Usama Bin Ladin, 911

[rhys 0]

Quote

I think his conclusion that the WTC was brought down by controlled demolition charges is incorrect.

O.K. in your mind what would the cause of moulten metal over 5 weeks ofter the collapse be caused by?

surely not plastic and jet fuel in an oxygen starved environment?

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[billvon 2,467]

>O.K. in your mind what would the cause of moulten metal over 5
>weeks ofter the collapse be caused by?

Burning jet fuel, wood, plastic and metal.

[rhys 0]

Righhhhhht.

Please give 'one' example in history of that ever happening before, meaning moulten steel remaining so for weeks on end.

I used to be a jeweller, melting metal is an exact science. plastic, jet fuel, wood? and metal would not remain that hot for that long.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=asu-XzpwP5c

And 502 (and growing) licenced engineers and architechts are also fooled by thier own stupidity no?

http://www.ae911truth.org/

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[billvon 2,467]

> meaning moulten steel remaining so for weeks on end.

Foundries do it all the time.

>I used to be a jeweller, melting metal is an exact science. plastic,
>jet fuel, wood? and metal would not remain that hot for that long.

And yet people used to do it with a pile of coal.

[Amazon 7]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kBIbz-jXrM


Kinda hard to fake an airliner flying into the towers..

Have you ever been in a high rise office building.. the amount of carpet.. wood interiors....desks. plastic computers...etc really is astounding.

Now figure the volume of all that combustible material... produced from oil products...

And lets nor forget... Bin Laden and friends did claim credit to their buddies who visited them from Saudi Arabia.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0FVeqCX6z8

[rhys 0]

Quote

Foundries do it all the time.

And when they take the source of the heat away?

How do you suppose the near perfect cut made in the attached picture was made. Did the metal simply snap without bending at all, where does the once moulten metal surrounding the 'cut' come from?

where did the tonnes of iron appear from? iron is a by product of a thermite reaction. there are high levels of iron found at the site. not steel but iron.

over 500 architects and engineers are not idiots, they would not put thier career on the line. They are questioning this but you guys don't listen to them.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[mnealtx 0]

Those same neo-cons that you keep saying are incompetents and idiots pulled all this off in less than 9 months with NOBODY saying a thing or seeing a thing either before, during or after the event?

Bullcrap.

If it WERE a conspiracy, do you REALLY think the 911truthers would have LIVED to put out their little fantasy film? Do you REALLY think the government would have blinked an eye over killing them, after killing 3k+ in just a few hours?

Bullcrap.

Get a clue.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[rhys 0]

For you science buffs, from agoogle search.

THE JET FUEL; HOW HOT DID IT HEAT
THE WORLD TRADE CENTER?


The Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) report into collapse of the WTC towers, estimates that about 3,500 gallons of jet fuel burnt within each of the towers. Imagine that this entire quantity of jet fuel was injected into just one floor of the World Trade Center, that the jet fuel burnt with perfect efficency, that no hot gases left this floor, that no heat escaped this floor by conduction and that the steel and concrete had an unlimited amount of time to absorb all the heat. With these ideal assumptions we calculate the maximum temperature that this one floor could have reached.

"The Boeing 767 is capable of carrying up to 23,980 gallons of fuel and it is estimated that, at the time of impact, each aircraft had approximately 10,000 gallons of unused fuel on board (compiled from Government sources)."

Quote from the FEMA report into the collapse of WTC's One and Two (Chapter Two).

Since the aircraft were only flying from Boston to Los Angeles, they would have been nowhere near fully fueled on takeoff (the aircraft have a maximum range of 7,600 miles). They would have carried just enough fuel for the trip together with some safety factor. Remember, that carrying excess fuel means higher fuel bills and less paying passengers. The aircraft would have also burnt some fuel between Boston and New York.

