Question for those who don't believe in a higher power.

[crwtom 0]

Quote

Regardless of your faith or belief, you probably have some idea as to how it all began.

no I don't -- and I don't think anyone here really has ...

Cheers, T

*******************************************************************
Fear causes hesitation, and hesitation will cause your worst fears to come true

[georgerussia 0]

Quote

You seemed to have skipped over the phrase 'private revelation'. I am not talking about proving anything to the masses. I am stating that you cannot prove that God has not made His existence known to any individual.

But then it's useless.
If the person already believes in God, he tends to treat everything as 'private revelation', like "the flowers around me is a proof God exist".
However I do not know anyone who would believe in God _after_ experiencing this 'private revelation'. It always happens in opposite order.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[Muenkel 0]

Quote

You seemed to have skipped over the phrase 'private revelation'. I am not talking about proving anything to the masses. I am stating that you cannot prove that God has not made His existence known to any individual.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


But then it's useless.
If the person already believes in God, he tends to treat everything as 'private revelation', like "the flowers around me is a proof God exist".
However I do not know anyone who would believe in God _after_ experiencing this 'private revelation'. It always happens in opposite order.

You sure about that?

What amazes me about those who have replied to my hypothetical is the fact that they all seem to know without a doubt that in regard to this topic, what every human being on the face of the earth or that has ever lived; what they may or may not have experienced at some time in their life. Amazing!

_________________________________________
Chris

[georgerussia 0]

Quote

You sure about that?
What amazes me about those who have replied to my hypothetical is the fact that they all seem to know without a doubt that in regard to this topic, what every human being on the face of the earth or that has ever lived; what they may or may not have experienced at some time in their life. Amazing!

Same way you must believe there are triple-headed men with one eye and 18ft height. Right? Unless you check every human being, how could you be sure that there is no such person?

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[georgerussia 0]

Quote

Having spent many years of my life trying to reconcile my view of God with the 1st Law Of Thermo, that's the only view that now makes sense to me.

I wonder if there was an applicability problem for 1st law of thermo, how the introduction of God solves it?

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[beowulf 1]

What is the difference between 'private revelation' and halucination, wishful thinking or misinterpretation. Just because some claims to have heard the voice of god and truly believes doesn't mean they actually did. There is absolutly no way to verify what they claim. So it is worthless as far as evidence is concerned.

[billvon 2,434]

>But then it's useless.

Why is it useless? If someone manages to turn their lives around because of their belief in God, it's far from useless.

[beowulf 1]

If you believe in one god you should believe in them all since they all have the same amount of evidence of their existence.

[billvon 2,434]

> If you believe in one god you should believe in them all since they
> all have the same amount of evidence of their existence.

That's like saying you should believe simultaneously that a coin hidden inside a box is a quarter, a penny, a nickel and a dime all at the same time, since there is no visible evidence of its denomination. It's probably more intelligent to assume that it is one of several possibilities, perhaps even make a guess, subject to later revision. Odds are, though, that it is not every coin simultaneously.

[georgerussia 0]

Quote

Why is it useless? If someone manages to turn their lives around because of their belief in God, it's far from useless.

It's useless because if person already believes in God, they do not need any revelations or proofs of his existence.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[beowulf 1]

I am sure there are plenty of people who have a 'private revelation' concerning their chosen deity. Why wouldn't that be enough to show that their deity exists? It works for one god shouldn't it work for all?

[Muenkel 0]

I threw out a theorum, a hypothetical. For some reason, it seems to touch a nerve with some people. What I am hearing is that some refuse to even consider its possibilities. That doesn't make a very good scientific thinker. Perhaps some folks are frightened that it could actually be true. Personally, it's a topic that fascinates me. Now I'll have to wonder why it frightens others or why others would dismiss it so quickly and easily. More things to ponder. I love it.

_________________________________________
Chris

[beowulf 1]

How would anyone quantify the 'private revelation' of everyone who has one? How can you tell whether one true or false?

