jclalor 12 #51 September 22, 2008 Many priests and theologians have commented about the gay sub-cultures in Catholic seminaries: An anonymous priest from the Boston area commented in an interview with Joe Fitzgerald of the Boston Herald: "there's a subculture of gay priests and everyone knows it. I went through seminary with a lot of them and got hit on. And when I reported it, I was harassed to a point where, emotionally, it was very difficult to get ordained. I'm not the only one who had to fight to get through it; I know guys who left because of it. It was clear there was a cabal tacitly saying, 'Don't bother reporting this stuff.' You wouldn't believe the self-justifications, like, 'Well, celibacy only applies to not getting married, so since we're not getting married we can do whatever we want.' It was horrible, with a lot of intimidation, but I stayed because I felt this was what God was calling me to do; besides, if I'd walked, they'd have won." 8 Father McBrien, a theologian at the University of Notre Dame, commented that some seminary students "...who feel they have a genuine vocation for priesthood go into a seminary and feel very alienated by the gay culture. I don't say this in any homophobic sense. It's just the reality." 2 Pope John Paul II held a meeting with the American cardinals which dealt with the clerical sex scandals. Afterward, Bishop Wilton Gregory, head of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops said: "One of the difficulties we do face in seminary life or recruitment is made possible when there does exist a homosexual atmosphere or dynamic that makes heterosexual men think twice [about entering.] It is an ongoing struggle to make sure the Catholic priesthood is not dominated by homosexual men." 9 R. Scott Appleby, a history professor at Notre Dame, said: "People I know quite well have left the seminary either in disgust because people are not keeping vows, or in alienation because they’re not gay. In some cases it’s a serious problem." 3 The Most Rev. Wilton Gregory said: "[T]here does exist a homosexual atmosphere or dynamic that makes heterosexual men think twice." 3 The Rev. Charles Bouchard, president of the Aquinas Institute of Theology in St. Louis said: "I think straight priests and seminarians shouldn’t be whining. I just don’t think it’s a big deal." 3 Father Donald Cozzens wrote: "What impact does the gay subcultrue have on the straight priest and seminarian?....straight men in a predominantly or significantly gay environment commonly experience chronic destabilization, a common symptom of which is self doubt...Their psychic confusion, understandably, has significant implications for both their spiritual vitality and emotional balance." 10 Timothy Radcliffe, Master of the Order of Preachers, commented on the emergence of a homosexual sub-culture within a seminary or religious order: "It can threaten the unity of the community; it can make it harder for the brethren to practice the chastity which we have vowed. It can put pressure on brethren to think of themselves in a way that is not central to their vocation as preachers of the Kingdom..." 11 horizontal rule Associated essay: Exclusion of homosexuals from Catholic seminaries Roman Catholic priests with a homosexual orientation. horizontal rule References: The following information sources were used to prepare and update the above essay. The hyperlinks are not necessarily still active today. 1. "Careful Selection And Training Of Candidates For The States Of Perfection And Sacred Orders: (S. C. Rel., 2 Feb., 1961)." Online at: http://www.rcf.org/ 2. "Gay Priests," Religion & Ethics Newsweekly, 2002-MAY-10, at: http://www.pbs.org/ 3. David France, "Gays and the Seminary," MSNBC, 2002-MAY-20, at: http://www.msnbc.com/ 4. "Catholic Seminary Admissions Tighten in Scandal," The Data Lounge, 2002-MAR-27, at: http://www.datalounge.com/ 5. "Vatican threatens gay purge of priesthood," The Data Lounge, 2002-MAR-6, at: http://www.datalounge.com/ 6. Rex Wockner, "The end of Catholicism in America," PlanetOut, at: http://www.planetout.com/ 7. James G. Wolf, "Gay Priests," Harper and Row, 1989, Pages 59-60. Cited in Father Donald Cozzens, "The Changing Face of the Priesthood: A reflection on the priest's crisis of soul," Liturgical Press, (2000), Page 99. 8. Joe Fitzgerald, "Priest fears gays in ranks pose threat to Church," Boston Herald, 2002-MAR-6, at: http://www2.bostonherald.com/ 9. Melinda Henneberger, "Pope delivers apology to victims of sex abuse," New York Times, 2002-APR-24, at: http://www.starnews.com/ 10. Op Cit, Father Donald Cozzens, Page 101. 11. Timothy Radcliffe, O.P., "The Promise of Life," International Dominican Information, # 361, 1998-APR, special number, A Letter to the Order, Page 96. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
maadmax 0 #52 September 22, 2008 ***QuoteQuoteThis isn't a Christian organization. It's a cult, apparently led by a very disturbed individual ] Serious question, where do you draw the line? I personally draw it anytime the person in charge is using it to his advantage and control rather than actually helping people. However, my definition would include a HUGE number of "televangelists" and "tent meetings" in that definition. Anytime some "preacher" is taking some old lady's last dime "in the name of God" or requires you to give a certain amount to the church or is constantly trying to sell you their merchandise or "services" (like E-meter readings), I find that reprehensible. So, I'm curious, where DO most people draw the line between "church" and "cult*** From your description, the same place you do. _________________________________________ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Muenkel 0 #53 September 22, 2008 Quote What percentage of priests have a homosexual orientation? Nobody knows, with any degree of accuracy. Any discussion of the role of homosexual orientation in the priesthood -- in fact any discussion of clergy abuse itself -- is hampered by a lack of hard, reliable data. Some estimates of the percentage of current priests with a homosexual orientation: Analysis of the estimates of others: According to Amanda Ripley of Time Magazine, estimates range from 15% to 50%. 3 According to Bill Blakemore of ABC News, "...nobody knows what percentage of the American priesthood is gay; estimates range from less than 10% to more than 30%." 