"If one assumes that approximately 3,000 gallons of fuel were consumed in the initial fireballs, then the remainder either escaped the impact floors in the manners described above or was consumed by the fire on the impact floors. If half flowed away, then 3,500 gallons remained on the impact floors to be consumed in the fires that followed."

Quote from the FEMA report into the collapse of WTC's One and Two (Chapter Two).

What we propose to do, is pretend that the entire 3,500 gallons of jet fuel was confined to just one floor of the World Trade Center, that the jet fuel burnt with the perfect quantity of oxygen, that no hot gases left this floor and that no heat escaped this floor by conduction. With these ideal assumptions (none of which were meet in reality) we will calculate the maximum temperature that this one floor could have reached. Of course, on that day, the real temperature rise of any floor due to the burning jet fuel, would have been considerably lower than the rise that we calculate, but this estimate will enable us to demonstrate that the "official" explanation is a lie.

Note that a gallon of jet fuel weighs about 3.1 kilograms, hence 3,500 gallons weighs 3,500 x 3.1 = 10,850 kgs.

Jet fuel is a colorless, combustible, straight run petroleum distillate liquid. Its principal uses are as an ingredient in lamp oils, charcoal starter fluids, jet engine fuels and insecticides.

It is also know as, fuel oil #1, kerosene, range oil, coal oil and aviation fuel.

It is comprised of hydrocarbons with a carbon range of C9 - C17. The hydrocarbons are mainly alkanes CnH2n+2, with n ranging from 9 to 17.

It has a flash point within the range 42° C - 72° C (110° F - 162° F).

And an ignition temperature of 210° C (410° F).

Depending on the supply of oxygen, jet fuel burns by one of three chemical reactions:

(1) CnH2n+2 + (3n+1)/2 O2 => n CO2 + (n + 1) H2O

(2) CnH2n+2 + (2n+1)/2 O2 => n CO + (n + 1) H2O

(3) CnH2n+2 + (n+1)/2 O2 => n C + (n + 1) H2O

Reaction (1) occurs when jet fuel is well mixed with air before being burnt, as for example, in jet engines.

Reactions (2) and (3) occur when a pool of jet fuel burns. When reaction (3) occurs the carbon formed shows up as soot in the flame. This makes the smoke very dark.

In the aircraft crashes at the World Trade Center, the impact (with the aircraft going from 500 or 600 mph to zero) would have throughly mixed the fuel that entered the building with the limited amount of air available within. In fact, it is likely that all the fuel was turned into a flammable mist. However, for sake of argument we will assume that 3,500 gallons of the jet fuel did in fact form a pool fire. This means that it burnt according to reactions (2) and (3). Also note that the flammable mist would have burnt according to reactions (2) and (3), as the quantity of oxygen within the building was quite limited.

Since we do not know the exact quantities of oxygen available to the fire, we will assume that the combustion was perfectly efficient, that is, that the entire quantity of jet fuel burnt via reaction (1), even though we know that this was not so. This generous assumption will give a temperature that we know will be higher than the actual temperature of the fire attributable to the jet fuel.

We need to know that the (net) calorific value of jet fuel when burnt via reaction (1) is 42-44 MJ/kg. The calorific value of a fuel is the amount of energy released when the fuel is burnt. We will use the higher value of 44 MJ/kg as this will lead to a higher maximum temperature than the lower value of 42 (and we wish to continue being outrageously generous in our assumptions).

For a cleaner presentation and simpler calculations we will also assume that our hydrocarbons are of the form CnH2n. The dropping of the 2 hydrogen atoms does not make much difference to the final result and the interested reader can easily recalculate the figures for a slightly more accurate result. So we are now assuming the equation:

(4) CnH2n + 3n/2 O2 => n CO2 + n H2O

However, this model, does not take into account that the reaction is proceeding in air, which is only partly oxygen.

Dry air is 79% nitrogen and 21% oxygen (by volume). Normal air has a moisture content from 0 to 4%. We will include the water vapor and the other minor atmospheric gases with the nitrogen.

