unusual than certain perceptions that an educator with tenure, in a field with an average salary in six-figures, is middle class.

You have to make $5Million a year to be rich. Anything less is middle class.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.