4 Personal estimates: Richard Sipe, a psychotherapist and former priest, has studied celibacy, chastity, and sexuality in the priesthood for four decades. He has authored three books on the topic. He once estimated that 30% of the priesthood is homosexually oriented. 5 Elsewhere, he is quoted as estimating that between 25% and 45% of American priests are homosexual in orientation. 6 He told the Boston Globe: "If they were to eliminate all those who were homosexually oriented, the number would be so staggering that it would be like an atomic bomb; it would do the same damage to the church's operation...It would mean the resignation of at least a third of the bishops of the world. And it's very much against the tradition of the church; many saints had a gay orientation, and many popes had gay orientations. Discriminating against orientation is not going to solve the problem." Sister Maryanne Walsh, spokesperson for the National Conference of Catholic Bishops, said that it would it be difficult to find evidence to support these Sipe's estimates of the percentage of gay men in the priesthood. She feels that it is also irrelevant. She said: "There’s no real purpose in saying whether someone is homosexual or heterosexual. The issue is whether they can make a commitment [to chastity]." 6 Bishop Jerome Listecki is an auxiliary bishop in Chicago. He estimates that "perhaps more than 10%" of priests have a homosexual orientation." (Emphasis ours). 5 bullet Father Donald Cozzens, an author, psychologist, and Catholic seminary president says that there is such a high percentage of gay priests in the church that he is concerned that “the priesthood is or is becoming a gay profession.” 5 In his book, "The Changing Face of the Priesthood," -- published in the year 2000 -- he estimates that 50% of Roman Catholic priests have a homosexual orientation. A NBC report on chastity and the clergy found that "anywhere from 23 percent to 58 percent" of the Catholic clergy have a homosexual orientation. 7 Author and sociologist James G. Wolfe estimated that 48.5% of priests were gay. 8 Actual surveys: In the Fall of 1999, the Kansas City Star sent a questionnaire to 3,000 priests in the U.S. 73% did not reply. The low response rate could be anticipated. One would expect homosexuals and bisexuals to be reluctant to respond to the questionnaire since it deals with such a sensitive issue, and originated from a newspaper. Homosexual and bisexual priests would probably be less likely to reply to the survey. Among the 801 priests who did reply: 75% said they had a heterosexual orientation 15% homosexual; 5% bisexual. 9 During 1990, Rev. Thomas Crangle, a Franciscan priest in Passaic, N.J., mailed a survey to 500 randomly selected priests. Of the 398 responses, about 45% said that they were gay. 10 Conclusion: If we assume that all of the estimates are of equal validity, then about 33% of priests have a homosexual orientation -- about one in three. However, as Father Donald Cozzens has written: "Beyond these estimates, of course, are priests who remain confused about their orientation and men who have so successfully denied their orientation, that in spite of predominately same-sex erotic fantasies, they insist that they are heterosexual." 11 Many define "homosexuality" in terms of actual same-sex behavior. They regard themselves as not homosexual because they have never acted on their fantasies, desire and orientation. To that might be added an unknown percentage of priests who have a bisexual orientation, and consider themselves neither homosexual or bisexual. horizontal rule Sponsored link: What a load of crap. I don't even know if you have a homosexual orientation. In fact I don't even know who you are. What I realize from your post is that you do not know the difference between an orientation and acting on that orientation. In the Catholic faith, there is no sin in having a homosexual orientation...or any orientation for that matter. The sin lies in whether we act on that orientation. This may come as a surprise to you but it is possible for a man to live a truly chaste life. _________________________________________ Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Amazon 7 #54 September 22, 2008 QuoteWhat I realize from your post is that you do not know the difference between an orientation and acting on that orientation. In the Catholic faith, there is no sin in having a homosexual orientation...or any orientation for that matter. The sin lies in whether we act on that orientation. This may come as a surprise to you but it is possible for a man to live a truly chaste life. Uh Chris dear.. I think all of the priests who HAVE acted on their orientation and have fallen off the chastity wagon... provides pretty good evidence. I think the same goes for the amount of lesbians who are drawn to being nuns.. for a couple thousand years as a way of not having to deal with their non-attraction for men and to be surrounded by women. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Muenkel 0 #55 September 22, 2008 QuoteWhat I realize from your post is that you do not know the difference between an orientation and acting on that orientation. In the Catholic faith, there is no sin in having a homosexual orientation...or any orientation for that matter. The sin lies in whether we act on that orientation. This may come as a surprise to you but it is possible for a man to live a truly chaste life. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Uh Chris dear.. I think all of the priests who HAVE acted on their orientation and have fallen off the chastity wagon... provides pretty good evidence. I think the same goes for the amount of lesbians who are drawn to being nuns.. for a couple thousand years as a way of not having to deal with their non-attraction for men and to be surrounded by women. Oh wise one. I'm so glad you are so schooled in the Catholic faith. Of course there are priests or nuns who have 'fallen off the chastity wagon'. You're discounting their humanity. Like the rest of us, they can get back on that wagon. As my mother always taught me "A saint is a sinner who keeps trying". To everyone: On a side note, I am not referring at all to pedophilia. Any clergy who commits pedophilic acts are criminals and should receive every punishment the justice system can throw at them. I state this because I think some people are lumping the priest pedophilia scandal in with priests/nuns who are homosexual. We know they are far from the same and shouldn't even be compared. _________________________________________ Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Amazon 7 #56 September 22, 2008 QuoteOh wise one. I'm so glad you are so schooled in the Catholic faith. Your sarcasm is misplaced. 