So the ratio of the main atmospheric gases, oxygen and nitrogen, is 1 : 3.76. In molar terms:


Air = O2 + 3.76 N2.

Because oxygen comes mixed with nitrogen, we have to include it in the equations. Even though it does not react, it is "along for the ride" and will absorb heat, affecting the overall heat balance. Thus we need to use the equation:

(5) CnH2n + 3n/2(O2 + 3.76 N2) => n CO2 + n H2O + 5.64n N2

From this equation we see that the molar ratio of CnH2n to that of the products is:


CnH2n : CO2 : H2O : N2 = 1 : n : n : 5.64n moles
= 14n : 44n : 18n : 28 x 5.64n kgs
= 1 : 3.14286 : 1.28571 : 11.28 kgs
= 31,000 : 97,429 : 39,857 : 349,680 kgs


In the conversion of moles to kilograms we have assumed the atomic weights of hydrogen, carbon, nitrogen and oxygen are 1, 12, 14 and 16 respectively.

Now each of the towers contained 96,000 (short) tons of steel. That is an average of 96,000/117 = 820 tons per floor. Lets suppose that the bottom floors contained roughly twice the amount of steel of the upper floors (since the lower floors had to carry more weight). So we estimate that the lower floors contained about 1,100 tons of steel and the upper floors about 550 tons = 550 x 907.2 ≈ 500,000 kgs. We will assume that the floors hit by the aircraft contained the lower estimate of 500,000 kgs of steel. This generously underestimates the quantity of steel in these floors, and once again leads to a higher estimate of the maximum temperature.

Each story had a floor slab and a ceiling slab. These slabs were 207 feet wide, 207 feet deep and 4 (in parts 5) inches thick and were constructed from lightweight concrete. So each slab contained 207 x 207 x 1/3 = 14,283 cubic feet of concrete. Now a cubic foot of lightweight concrete weighs about 50kg, hence each slab weighed 714,150 ≈ 700,000 kgs. Together, the floor and ceiling slabs weighed some 1,400,000 kgs.

So, now we take all the ingredients and estimate a maximum temperature to which they could have been heated by 3,500 gallons of jet fuel. We will call this maximum temperature T. Since the calorific value of jet fuel is 44 MJ/kg. We know that 3,500 gallons = 31,000 kgs of jet fuel


will release 10,850 x 44,000,000 = 477,400,000,000 Joules of energy.

This is the total quantity of energy available to heat the ingredients to the temperature T. But what is the temperature T? To find out, we first have to calculate the amount of energy absorbed by each of the ingredients.

That is, we need to calculate the energy needed to raise:


39,857 kilograms of water vapor to the temperature T° C,
97,429 kilograms of carbon dioxide to the temperature T° C,
349,680 kilograms of nitrogen to the temperature T° C,
500,000 kilograms of steel to the temperature T° C,
1,400,000 kilograms of concrete to the temperature T° C.


To calculate the energy needed to heat the above quantities, we need their specific heats. The specific heat of a substance is the amount of energy needed to raise one kilogram of the substance by one degree centigrade.


Substance Specific Heat [J/kg*C]
Nitrogen 1,038
Water Vapor 1,690
Carbon Dioxide 845
Lightweight Concrete 800
Steel 450


Substituting these values into the above, we obtain:


39,857 x 1,690 x (T - 25) Joules are needed to heat the water vapor from 25° to T° C,
97,429 x 845 x (T - 25) Joules are needed to heat the carbon dioxide from 25° to T° C,
349,680 x 1,038 x (T - 25) Joules are needed to heat the nitrogen from 25° to T° C,
500,000 x 450 x (T - 25) Joules are needed to heat the steel from 25° to T° C,
1,400,000 x 800 x (T - 25) Joules are needed to heat the concrete from 25° to T° C.


