Merit system for teachers

[stitch 0]

At first glance this appears to be a good idea. Higher pay for teachers that do a good job. Although it seems to come from the "No child left behind program" which hinges on standardized tests.

Which leaves the question, what happens to the teachers that don't teach teach subjects that relate directly to these tests i.e. music teachers, art teachers, etc. Is there going to be a seperate program for these teachers

I'm just scratching the surface here. Your thoughts??

"No cookies for you"- GFD
"I don't think I like the sound of that" ~ MB65
Don't be a "Racer Hater"

[pirana 0]

As usual, the devil is in the details; though I would happily volunteer to work thru them for a nominal consulting fee.

All a moot point however since the unions will fight any kind of merit based system to their death.

They no way no how want anybody grading their members performance; and isn't that ironic?

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[BillyVance 34]

I agree with a merit system for above average teachers, especially those who do a great job in poor urban schools where grades and graduation rates are systematically low. Many times you see teachers who just don't care or can't control the class or teach ineffectively. Those are the ones that either - needs to be terminated, or re-tested on their teaching abilities and made to improve in their deficiencies.

The tenure system has been abused time and time again. It just does not work. Teachers need to be held accountable. I would keep the good teachers on tenure, but remove the bad ones from tenure until they improve their performance, and if they do, then put them back on. If they don't, fire them, or to give them one more chance, re-assign them a different class or school within the system. If they still don't improve, then teaching just isn't for them and kick their ass to the curb.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[Amazon 7]

+1

Its what I have been saying for a long long time.

There also needs to be less "Administrators" sucking up the educational dollars. The money needs to go to actually educating furture generations not paying for so many chiefs while the classroom indians are suffering from lack of funding.

[ferdberfel 0]

Like any "merit" system, it will be LOADED with politics and do far more damage than it fixes.

School administrators and Counselers select which students will have which teacher. If you are on the shit list at your school for some reason, you WILL get all of the crappy students with psycho parents.

The reality is that "merit" systems for teachers are a load of bullshit, for the most part. The results are easily manipulated by the administrators. The non-asskissing teachers will be the ones who "fail" on the "merit" system.

If there was to be a merit system for teachers, there needs to be a "merit" system for parents. If the parents don't show up to meet the teacher, don't show up for parent/teacher conferences, don't reply to a teacher's phone calls or emails, then the STUDENT gets expelled so as to make room for more motivated students. Ship the expelled kids off to remedial boarding schools. Force the parents to attend parenting classes while the kids are off at boarding school. Failure to complete parenting classes means the kids stay in boarding school.

These steps will improve schools FAR beyond a bullshit "merit" system for teachers will.

It is the PARENTS responsibility to make sure that students show up at school, dressed, fed, and ready to learn. The PARENTS are responsible to oversee the students performance in school. NOT the teachers.

[pirana 0]

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The PARENTS are responsible to oversee the students performance in school. NOT the teachers.

That would seem to say that teachers are nothing but babysitters. Maybe I'm misinterpreting, but if the parents are responsible for student performance; what are the teachers responsible for? Just handing out lesson plans?

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[pirana 0]

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School administrators and Counselers select which students will have which teacher. If you are on the shit list at your school for some reason, you WILL get all of the crappy students with psycho parents.

One other thing, I was not aware of such a system of placement. That's not a good thing. I can see if there is a VERY special need, otherwise it should be random.

That does get factored out in High School though, at least in our system. Kids register for all classes with lots of slots to pick from.

I am very opinionated and share openly with our teachers and administrators. Wonder if I'm on the psycho list?

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[BillyVance 34]

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The PARENTS are responsible to oversee the students performance in school. NOT the teachers.

That would seem to say that teachers are nothing but babysitters. Maybe I'm misinterpreting, but if the parents are responsible for student performance; what are the teachers responsible for? Just handing out lesson plans?

Parents should be responsible for making sure their kids get to school on time and be polite and respectful to the teachers and other students. Teachers should teach and if a method doesn't work, find one that does. If no methods work, replace the teacher.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[wmw999 2,136]

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School administrators and Counselers select which students will have which teacher. If you are on the shit list at your school for some reason, you WILL get all of the crappy students with psycho parents.

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One other thing, I was not aware of such a system of placement. That's not a good thing. I can see if there is a VERY special need, otherwise it should be random.

