warpedskydiver 0 #1 October 21, 2008 Please try and stick to the topic Needless comments and or whining will be a waste of bandwidth and time. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,434 #2 October 21, 2008 No, because suddenly republicans will stop caring about Rezko and it will go back to being your basic guy convicted of fraud. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,259 #3 October 21, 2008 QuoteNeedless comments and or whining will be a waste of bandwidth and time. 'Cos everything else that goes on here is so important!Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #4 October 21, 2008 QuotePlease try and stick to the topic Needless comments and or whining will be a waste of bandwidth and time. Because this topic doesn't fit into either category? McCain supporters and McCain camp strategy for the final weeks: Don't talk about policy, just throw as much muck and hope something sticks. Rezko's sentencing may happen soon if he cannot lead the Feds to something about Blagojevich (reminder, he is a Dem) as that is the aim of their investigation. Sorry to say that Obama has for the most part been ruled out by investigators. It's the Rushaholics that keep this topic going. I am curious to see when Obama gets into office if Bill'O and Rush continue to spew their current rhetoric of "it's unpatriotic to question the President." Somehow I think not and they go into overdrive on the 2010 midterm elections by starting the anti-dem majority rhetoric train on Nov 5th. You make your predictions, I'll make mine._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
downwardspiral 0 #5 October 21, 2008 QuoteMcCain supporters and McCain camp strategy for the final weeks: Don't talk about policy, just throw as much muck and hope something sticks. Actually I believe there was a discussion about Obama's desire to redistribute wealth which in turn turned into an attack on Joe the plumber. I guess Palin's pregnant daughter is worthy of criticism yet Ayers is perfectly innocent for never having been convicted. Also most recently someone brought up Obama raising taxes for people making $42k or more annually by way of allowing the tax cuts to expire. So much for no tax raises for anyone making less than $250k. I don't have a doubt in my mind Obama is going to win and he'll certainly make history in one way or another. Let's hope he does something good for the country for once.www.FourWheelerHB.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,648 #6 October 21, 2008 QuoteQuoteMcCain supporters and McCain camp strategy for the final weeks: Don't talk about policy, just throw as much muck and hope something sticks. Actually I believe there was a discussion about Obama's desire to redistribute wealth which in turn turned into an attack on Joe the plumber. I guess Palin's pregnant daughter is worthy of criticism yet Ayers is perfectly innocent for never having been convicted. . Ayers? McCain's "Liddy" problem seems to have made Ayers go way. For those who are unaware, Liddy helped plan the Watergate break-in that would cost Nixon his presidency and landed Liddy a four-year jail sentence. Liddy, on Vietnam: "I wanted to bomb the Red River dykes. It would have drowned half the country and starved the other half. There would have been no way the Viet Cong could have operated if we had the will-power to do that." Liddy, advising Branch Davidians how to defend themselves from ATF agents: "If the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms insists upon a firefight, give them a firefight. Just remember, they're wearing flak jackets and you're better off shooting for the head." Liddy, on the impact Adolf Hitler had on him as a child: "It made me feel a strength inside I had never known before. Hitler's sheer animal confidence and power of will entranced me. He sent an electric current through my body." McCain on Liddy: "I'm proud of you, I'm proud of your family," "It's always a pleasure for me to come on your program, Gordon, and congratulations on your continued success and adherence to the principles and philosophies that keep our nation great."... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #7 October 21, 2008 QuoteQuoteMcCain supporters and McCain camp strategy for the final weeks: Don't talk about policy, just throw as much muck and hope something sticks. Actually I believe there was a discussion about Obama's desire to redistribute wealth which in turn turned into an attack on Joe the plumber. I guess Palin's pregnant daughter is worthy of criticism yet Ayers is perfectly innocent for never having been convicted. Also most recently someone brought up Obama raising taxes for people making $42k or more annually by way of allowing the tax cuts to expire. So much for no tax raises for anyone making less than $250k. I don't have a doubt in my mind Obama is going to win and he'll certainly make history in one way or another. Let's hope he does something good for the country for once. After the last 8 years it won't be hard. Also, the Obama campaign never focused on Palin pregnancy thing, nor on G Grodon Liddy, nor on the majority of the lies that McCain has jumped on. Luckily for the country they have stuck to talking about the platform. Also, while the current knee-jerk republican reaction may be to spew "redistribute the wealth" and