The assumption that the specific heats are constant over the temperature range 25° - T° C, is a good approximation if T turns out to be relatively small (as it does). For larger values of T this assumption once again leads to a higher maximum temperature (as the specific heat for these substances increases with temperature). We have assumed the initial temperature of the surroundings to be 25° C. The quantity, (T - 25)° C, is the temperature rise.

So the amount of energy needed to raise one floor to the temperature T° C is

= (39,857 x 1,690 + 97,429 x 845 + 349,680 x 1,038 + 500,000 x 450 + 1,400,000 x 800) x (T - 25)
= (67,358,330 + 82,327,505 + 362,967,840 + 225,000,000 + 1,120,000,000) x (T - 25) Joules
= 1,857,653,675 x (T - 25) Joules.

Since the amount of energy available to heat this floor is 477,400,000,000 Joules, we have that

1,857,653,675 x (T - 25) = 477,400,000,000
1,857,653,675 x T - 46,441,341,875 = 477,400,000,000

Therefore T = (477,400,000,000 + 46,441,341,875)/1,857,653,675 = 282° C (540° F).

So, the jet fuel could (at the very most) have only added T - 25 = 282 - 25 = 257° C (495° F) to the temperature of the typical office fire that developed.

Remember, this figure is a huge over-estimate, as (among other things) it assumes that the steel and concrete had an unlimited amount of time to absorb the heat, whereas in reality, the jet fuel fire was all over in one or two minutes, and the energy not absorbed by the concrete and steel within this brief period (that is, almost all of it) would have been vented to the outside world.

"The time to consume the jet fuel can be reasonably computed. At the upper bound, if one assumes that all 10,000 gallons of fuel were evenly spread across a single building floor, it would form a pool that would be consumed by fire in less than 5 minutes"

Quote from the FEMA report into the collapse of WTC's One and Two (Chapter Two).

Here are statements from three eye-witnesses that provide evidence that the heating due to the jet fuel was indeed minimal.

Donovan Cowan was in an open elevator at the 78th floor sky-lobby (one of the impact floors of the South Tower) when the aircraft hit. He has been quoted as saying: "We went into the elevator. As soon as I hit the button, that's when there was a big boom. We both got knocked down. I remember feeling this intense heat. The doors were still open. The heat lasted for maybe 15 to 20 seconds I guess. Then it stopped."

Stanley Praimnath was on the 81st floor of the South Tower: "The plane impacts. I try to get up and then I realize that I'm covered up to my shoulder in debris. And when I'm digging through under all this rubble, I can see the bottom wing starting to burn, and that wing is wedged 20 feet in my office doorway."

Ling Young was in her 78th floor office: "Only in my area were people alive, and the people alive were from my office. I figured that out later because I sat around in there for 10 or 15 minutes. That's how I got so burned."

Neither Stanley Praimnath nor Donovan Cowan nor Ling Young were cooked by the jet fuel fire. All three survived.

Summarizing:

We have assumed that the entire 3,500 gallons of jet fuel was confined to just one floor of the World Trade Center, that the jet fuel burnt with perfect efficency, that no hot gases left this floor, that no heat escaped this floor by conduction and that the steel and concrete had an unlimited amount of time to absorb all the heat.

Then it is impossible that the jet fuel, by itself, raised the temperature of this floor more than 257° C (495° F).

Now this temperature is nowhere near high enough to even begin explaining the World Trade Center Tower collapse.

It is not even close to the first critical temperature of 600° C (1,100° F) where steel loses about half its strength and it is nowhere near the quotes of 1500° C that we constantly read about in our lying media.

"In the mid-1990s British Steel and the Building Research Establishment performed a series of six experiments at Cardington to investigate the behavior of steel frame buildings. These experiments were conducted in a simulated, eight-story building. Secondary steel beams were not protected. Despite the temperature of the steel beams reaching 800-900° C (1,500-1,700° F) in three of the tests (well above the traditionally assumed critical temperature of 600° C (1,100° F), no collapse was observed in any of the six experiments."