4 years of Catholic parochial school and nuns for teachers in my formative years and 5 years of Lutheran schools...gives me a very personal perspective on both faiths thank you. I also have a former boss/current friend who spent his young life in parochial schools and then the seminary on his way to the priesthood. He checked out of the priesthood about 10 years ago. He is one very gay man and was more than willing to tell all about his "education" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Muenkel 0 #57 September 22, 2008 So you had 4 years of Catholic school. I had 10 plus a Catholic University. Neither amounts to a hill of beans. If you have any questions about the true teachings of the Catholic faith, I would suggest studying the Catechism of the Catholic faith. If you're not interested, that is your perogative and there's nothing wrong with that. I choose to believe in my faith as I am sure you choose yours. Once again, nothing wrong with that. _________________________________________ Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites FallingOsh 0 #58 September 22, 2008 Quote Serious question, where do you draw the line? I personally draw it anytime the person in charge is using it to his advantage and control rather than actually helping people. However, my definition would include a HUGE number of "televangelists" and "tent meetings" in that definition. Anytime some "preacher" is taking some old lady's last dime "in the name of God" or requires you to give a certain amount to the church or is constantly trying to sell you their merchandise or "services" (like E-meter readings), I find that reprehensible. So, I'm curious, where DO most people draw the line between "church" and "cult"? I also find it reprehensible and it makes me sick to see people being taken advantage of in the name of religion. However, your question goes back to the same problem of defining an entire group by the actions of a very very small percentage of it's supposed members. Saying Christianity is a cult because there are scum bag televangelists is like saying Islam is a murderous hate cult because of those like OBL. -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,647 #59 September 22, 2008 QuoteQuote Serious question, where do you draw the line? I personally draw it anytime the person in charge is using it to his advantage and control rather than actually helping people. However, my definition would include a HUGE number of "televangelists" and "tent meetings" in that definition. Anytime some "preacher" is taking some old lady's last dime "in the name of God" or requires you to give a certain amount to the church or is constantly trying to sell you their merchandise or "services" (like E-meter readings), I find that reprehensible. So, I'm curious, where DO most people draw the line between "church" and "cult"? I also find it reprehensible and it makes me sick to see people being taken advantage of in the name of religion. However, your question goes back to the same problem of defining an entire group by the actions of a very very small percentage of it's supposed members. Saying Christianity is a cult because there are scum bag televangelists is like saying Islam is a murderous hate cult because of those like OBL. I don't particularly care where you or Paul draw the line. I just wish Christians would take care of the obvious problems in their religion BEFORE presuming to get legislation passed that affects all of us, Christian and non-Christian alike. "And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?" Jesus, according to Matt. 7:3–5; Luke 6:41–42.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Amazon 7 #60 September 22, 2008 Uh.. I had a few years of catechism....and I have not been interested in over 30 years Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Muenkel 0 #61 September 22, 2008 QuoteI don't particularly care where you or Paul draw the line. I just wish Christians would take care of the obvious problems in their religion BEFORE presuming to get legislation passed that affects all of us, Christian and non-Christian alike. And what laws exactly are Christians pushing through the legislature? _________________________________________ Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Muenkel 0 #62 September 22, 2008 Quote Uh.. I had a few years of catechism....and I have not been interested in over 30 years If you're not interested, why are you debating it? _________________________________________ Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites FallingOsh 0 #63 September 22, 2008 Quote I don't particularly care where you or Paul draw the line. I just wish Christians would take care of the obvious problems in their religion BEFORE presuming to get legislation passed that affects all of us, Christian and non-Christian alike. "And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?" Jesus, according to Matt. 7:3–5; Luke 6:41–42. What obvious problems are you referring to that are tolerated by the Church? No crime or sin is encouraged. Everyone has problems. -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,647 #64 September 22, 2008 QuoteQuote I don't particularly care where you or Paul draw the line. I just wish Christians would take care of the obvious problems in their religion BEFORE presuming to get legislation passed that affects all of us, Christian and non-Christian alike. "And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?" Jesus, according to Matt. 7:3–5; Luke 6:41–42. What obvious problems are you referring to that are tolerated by the Church? No crime or sin is encouraged. Everyone has problems. The RCs have a long record of denying the problems in their priesthood. Yet they push to have womens' reproductive rights revoked at every opportunity.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Muenkel 0 #65 September 22, 2008 QuoteThe RCs have a long record of denying the problems in their priesthood. Yet they push to have womens' reproductive rights revoked at every opportunity. 