claim socialism, they should look at the context of what Obama was saying. He wants everyone to have a chance to earn the money, not play Robin Hood (which if you google you will find many Rushaholics spreading that version....it's a good comedic read). If you want to clarify some numbers, did you know that the McCain $5000 dollar for a medical plan is only for couples? It's $2500 a person and a tax on the plan as well. Personally speaking I get screwed heavily due to my medical problems by McCain and will be taking home far less under his setup. Such is life for people with pre-existing conditions they were born with._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #8 October 21, 2008 QuoteMcCain on Liddy: "I'm proud of you, I'm proud of your family," "It's always a pleasure for me to come on your program, Gordon, and congratulations on your continued success and adherence to the principles and philosophies that keep our nation great." Let's not forget that Liddy was willing, and has admitted, that he wanted to kill an innocent American janitor that worked there because he was able to provide evidence of the breakin, he wanted to kidnap the protester's of Nixon to make them go away, planned to kill the journalist Jack Anderson, planned a firebombing of the Brookings Institute, and lets not forget that in 1994 long after his jail term he instructed his radio audience on how to kill ATF agents if they approached your house._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
downwardspiral 0 #9 October 21, 2008 Oh I heard EXACTLY what Obama said and know exactly what he means. The irony is he wants the little guy to have a chance yet he voted to allow the tax cuts to expire. hmmmm. Doesn't he have a record of voting for raising taxes for all groups? I see right through Obama. Oh and Kallend. Ayers at one time said to kill the rich and kill your parents. His wife exclaimed,"Dig it!" regarding the Manson murders. Ayers and co. deliberatly targeted an Army officers' ball with a nail bomb. The saddness does not lie in downplaying Obama's connection to Ayers. I honestly think it's a personal matter whether one views their association as a negative or a nuetral....it certainly is not a positive. However to say Ayers is innocent due to not being convicted is pathetic and only shows Obama could be the devil incarnate himself and still garner your support.www.FourWheelerHB.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,434 #10 October 21, 2008 I see right through McCain. Oh and Downward. Libby at one time told his listeners to kill US government agents. If you have ever worked for the government, he tried to get you murdered. Liddy and co. said they would have killed a janitor to keep themselves out of jail. The sadness does not lie in downplaying McCain's friendship and strong support of Libby. I honestly think it's a personal matter whether one views McCain's praise of him as a negative or a neutral. It certainly is not a positive. However to say we should overlook Libby because he "paid his debt to society" is pathetic and only shows McCain could be the devil incarnate himself and still garner right winger's support. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #11 October 21, 2008 QuoteOh I heard EXACTLY what Obama said and know exactly what he means. The irony is he wants the little guy to have a chance yet he voted to allow the tax cuts to expire. hmmmm. Doesn't he have a record of voting for raising taxes for all groups? Taxes are evil? Something is needed to run this country. Sure McCain can bring up Ireland and their Celtic Tiger & their low corporate tax (which I would like to hear him talk in depth on the 10+ years of history behind that growth and all it's details, but I doubt its more than a talking point to him), but he doesn't mention their VAT and that we have a lower personal income tax. Now we could lower the business tax rate if we closed loopholes that allow you to show a loss despite a record profit year and raised our personal income tax. You can't have it both ways, something has to give. Obama is proposing raising the personal tax rate on the rich to Reagan levels and closing lots of business loopholes. Once the economy stabilized he could then decrease the business tax rate a few points and we'd suffer no ill effects. It's just a question of the American Dream vs. How Much is Too Much. I'd argue that if you make more than $3mil taxable income a year, you can afford to pay a few hundred grand more a year. Because really, how much is too much? I'd argue that if a business is making more than, say, $10mil a year in profits, they can have some loopholes closed to pay more of that to the government for services to our country than to their shareholders. I think that's ok. Most of you, and most of the world, will never have a million dollars. The amount is so large to the average person it's literally staggering and beyond the threshold of reality. A million dollars would give you $50,000 a year in pre-tax interest earnings, in theory. That's more than a lot of people make at their normal jobs working 40 hrs a week. McCain is trying to harp on the point that Obama is taxing the small businesses and killing jobs, but it's total bullshit. The only businesses that would pay more are the profitable ones, and if it means they can offer good health insurance to their employees for less, it's actually a pretty huge net savings. Stop feeling bad for the rich because they might have to cough up a few hundred grand more so your kids can go to college for cheaper, have health care, and some day retire and send their own kids to college. Also, under Bush the top 1% in America grew from holding 8% of the wealth to 20% of the wealth while most people's incomes have gone down slightly and purchasing power 17% for the things a middle class family buys._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