Quote from the FEMA report (Appendix A).

Recalling that the North Tower suffered no major structural damage from the intense office fire of February 23, 1975, we can conclude that the ensuing office fires of September 11, 2001, also did little extra damage to the towers.

Conclusion:

The jet fuel fires played almost no role in the collapse of the World Trade Center.

So, once again, you have been lied to by the media, are you surprised?

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[mnealtx 0]

[blah blah blah normal conspiracytodaybullshit blah blah blah]

TL:DR

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[billvon 2,467]

>And when they take the source of the heat away?

Then it solidifies.

>How do you suppose the near perfect cut made in the attached picture was made.

Perhaps the metal beam sheared when a load thousands of times higher than it was designed for was applied to it. They do that.

>where did the tonnes of iron appear from? iron is a by product of a
>thermite reaction. there are high levels of iron found at the site. not
>steel but iron.

Over 90% of steel is iron. Rust is 100% iron.

>over 500 architects and engineers are not idiots, they would not put thier
>career on the line.

Why not? If I were an out of work architect, and some one came to me with a petition and said "sign this, we'll get you some money" I might do it if it contained weasel words (i.e. "this may have happened") and I was desperate.

[billvon 2,467]

>We have assumed that the entire 3,500 gallons of jet fuel was confined
> to just one floor of the World Trade Center, that the jet fuel burnt
>with perfect efficency, that no hot gases left this floor, that no heat
>escaped this floor by conduction and that the steel and concrete had an
>unlimited amount of time to absorb all the heat.

>Then it is impossible that the jet fuel, by itself, raised the temperature of
>this floor more than 257° C (495° F).

And yet a plain ol' gasoline fire (under an open overpass) generated over 1000 degrees C, enough to melt trucks and soften and collapse bridge supports. And per the The Handbook of Tunnel Fire Safety, fuel tanker accidents in tunnels can generate fires over 1300C.

I think he may have slipped a decimal point in his calculations.

[AWL71 0]

If we say your "right" will you quit wasting bandwidth with this conspiracy crap?

The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help.

[headoverheels 292]

Quote

... Rust is 100% iron.

No, more like 70% (by weight), the rest being oxygen.

[billvon 2,467]

>No, more like 70% (by weight), the rest being oxygen.

True - but oxygen is readily available in most locations.

[kikkoman 0]

http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=911_morons

You can check out the further reading on the bottom of the page.

[rhys 0]

Quote

Why not? If I were an out of work architect, and some one came to me with a petition and said "sign this, we'll get you some money" I might do it if it contained weasel words (i.e. "this may have happened") and I was desperate.

Paul Asaro
Title: Architect
License #: c22769
Degree: B.A. Architecture
City: Fair Oaks
State: CA
Country: USA
Category: Architects (Degreed & Licensed - Active & Retired)
Discipline: Architecture
Status: Degreed and Licensed
Bio: Twenty-five years experience in the field of architecture and construction, including design and construction administration experience with a steel frame high rise.


Personal 9/11 Statement: NIST has ignored many critical facts and denied basic laws of physics in order to arrive at their fairy tale conclusions. We need a serious investigation done by licensed professionals who are not directly or indirectly on the government payroll.



Irwin Luckman
Title: Architect (retired)
License #: Retired
Degree: B. Arch.
City: Oakland
State: CA
Country: USA
Category: Architects (Degreed & Licensed - Active & Retired)
Discipline: Architecture
Status: Degreed and Licensed
Bio: Education

1939-1942 Cooper Union, NYC
1945 Architectural Association, London, Eng.
1948 B. Arch, Columbia University, NYC
1955 Registered Architect, California

Experience

1943-1946 US Army Infantry, European Combat
1948-1954 Designer and Carpenter
1955-1961 Private Architectural Practice
1961-1962 Professor, School of Architecture, University of Veracruz, Mexico
1962-1968 Chief of Plans, Design and Construction, and then General Manager, East Bay Regional Park District, California
1968-1999 Environmental Planner


Personal 9/11 Statement: Presentation by Richard Gage was convincing. In the future, needs to address questions relating to number of people that would have to have been involved, the fact that no one has come forward to expose their role, and how the complicated and lengthy installation of multiple precisely located explosives was carried out without detection.