2 seperate issues here.: First, they have addressed the priest pedophilia scandal. They have instituted a much stricter screening process for the priesthood. Second, they are fighting for the rights of the unborn child which they believe to be a seperate human being who is entitled to a chance at life. It is their belief and they stand by it. Contrary to what your will is, there are many other religions and people who agree with them on this issue. Religion is a very dominant entity in the world fabric. Your opinion will never change that. _________________________________________ Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites livendive 8 #66 September 22, 2008 QuoteQuoteQuoteJohn, You've been active in these forums for many years. Even though I haven't agreed with you on some issues, I told you that I thought you were an honest poster. Here's my question and I have no doubt that I will get an honest answer: What was your motivation in posting that article and wording the title of the thread the way you did? Apparently you didn't read the verses about casting the beam out of one's own eye... I've not noticed Jews, Hindus or Buddhists trying to get their morality enshrined in US law. Just Christians. I've not noticed Jews, Hindus or Buddhists lecturing others about their values. Just Christians. If you choose to throw stones, you should first ensure your house isn't made of glass. So, you can show all that legislation proving your point, then? Or is this just your normal smears against anyone that doesn't agree with your view? It seems to me the laws against polygamy could be considered "Christian" laws. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jclalor 12 #67 September 23, 2008 QuoteQuoteI really think the percentage of pedophiles, gays, and men with just all around issues involving sex are much higher than the general population in the catholic church. Any time someone commits to a life with zero sex is bound to have, or is going to have major issues with sex. When I was 12 I spent a weekend at a catholic seminary and the vast majority of guys were fucking strange. Source please, --------------------------------------------------------- Were these not good sources ? Plus here are just a few of the the things the religious right has done or tried to block. Prayer in schools Abortion Ten commandments in courthouses and schools ID taught in schools Don't ask don't tell Stem cell research Gay marriage i Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jclalor 12 #68 September 23, 2008 BTW, Priest have a four times higher rate of HIV / aids than the general population, that does not sound like they are very celebrate. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,427 #69 September 23, 2008 >Priest have a four times higher rate of HIV / aids than the general >population, that does not sound like they are very celebrate. Sounds to me like they celebrate a LOT. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites quade 3 #70 September 23, 2008 Quote>Priest have a four times higher rate of HIV / aids than the general >population, that does not sound like they are very celebrate. Sounds to me like they celebrate a LOT. Not necessarily. Could be that with all the abstinence only programs they're just not prepared and don't have the right safety equipment with them.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites gjhdiver 0 #71 September 23, 2008 Quote What you guys won't admit is that there is approximately the same rate of homosexuality, pedophilia, murder, etc in the church/Christianity as there is outside. This is true. However, society in general tends to abhor and punish pedophilia, whereas the Catholic Church has spent decades protecting the abusers and vilifying their victims. That's why we get to poke Catholics with a stick. For the most part it's a reaction to the smug hypocrisy that many Christians exhibit. It's a similar sort of schadenfreude as when the most vocal minister or GOP senator is found to be a secret player of the pink oboe, usually in a public setting. Mr. Kallend, you have my vote.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jpjc2000 0 #72 September 23, 2008 QuoteQuoteKallend you stoop to new lows. This isn't a Christian organization. It's a cult, apparently led by a very disturbed individual. If you hate Christians, I don't care, but pointing to this as indicative of Christianity only exposes your ignorance. Well, it's not like the Roman Catholics don't have the same problem, is it? Or are they a "cult" too? All religions are power/money/ego hungry cults for the most part IMO Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Lucky... 0 #73 September 23, 2008 QuoteQuote What you guys won't admit is that there is approximately the same rate of homosexuality, pedophilia, murder, etc in the church/Christianity as there is outside. This is true. However, society in general tends to abhor and punish pedophilia, whereas the Catholic Church has spent decades protecting the abusers and vilifying their victims. That's why we get to poke Catholics with a stick. For the most part it's a reaction to the smug hypocrisy that many Christians exhibit. It's a similar sort of schadenfreude as when the most vocal minister or GOP senator is found to be a secret player of the pink oboe, usually in a public setting. Mr. Kallend, you have my vote.... Well, that's true, the reaction is different and abhorent, I was just speaking from a demographics point. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites shortyj 0 #74 September 23, 2008 QuoteQuoteNormally people attack what they are afraid of. It seems many of you live in a state of anger and unforgiveness. Why? I know my fellow christian all too well. I spent YEARS in parochial school. I spent years in our church choir, we were very involved in our church. We knew our paster too well. I know my fellow christians very very well. You didn't answer his question. Some news you can spend time in church, in the choir all your life and not be a christian. You say you know you fellow christian all to well, my guess is you know OF your fellow christian. You probably know OF Jesus, but my guess is you don't personally know Him.Playtime is essential. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masterblaster72 0 #75 September 23, 2008 Quote Chrisitianity is not about what we do or do not do... ... Chrisitianity... organized or not, but thru Jesus, not by WHAT I do or do not do. Which is one of the many reasons why I am not a Christian. What people DO is what defines them. What people "have in their heart"...or their "faith" or "intention" is all BS to me. Actions define who you are -- the rest is all bullshit. Be humble, ask questions, listen, learn, follow the golden rule, talk when necessary, and know when to shut the fuck up. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 3 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. 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Muenkel 0 #53 September 22, 2008 Quote What percentage of priests have a homosexual orientation? Nobody knows, with any degree of accuracy. Any discussion of the role of homosexual orientation in the priesthood -- in fact any discussion of clergy abuse itself -- is hampered by a lack of hard, reliable data. Some estimates of the percentage of current priests with a homosexual orientation: Analysis of the estimates of others: According to Amanda Ripley of Time Magazine, estimates range from 15% to 50%. 3 According to Bill Blakemore of ABC News, "...nobody knows what percentage of the American priesthood is gay; estimates range from less than 10% to more than 30%." 4 Personal estimates: Richard Sipe, a psychotherapist and former priest, has studied celibacy, chastity, and sexuality in the priesthood for four decades. He has authored three books on the topic. He once estimated that 30% of the priesthood is homosexually oriented. 5 Elsewhere, he is quoted as estimating that between 25% and 45% of American priests are homosexual in orientation. 6 He told the Boston Globe: "If they were to eliminate all those who were homosexually oriented, the number would be so staggering that it would be like an atomic bomb; it would do the same damage to the church's operation...It would mean the resignation of at least a third of the bishops of the world. And it's very much against the tradition of the church; many saints had a gay orientation, and many popes had gay orientations. Discriminating against orientation is not going to solve the problem." Sister Maryanne Walsh, spokesperson for the National Conference of Catholic Bishops, said that it would it be difficult to find evidence to support these Sipe's estimates of the percentage of gay men in the priesthood. She feels that it is also irrelevant. She said: "There’s no real purpose in saying whether someone is homosexual or heterosexual. The issue is whether they can make a commitment [to chastity]." 6 Bishop Jerome Listecki is an auxiliary bishop in Chicago. He estimates that "perhaps more than 10%" of priests have a homosexual orientation." (Emphasis ours). 5 bullet Father Donald Cozzens, an author, psychologist, and Catholic seminary president says that there is such a high percentage of gay priests in the church that he is concerned that “the priesthood is or is becoming a gay profession.” 5 In his book, "The Changing Face of the Priesthood," -- published in the year 2000 -- he estimates that 50% of Roman Catholic priests have a homosexual orientation. A NBC report on chastity and the clergy found that "anywhere from 23 percent to 58 percent" of the Catholic clergy have a homosexual orientation. 7 Author and sociologist James G. Wolfe estimated that 48.5% of priests were gay. 8 Actual surveys: In the Fall of 1999, the Kansas City Star sent a questionnaire to 3,000 priests in the U.S. 73% did not reply. The low response rate could be anticipated. One would expect homosexuals and bisexuals to be reluctant to respond to the questionnaire since it deals with such a sensitive issue, and originated from a newspaper. Homosexual and bisexual priests would probably be less likely to reply to the survey. Among the 801 priests who did reply: 75% said they had a heterosexual orientation 15% homosexual; 5% bisexual. 9 During 1990, Rev. Thomas Crangle, a Franciscan priest in Passaic, N.J., mailed a survey to 500 randomly selected priests. Of the 398 responses, about 45% said that they were gay. 10 Conclusion: If we assume that all of the estimates are of equal validity, then about 33% of priests have a homosexual orientation -- about one in three. However, as Father Donald Cozzens has written: "Beyond these estimates, of course, are priests who remain confused about their orientation and men who have so successfully denied their orientation, that in spite of predominately same-sex erotic fantasies, they insist that they are heterosexual." 11 Many define "homosexuality" in terms of actual same-sex behavior. They regard themselves as not homosexual because they have never acted on their fantasies, desire and orientation. To that might be added an unknown percentage of priests who have a bisexual orientation, and consider themselves neither homosexual or bisexual. horizontal rule Sponsored link: What a load of crap. I don't even know if you have a homosexual orientation. In fact I don't even know who you are. What I realize from your post is that you do not know the difference between an orientation and acting on that orientation. In the Catholic faith, there is no sin in having a homosexual orientation...or any orientation for that matter. The sin lies in whether we act on that orientation. This may come as a surprise to you but it is possible for a man to live a truly chaste life. _________________________________________ Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #54 September 22, 2008 QuoteWhat I realize from your post is that you do not know the difference between an orientation and acting on that orientation. In the Catholic faith, there is no sin in having a homosexual orientation...or any orientation for that matter. The sin lies in whether we act on that orientation. This may come as a surprise to you but it is possible for a man to live a truly chaste life. Uh Chris dear.. I think all of the priests who HAVE acted on their orientation and have fallen off the chastity wagon... provides pretty good evidence. I think the same goes for the amount of lesbians who are drawn to being nuns.. for a couple thousand years as a way of not having to deal with their non-attraction for men and to be surrounded by women. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Muenkel 0 #55 September 22, 2008 QuoteWhat I realize from your post is that you do not know the difference between an orientation and acting on that orientation. In the Catholic faith, there is no sin in having a homosexual orientation...or any orientation for that matter. The sin lies in whether we act on that orientation. This may come as a surprise to you but it is possible for a man to live a truly chaste life. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Uh Chris dear.. I think all of the priests who HAVE acted on their orientation and have fallen off the chastity wagon... provides pretty good evidence. I think the same goes for the amount of lesbians who are drawn to being nuns.. for a couple thousand years as a way of not having to deal with their non-attraction for men and to be surrounded by women. Oh wise one. I'm so glad you are so schooled in the Catholic faith. Of course there are priests or nuns who have 'fallen off the chastity wagon'. You're discounting their humanity. Like the rest of us, they can get back on that wagon. As my mother always taught me "A saint is a sinner who keeps trying". To everyone: On a side note, I am not referring at all to pedophilia. Any clergy who commits pedophilic acts are criminals and should receive every punishment the justice system can throw at them. I state this because I think some people are lumping the priest pedophilia scandal in with priests/nuns who are homosexual. We know they are far from the same and shouldn't even be compared. _________________________________________ Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #56 September 22, 2008 QuoteOh wise one. I'm so glad you are so schooled in the Catholic faith. Your sarcasm is misplaced. 4 years of Catholic parochial school and nuns for teachers in my formative years and 5 years of Lutheran schools...gives me a very personal perspective on both faiths thank you. I also have a former boss/current friend who spent his young life in parochial schools and then the seminary on his way to the priesthood. He checked out of the priesthood about 10 years ago. He is one very gay man and was more than willing to tell all about his "education" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Muenkel 0 #57 September 22, 2008 So you had 4 years of Catholic school. I had 10 plus a Catholic University. Neither amounts to a hill of beans. If you have any questions about the true teachings of the Catholic faith, I would suggest studying the Catechism of the Catholic faith. If you're not interested, that is your perogative and there's nothing wrong with that. I choose to believe in my faith as I am sure you choose yours. Once again, nothing wrong with that. _________________________________________ Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FallingOsh 0 #58 September 22, 2008 Quote Serious question, where do you draw the line? I personally draw it anytime the person in charge is using it to his advantage and control rather than actually helping people. However, my definition would include a HUGE number of "televangelists" and "tent meetings" in that definition. Anytime some "preacher" is taking some old lady's last dime "in the name of God" or requires you to give a certain amount to the church or is constantly trying to sell you their merchandise or "services" (like E-meter readings), I find that reprehensible. So, I'm curious, where DO most people draw the line between "church" and "cult"? I also find it reprehensible and it makes me sick to see people being taken advantage of in the name of religion. However, your question goes back to the same problem of defining an entire group by the actions of a very very small percentage of it's supposed members. Saying Christianity is a cult because there are scum bag televangelists is like saying Islam is a murderous hate cult because of those like OBL. -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,647 #59 September 22, 2008 QuoteQuote Serious question, where do you draw the line? I personally draw it anytime the person in charge is using it to his advantage and control rather than actually helping people. However, my definition would include a HUGE number of "televangelists" and "tent meetings" in that definition. Anytime some "preacher" is taking some old lady's last dime "in the name of God" or requires you to give a certain amount to the church or is constantly trying to sell you their merchandise or "services" (like E-meter readings), I find that reprehensible. So, I'm curious, where DO most people draw the line between "church" and "cult"? I also find it reprehensible and it makes me sick to see people being taken advantage of in the name of religion. However, your question goes back to the same problem of defining an entire group by the actions of a very very small percentage of it's supposed members. Saying Christianity is a cult because there are scum bag televangelists is like saying Islam is a murderous hate cult because of those like OBL. I don't particularly care where you or Paul draw the line. I just wish Christians would take care of the obvious problems in their religion BEFORE presuming to get legislation passed that affects all of us, Christian and non-Christian alike. "And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?" Jesus, according to Matt. 7:3–5; Luke 6:41–42.