downwardspiral 0 #12 October 21, 2008 When have I ever said anything about the connection between McCain and Liddy bill? McCain's and Liddy's connection is another reason not to like McCain. And Liddy is as sleezy as Ayers. You know what? You're right. Obama and McCain are both fucking sleezy. I'm not voting for either one of them. www.FourWheelerHB.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #13 October 21, 2008 More on taxes btw: Colin Powell: QuoteTaxes are always a redistribution of money. Most of the taxes that are redistributed go back to those who pay them, in roads and airports and hospitals and schools. And taxes are necessary for the common good. And there’s nothing wrong with examining what our tax structure is or who should be paying more or who should be paying less, and for us to say that makes you a socialist is an unfortunate characterization that I don’t think is accurate. High US Corporation taxes are a myth: http://seekingalpha.com/article/100089-high-u-s-corporate-taxes-are-a-myth Study says that most US Corporations pay no taxes: http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSN1249465620080812?sp=true_________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
downwardspiral 0 #14 October 21, 2008 QuoteQuoteOh I heard EXACTLY what Obama said and know exactly what he means. The irony is he wants the little guy to have a chance yet he voted to allow the tax cuts to expire. hmmmm. Doesn't he have a record of voting for raising taxes for all groups? Taxes are evil? Something is needed to run this country. Sure McCain can bring up Ireland and their Celtic Tiger & their low corporate tax (which I would like to hear him talk in depth on the 10+ years of history behind that growth and all it's details, but I doubt its more than a talking point to him), but he doesn't mention their VAT and that we have a lower personal income tax. Now we could lower the business tax rate if we closed loopholes that allow you to show a loss despite a record profit year and raised our personal income tax. You can't have it both ways, something has to give. Obama is proposing raising the personal tax rate on the rich to Reagan levels and closing lots of business loopholes. Once the economy stabilized he could then decrease the business tax rate a few points and we'd suffer no ill effects. It's just a question of the American Dream vs. How Much is Too Much. I'd argue that if you make more than $3mil taxable income a year, you can afford to pay a few hundred grand more a year. Because really, how much is too much? I'd argue that if a business is making more than, say, $10mil a year in profits, they can have some loopholes closed to pay more of that to the government for services to our country than to their shareholders. I think that's ok. Most of you, and most of the world, will never have a million dollars. The amount is so large to the average person it's literally staggering and beyond the threshold of reality. A million dollars would give you $50,000 a year in pre-tax interest earnings, in theory. That's more than a lot of people make at their normal jobs working 40 hrs a week. McCain is trying to harp on the point that Obama is taxing the small businesses and killing jobs, but it's total bullshit. The only businesses that would pay more are the profitable ones, and if it means they can offer good health insurance to their employees for less, it's actually a pretty huge net savings. Stop feeling bad for the rich because they might have to cough up a few hundred grand more so your kids can go to college for cheaper, have health care, and some day retire and send their own kids to college. I would just like to point out I brought up several points. Mostly about taxes and one very smart assed but quick remark about Ayers and what has been the focus here? If a politician want's to raise taxes I'm fine with that. Just fucking say,"I'm raising taxes." As soon as Obama said those making less than $250k per year would not see an increase in taxes I knew it was a lie. That's the democrats MO. Tax the rich? No....tax everybody. And I'm all for paying our way until spending is under control so we can see a decrease in taxes. However a Democrat controlled governmet ill not do that. They'll simply spend what they have until it's time to increase taxes again.www.FourWheelerHB.