Melissa Allin
Title: P.E.
License #: 18704 OK
Degree: B.S.A.E.
City: Comanche
State: OK
Country: USA
Category: Engineers (Degreed & Licensed - Active & Retired)
Discipline: Engineering
Status: Degreed and Licensed
Bio: B.S. Aerospace Engineering, University of Oklahoma. Over 15 years in mechanical design, pumping systems and fluid systems design, design analysis, stress analysis and modeling, fatigue analysis and modeling, large-scale testing, and metallurgical aspects of carbon, alloy, and stainless steels. Included in this experience is approximately seven years in design of thin-walled mechanical systems for high pressure/high temperature environments.


Personal 9/11 Statement: I have spent five years researching and discussing the events of 9/11. The reason I would like to sign this petition for a new investigation is due to the unanswered questions, informational gaps, inconsistencies and discrepancies of the 911 Commission Report in general, and because of the unacceptable work of the NIST in investigating the collapse of the towers specifically.

The trajedy of 9/11 and the mass of civilian deaths that occurred that day demand a proper investigation, unbiased fact-seeking, and full-disclosure. The American people have been charged $16 million by the NIST and received nothing of value in return for that price. I would lose my engineering license if I pulled that stunt.


Verification Status: Verified

Here is around 500 more of these people,

http://www.ae911truth.org/supporters.php?g=_AES_

Obviously a bunch of dropkicks that spend their whole day talking about guns, religion and boobies on the internet, oh I mean conspiracy theories..

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[billvon 2,467]

Rhys, just to make it clear, you can post about your conspiracy theories all you like - but you cannot call other posters here idiots. Your one warning.

[rhys 0]

Please enlighten me as to when i made such a comment?

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[billvon 2,467]

>Please enlighten me as to when i made such a comment?

"You guys are so fucking stupid sometimes . . . .You guys are idiots!"

[rhys 0]

fair enough,

Why did you wait until now?

maybe you are stumped?

You were suggesting the hundereds of engineers and architects that are fighting for a decent investigation about the 911 unemployed, despirate and with motives other than the truth.

Theses 502 professionals as along with many others are experts in the field. hey refute the claims that the NIST came up with, the NIST basicall told us all they can't be bothered looking into the prospects of a demolition.

What happened to 'beyond reasonable doubt'.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[billvon 2,467]

>Why did you wait until now?

Because I missed it in all your attacking of the US (which is not against the rules here) and the non conspiracy theorists (which is also not against the rules.) You just can't directly attack other posters.

[skydyvr 0]

Quote

maybe you are stumped?

Moderator payback because you've soundly trounced his arguments!

That's the ticket!

. . =(_8^(1)

[rhys 0]

Quote

Moderator payback because you've soundly trounced his arguments!

His arguments? they were simply one liners with no scientific merit.

I would think 500+ architechts and engineers would know more about the subject than him and the rest of the belivithist in this forum.

Time will tell i suppose.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[billvon 2,467]

>I would think 500+ architechts and engineers would know more about the subject than him . . .

That's the classic "appeal to authority." "Lots of really smart people said X, so all your arguments are worthless!" And while it can be fun, it's sort of a meaningless and easily overcome tactic, given that the best minds of the NIST came to the opposite conclusion. (And that was analyzed, written and reviewed by far more than 500 people.)

[mnealtx 0]

Go look up implosion world and see their professional response to the 911 truthers - I'm thinking people that blow up buildings as a business trump architects.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706