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #60 September 22, 2008 Uh.. I had a few years of catechism....and I have not been interested in over 30 years Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Muenkel 0 #61 September 22, 2008 QuoteI don't particularly care where you or Paul draw the line. I just wish Christians would take care of the obvious problems in their religion BEFORE presuming to get legislation passed that affects all of us, Christian and non-Christian alike. And what laws exactly are Christians pushing through the legislature? _________________________________________ Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Muenkel 0 #62 September 22, 2008 Quote Uh.. I had a few years of catechism....and I have not been interested in over 30 years If you're not interested, why are you debating it? _________________________________________ Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FallingOsh 0 #63 September 22, 2008 Quote I don't particularly care where you or Paul draw the line. I just wish Christians would take care of the obvious problems in their religion BEFORE presuming to get legislation passed that affects all of us, Christian and non-Christian alike. "And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?" Jesus, according to Matt. 7:3–5; Luke 6:41–42. What obvious problems are you referring to that are tolerated by the Church? No crime or sin is encouraged. Everyone has problems. -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,647 #64 September 22, 2008 QuoteQuote I don't particularly care where you or Paul draw the line. I just wish Christians would take care of the obvious problems in their religion BEFORE presuming to get legislation passed that affects all of us, Christian and non-Christian alike. "And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?" Jesus, according to Matt. 7:3–5; Luke 6:41–42. What obvious problems are you referring to that are tolerated by the Church? No crime or sin is encouraged. Everyone has problems. The RCs have a long record of denying the problems in their priesthood. Yet they push to have womens' reproductive rights revoked at every opportunity.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Muenkel 0 #65 September 22, 2008 QuoteThe RCs have a long record of denying the problems in their priesthood. Yet they push to have womens' reproductive rights revoked at every opportunity. 2 seperate issues here.: First, they have addressed the priest pedophilia scandal. They have instituted a much stricter screening process for the priesthood. Second, they are fighting for the rights of the unborn child which they believe to be a seperate human being who is entitled to a chance at life. It is their belief and they stand by it. Contrary to what your will is, there are many other religions and people who agree with them on this issue. Religion is a very dominant entity in the world fabric. Your opinion will never change that. _________________________________________ Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #66 September 22, 2008 QuoteQuoteQuoteJohn, You've been active in these forums for many years. Even though I haven't agreed with you on some issues, I told you that I thought you were an honest poster. Here's my question and I have no doubt that I will get an honest answer: What was your motivation in posting that article and wording the title of the thread the way you did? Apparently you didn't read the verses about casting the beam out of one's own eye... I've not noticed Jews, Hindus or Buddhists trying to get their morality enshrined in US law. Just Christians. I've not noticed Jews, Hindus or Buddhists lecturing others about their values. Just Christians. If you choose to throw stones, you should first ensure your house isn't made of glass. So, you can show all that legislation proving your point, then? Or is this just your normal smears against anyone that doesn't agree with your view? It seems to me the laws against polygamy could be considered "Christian" laws. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jclalor 12 #67 September 23, 2008 QuoteQuoteI really think the percentage of pedophiles, gays, and men with just all around issues involving sex are much higher than the general population in the catholic church. Any time someone commits to a life with zero sex is bound to have, or is going to have major issues with sex. When I was 12 I spent a weekend at a catholic seminary and the vast majority of guys were fucking strange. Source please, --------------------------------------------------------- Were these not good sources ? Plus here are just a few of the the things the religious right has done or tried to block. Prayer in schools Abortion Ten commandments in courthouses and schools ID taught in schools Don't ask don't tell Stem cell research Gay marriage i Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jclalor 12 #68 September 23, 2008 BTW, Priest have a four times higher rate of HIV / aids than the general population, that does not sound like they are very celebrate. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,427 #69 September 23, 2008 >Priest have a four times higher rate of HIV / aids than the general >population, that does not sound like they are very celebrate. Sounds to me like they celebrate a LOT. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites quade 3 #70 September 23, 2008 Quote>Priest have a four times higher rate of HIV / aids than the general >population, that does not sound like they are very celebrate. Sounds to me like they celebrate a LOT. Not necessarily. Could be that with all the abstinence only programs they're just not prepared and don't have the right safety equipment with them.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites gjhdiver 0 #71 September 23, 2008 Quote What you guys won't admit is that there is approximately the same rate of homosexuality, pedophilia, murder, etc in the church/Christianity as there is outside. This is true. However, society in general tends to abhor and punish pedophilia, whereas the Catholic Church has spent decades protecting the abusers and vilifying their victims. That's why we get to poke Catholics with a stick. For the most part it's a reaction to the smug hypocrisy that many Christians exhibit. It's a similar sort of schadenfreude as when the most vocal minister or GOP senator is found to be a secret player of the pink oboe, usually in a public setting. Mr. Kallend, you have my vote.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jpjc2000 0 #72 September 23, 2008 QuoteQuoteKallend you stoop to new lows. This isn't a Christian organization. It's a cult, apparently led by a very disturbed individual. If you hate Christians, I don't care, but pointing to this as indicative of Christianity only exposes your ignorance. Well, it's not like the Roman Catholics don't have the same problem, is it? Or are they a "cult" too? All religions are power/money/ego hungry cults for the most part IMO Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Lucky... 