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #15 October 21, 2008 QuoteAnd I'm all for paying our way until spending is under control so we can see a decrease in taxes. However a Democrat controlled government ill not do that. They'll simply spend what they have until it's time to increase taxes again. It's not like cutting taxes for the first time during a war has worked out well for Bush. Nor has Bush done much to reduce the size of the current Gov't, and thus that costs us more as well. Will removing loopholes have an impact on the entire US population? Of course, which means you could see the tax balance out of your paycheck change but if the plan is done right you will see more money in that check if you make under his $250K mark. Will that happen? I'm not sure and I'm only smart enough to see what impact it will have on what I know and that sways my vote away from McCain. Plus to use a line from Obama: The urgency of Now. Everyone is only looking at the impact today, but not looking at where the ripples will go over the coming years. We closed our eyes to the fuel crisis in the 70s and went for what worked "Now"....I'm pretty sure that hasn't worked for us either._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewEckhardt 0 #16 October 21, 2008 Quote Most of you, and most of the world, will never have a million dollars. Every one in the middle class who bothers to plan for retirement is likely to have at least a million current dollars in the bank by the time that happens. Since you can only withdraw 4% a year without depleting your savings, each million in assets translates into $40K in pre-tax income. Quote The amount is so large to the average person it's literally staggering and beyond the threshold of reality. A million dollars isn't much. Max out your 401K and you'll have $2M to retire on after 30 years. Do the same as a couple and the number is $4M. Work for another decade and the numbers are 4 and $8M. Pretend raises don't exist and invest them instead, start with 3 year old cars and drive them for 10 years instead of eating the depreciation on new vehicles like your co-workers, buy a condo or cottage instead of a McMansion. It's not that hard if you don't have setbacks like health problems. Quote Stop feeling bad for the rich because they might have to cough up a few hundred grand more so your kids can go to college for cheaper, have health care, and some day retire and send their own kids to college. The "rich" shouldn't be paying for your children's education and health care just so your family can live high on the hog spending money on a big house, cars, and junk. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #17 October 21, 2008 Quote A million dollars isn't much. I knew someone would come up retirement numbers. Sure, it's not a big number when it will take the majority of your professional life to store that much away just so you can live an average life once you retire. And as you mentioned, you will only be able to withdraw so much you will still be at a very low tax bracket. I'm talking now, in your 20's, 30's, 40's, 50's. But it won't happen. Most middle class workers are 3-6 paychecks away from being on skid row if they were to lose their jobs and remained unemployed. Most accountants will instruct you to have 6 months worth of liquid assets in the bank in case of emergency and I doubt many even get that far. The rich can give back, and it won't be the people with the good 401k portfolio paying those taxes. And I love how the typical response of some people are "living the high life on welfare" or "living off other's while you enjoy your McMansion," I don't know what world you live in but the people I've met and helped out that are on welfare are pretty hard off and not always due to their actions. That's like saying everyone else out there is like the DZ bum with no job._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #18 October 22, 2008 QuoteLiddy, advising Branch Davidians how to defend themselves from ATF agents: "If the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms insists upon a firefight, give them a firefight. Just remember, they're wearing flak jackets and you're better off shooting for the head." That would be the same ATF/FBI agents that opened fire on a church full of women and children FIRST, right? Or were there some OTHER ATF/FBI agents there?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #19 October 22, 2008 QuoteI don't know what world you live in but the people I've met and helped out that are on welfare are pretty hard off and not always due to their actions. That's like saying everyone else out there is like the DZ bum with no job. Ah, yes, the poor YOU know are DIFFERENT...but all those rich people, THEY'RE all the same, aren't they. Class envy is an ugly, ugly thing - almost as bad as racism.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #20 October 22, 2008 QuoteQuoteI don't know what world you live in but the people I've met and helped out that are on welfare are pretty hard off and not always due to their actions. That's like saying everyone else out there is like the DZ bum with no job. Ah, yes, the poor YOU know are DIFFERENT...but all those rich people, THEY'RE all the same, aren't they. Class envy is an ugly, ugly thing - almost as bad as racism. Ah, the misdirect argument you always bitch about. Nonetheless since the federal income tax was started a redistribution of wealth has always been there in this country. Over time they were given loopholes to never pay those taxes. It's only a topic now because it makes a good, uneducated talking point for a candidate that is trying to get a mad mob to win the election._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