It's a political system, like any other. Sometimes it works really well, and the best teachers are rewarded, and the weaker ones either improved or gotten rid of. But sometimes (altogether too often), other considerations drive the judgment of merit.

For instance -- in a conservative district, a male homosexual teacher isn't very likely to be hired, and it'll be based on "qualifications," and not because he's gay. A very conservative teacher in a liberal district won't get the more creative students, "because he won't incite their imaginations as effectively."

Political systems are abused sometimes. And sometimes not. Like any other system, we have to take the bad with the good, and be willing to re-evaluate periodically. Because if you change the system to re-equalize, the players will start playing the new system.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[jimmytavino 16]

it is good to have some sort of merit based, "supplement/bonus" for teachers.....
IN addition to BASE Pay....

Teachers are salaried, which means that they get NO benefit for OVERtime.. and trust me,, they DO put in Over time...( I have a wife who is a 25 year teacher, a daughter who is a 4 year teacher, and 1, 2, 3 4 ...SEVEN other close family members, who teach.) not to mention
4 others who have devoted themselves to that profession and are now retired)

anyway.. they Put in long hours before and after school, AT school, as well as Hours and hours at Home. they spend $$$ out of their own pockets, for everything from school supplies, to classtrips, to hats and gloves, in wintertime.

They work with students whose parents,,, HARDLY EVEN show up for teacher-parent conferences....The question is ... Where does the funding come from, in these times of strapped budgets, and declining willingness of property owners at accept tax increases????

SO then,,, here is My radical approach to FUNDING this well deserved merit pay program.
FINE the parents of any students, who fail to appear at teacher conferences, or worse yet, specifically scheduled meetings
to discuss the I E P ( Individual Educational Program ) of their child... which often entails the attendance of a few teachers, an administrator to two, a guidance counselor, a school psychiatrist, and sometimes a school nurse.... the parents blow off the meeting,, and all these educators, sit there wasting their time, and adding to their frustration levels..

SO fine the parents, for such irresponsibility.
Fine them when junior fails to do the homework, fine them when junior fights in school, or is disruptive (intentionally) in class. Fine them when such behavior is repeated!!!!
and then FINE them some more,, when a fine goes unpaid....
NOT a ton of $$$... 10 or 20 $ per issue...
treat it like a parking ticket,,, let the amount increase over time, when it is ignored...
Force the parents to over see the behavior of the child...
Withhold, social services benefits from the family if they fail to pay. withhold report cards, and promotions of the child.. Withhold Renewals of drivers licenses, and auto registrations, of the parents, as well...

Make the child have to "fear" his parents,,, the way we did 40 years ago...when it comes to misbehavior in school...
When i was a kid, if I screwed up in school and caught hell from the principal, that was the LEAST of it... My dad would have a few things to say about it, when i got home..... and you could be sure,, he'd NOT be happy.
Today, the principal notifies the Parents, and the parents First reaction, is "what did you do to "My Child""???? and "NOT my dear little student, why are you PICKING on hIm? " .. the parents back the kid, regardless of the offense,, instead of teaming up WITH the teachers....

NOW notice ,,, i do NOT endorse Fines for Poor grades,,,, or for having a hard time understanding the work.... on the students' part.. THAT IS the responsibility of the teachers,,, and the Teachers ARE the ones who should be able to work out the means by which the kids learn..
But, disruptive behavior, intransigence, blatant disrespect, mistreatment of one student by another, disrespect of others, and of property,,,, fighting.....
ALL those things should be clearly listed in a "code of conduct" and failure to abide by such codes, should carry, SPECIFIC and spelled out Fine amounts.... comensurate with the offense....
Brief the parents, the students and the teachers at the start of each school year...
Empower the administrators, NOT the teachers, with even handedly enforcing the codes,, and it is likely that quite a chunk of change could be collected,,, with which to fund,, a well deserved merit based bonus program....
should the code result in GOOd behavior and FEW fines,,,, even better.. Most teachers would gladly trade a well disciplined student body, and a peaceful and safe school environment, any day for a few extra dollars in their paychecks...

thank you thank you thank you..
jimmy

[Squeak 17]

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I am very opinionated and share openly with our teachers and administrators. Wonder if I'm on the psycho list?