0 #73 September 23, 2008 QuoteQuote What you guys won't admit is that there is approximately the same rate of homosexuality, pedophilia, murder, etc in the church/Christianity as there is outside. This is true. However, society in general tends to abhor and punish pedophilia, whereas the Catholic Church has spent decades protecting the abusers and vilifying their victims. That's why we get to poke Catholics with a stick. For the most part it's a reaction to the smug hypocrisy that many Christians exhibit. It's a similar sort of schadenfreude as when the most vocal minister or GOP senator is found to be a secret player of the pink oboe, usually in a public setting. Mr. Kallend, you have my vote.... Well, that's true, the reaction is different and abhorent, I was just speaking from a demographics point. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites shortyj 0 #74 September 23, 2008 QuoteQuoteNormally people attack what they are afraid of. It seems many of you live in a state of anger and unforgiveness. Why? I know my fellow christian all too well. I spent YEARS in parochial school. I spent years in our church choir, we were very involved in our church. We knew our paster too well. I know my fellow christians very very well. You didn't answer his question. Some news you can spend time in church, in the choir all your life and not be a christian. You say you know you fellow christian all to well, my guess is you know OF your fellow christian. You probably know OF Jesus, but my guess is you don't personally know Him.Playtime is essential. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masterblaster72 0 #75 September 23, 2008 Quote Chrisitianity is not about what we do or do not do... ... Chrisitianity... organized or not, but thru Jesus, not by WHAT I do or do not do. Which is one of the many reasons why I am not a Christian. What people DO is what defines them. What people "have in their heart"...or their "faith" or "intention" is all BS to me. Actions define who you are -- the rest is all bullshit. Be humble, ask questions, listen, learn, follow the golden rule, talk when necessary, and know when to shut the fuck up. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 3 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
jclalor 12 #68 September 23, 2008 BTW, Priest have a four times higher rate of HIV / aids than the general population, that does not sound like they are very celebrate. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,427 #69 September 23, 2008 >Priest have a four times higher rate of HIV / aids than the general >population, that does not sound like they are very celebrate. Sounds to me like they celebrate a LOT. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #70 September 23, 2008 Quote>Priest have a four times higher rate of HIV / aids than the general >population, that does not sound like they are very celebrate. Sounds to me like they celebrate a LOT. Not necessarily. Could be that with all the abstinence only programs they're just not prepared and don't have the right safety equipment with them.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gjhdiver 0 #71 September 23, 2008 Quote What you guys won't admit is that there is approximately the same rate of homosexuality, pedophilia, murder, etc in the church/Christianity as there is outside. This is true. However, society in general tends to abhor and punish pedophilia, whereas the Catholic Church has spent decades protecting the abusers and vilifying their victims. That's why we get to poke Catholics with a stick. For the most part it's a reaction to the smug hypocrisy that many Christians exhibit. It's a similar sort of schadenfreude as when the most vocal minister or GOP senator is found to be a secret player of the pink oboe, usually in a public setting. Mr. Kallend, you have my vote.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jpjc2000 0 #72 September 23, 2008 QuoteQuoteKallend you stoop to new lows. This isn't a Christian organization. It's a cult, apparently led by a very disturbed individual. If you hate Christians, I don't care, but pointing to this as indicative of Christianity only exposes your ignorance. Well, it's not like the Roman Catholics don't have the same problem, is it? Or are they a "cult" too? All religions are power/money/ego hungry cults for the most part IMO Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #73 September 23, 2008 QuoteQuote What you guys won't admit is that there is approximately the same rate of homosexuality, pedophilia, murder, etc in the church/Christianity as there is outside. This is true. However, society in general tends to abhor and punish pedophilia, whereas the Catholic Church has spent decades protecting the abusers and vilifying their victims. That's why we get to poke Catholics with a stick. For the most part it's a reaction to the smug hypocrisy that many Christians exhibit. It's a similar sort of schadenfreude as when the most vocal minister or GOP senator is found to be a secret player of the pink oboe, usually in a public setting. Mr. Kallend, you have my vote.... Well, that's true, the reaction is different and abhorent, I was just speaking from a demographics point. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shortyj 0 #74 September 23, 2008 QuoteQuoteNormally people attack what they are afraid of. It seems many of you live in a state of anger and unforgiveness. Why? I know my fellow christian all too well. I spent YEARS in parochial school. I spent years in our church choir, we were very involved in our church. We knew our paster too well. I know my fellow christians very very well. You didn't answer his question. Some news you can spend time in church, in the choir all your life and not be a christian. You say you know you fellow christian all to well, my guess is you know OF your fellow christian. You probably know OF Jesus, but my guess is you don't personally know Him.Playtime is essential. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterblaster72 0 #75 September 23, 2008 Quote Chrisitianity is not about what we do or do not do... ... Chrisitianity... organized or not, but thru Jesus, not by WHAT I do or do not do. Which is one of the many reasons why I am not a Christian. What people DO is what defines them. What people "have in their heart"...or their "faith" or "intention" is all BS to me. Actions define who you are -- the rest is all bullshit. Be humble, ask questions, listen, learn, follow the golden rule, talk when necessary, and know when to shut the fuck up. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