I know i am
The biggest problem with merit PAY OR BONUSES is that teachers who work with low ability kids can not perform to the required standard.

I work with "problem kids" the standards of education that they come to me with varies from child to child, some kids have a reading level of about grade 3-4 some grade 11 (all my kids are aged 15-19). Now a success for me and one of my kids might be getting that kids butt to school 3 out of 5 days. for another kids it might be passing their year 10 equivalency. for another it might me getting a job as soon as possible to get out of the school system they despise.
Now it would appear that my co-worker and i do a reasonably good job, because many schools in the state are following our setup for dealing with difficult kids.
But since none of my kids are looking at getting matriculation scores to go to University, how would i be rated on the PAY FOR GRADES scheme?

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[PeregrineFalcon 0]

I agree with Squeek here. I work with kids that don't speak English as their first language. Their hard work doesn't always translate into standardized scores. They need much more time to write a paragraph or read a book. When they get that time, coupled with patience, they perform well. In these test situations, they tend to freak out or turn off.

If a merit system is based on standardized tests, some teachers will either get hosed or not want to work with troubled kids, English language learners, or mentally challenged kids. They will be "left behind." If a merit system is based any other way like behavior in the classroom or observations my administration, this may lead to corruption within the system with friends of the administration getting the most money rather than teachers who deserve it.

Last year, we started a testing called NWEA. I forget what the acronym stands for. It's a computer test that gauges the ability of the student in various areas and it's done several times through the year. Kids like taking it better because they can see their own success instantly and have pride in doing better (unlike the STAR testing where they just don't care). I wouldn't mind if this were the way to gauge a teacher's ability. Ninety-six percent of my students improved their NWEA scores consistently throughout the year last year. Someone give me a raise!!

[popsjumper 2]

"Merit systems" are fun to bandy about the field, kick around in the relevant arena and punt back and forth between opposing teams.

Talk is cheap.

Now try to come up with a workable merit system. Start with deciding what your goals are going to be and then (drummroll) do the hard part...come up with a way of honestly and impartially measuring them.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[debussyschild 0]

Wow, this just hit a nerve with me. I'm finishing up my bachelor's in music education and certainly know what the financial situation looks like for teachers. Standardized testing is the bain of our existence. How do you quantitatively evaluate musical performance skills? This is very difficult and often what they resort to is keeping the numbers of superior ratings and students making successful district and state level auditions. This does very little to motivate people to continue with music after secondary school, as there are no more competitions or cool trips. Plainly put, success is the performing and visual arts is very difficult to measure without being subjective. After all, a good performance is a good performance, and that's hard to quantify. But here's the rub: does the fact that the arts are difficult to measure on paper to provide meaningless statistics on overall progress in schools undermine the justification for the study of the arts in schools? All too often this is the case.

"For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

[TheAnvil 0]

I like merit pay.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[jsaxton 0]

I can see that you have a lot of experiance in education.
Parents also need to insure that the student also actually DOES THEIR FUCKING HOMEWORK

[stitch 0]

I'm actually surprised with election fever anybody posted to this thread. It was something Bill Von said in another thread that prompted me to post this. It's dinner-time, I'll read through it later.

"No cookies for you"- GFD
"I don't think I like the sound of that" ~ MB65
Don't be a "Racer Hater"

[jsaxton 0]

I like Tequila, GOOD Tequila.

[BillyVance 34]

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I can see that you have a lot of experiance in education.
Parents also need to insure that the student also actually DOES THEIR FUCKING HOMEWORK

I've never been a teacher, but many relatives on my mom's side were or are now. They all are/were excellent teachers. My mom would have been one if my dad had not pushed her to quit college and get married after he'd gotten his engineering degree.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[kallend 1,635]

When someone invents a fair and accurate way of measuring teacher merit, I will be all for it. So far that has not happened.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[stitch 0]

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When someone invents a fair and accurate way of measuring teacher merit, I will be all for it. So far that has not happened.

I agree. That in itself seems to be the problem.

"No cookies for you"- GFD
"I don't think I like the sound of that" ~ MB65
Don't be a "Racer Hater"

[ferdberfel 0]

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I like merit pay.

In the proper context, like a sales contest. it makes sense.

For most professions, not so much. Intangible contributions, like being a peacemaker between talented buttheads, is often far more valuable than any quantifiable measurement your usual management weenies come up with.