It's pretty easy to dismiss since there is no way to verify a 'private revelation'.

[JackC 0]

Quote

I threw out a theorum, a hypothetical. For some reason, it seems to touch a nerve with some people. What I am hearing is that some refuse to even consider its possibilities. That doesn't make a very good scientific thinker. Perhaps some folks are frightened that it could actually be true. Personally, it's a topic that fascinates me. Now I'll have to wonder why it frightens others or why others would dismiss it so quickly and easily. More things to ponder. I love it.

Oh... My... God...

We've not refused to consider your hypothetical. We merely pointed out the great big, enormous, gaping hole in it. And rather than ponder the massive hole in your theory, you conclude that we must be frightened of it.

Fookin spiders.

[livendive 8]

Quote

I threw out a theorum, a hypothetical. For some reason, it seems to touch a nerve with some people. What I am hearing is that some refuse to even consider its possibilities. That doesn't make a very good scientific thinker. Perhaps some folks are frightened that it could actually be true. Personally, it's a topic that fascinates me. Now I'll have to wonder why it frightens others or why others would dismiss it so quickly and easily. More things to ponder. I love it.

I haven't heard anyone seem afraid of it. You said someone could have a private revelation from God. Several people pointed out that, given the evidence available to us, a hallucination is a more probable explanation. Further, it's been stated that the recipient of the revelation/hallucination would have no way of knowing which it was.

Ask a paranoid person if people are out to get him. He'll not only say yes, but he'll honestly believe it. People may or may not actually be after him, and his claim/belief doesn't substantiate either possibility. A religious person claiming to have experienced a revelation/hallucination has not proven the existence of a God any more than an atheist claiming to have not experienced such an event has proven the non-existence of a God.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[jcd11235 0]

Quote

Odds are, though, that it is not every coin simultaneously.

Before or after Schrödinger's cat coin has been observed?

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[Muenkel 0]

I would expect a gifted scientific thinker (which I am definitely not), would respond to my hypothetical in the following way: "Although I have not personally seen scientific proof of a true private revelation from God, I have also not seen scientific proof of the absence of a true private revelation from God; therefore I could not claim that either theory is correct."

_________________________________________
Chris

[beowulf 1]

Which would make them meaningless. By them I mean the 'private revelation'.

[JackC 0]

Actually, if a "gifted" scientific thinker said that, it would make him an idiot.

[Muenkel 0]

No, it would make him a humble gifted scientific thinker.

_________________________________________
Chris

[livendive 8]

Quote

I would expect a gifted scientific thinker (which I am definitely not), would respond to my hypothetical in the following way: "Although I have not personally seen scientific proof of a true private revelation from God, I have also not seen scientific proof of the absence of a true private revelation from God; therefore I could not claim that either theory is correct."

A person who has not experienced such an event has anecdotal evidence that, at a minimum, such things don't happen to everyone. A person who has experienced such an event has anecdotal evidence that such things do occur to at least some people. The sceptic can provide an explanation for such events that fits in with current knowledge, and he may even be able to provide repeatable examples of similar events that are entirely stress or drug induced. The believer's only evidence of such an event is his own claim.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[billvon 2,434]

> I am sure there are plenty of people who have a 'private revelation'
> concerning their chosen deity. Why wouldn't that be enough to show
> that their deity exists?

For them, it might well be.

>It works for one god shouldn't it work for all?

It depends on the person, not any one particular portrayal of God.

[Muenkel 0]

Quote

The believer's only evidence of such an event is his own claim.

Yeah, so? I'm talking about 'private revelations'. Notice the word 'private'?

Does the fact that it is private and experienced by a particular person make it impossible to be truthful?

_________________________________________
Chris

[beowulf 1]

It makes it impossible to verify, therefore useless as evidence.
I wouldn't say the person was lying as they could believe it to be true, but that doesn't mean it is true.

[Muenkel 0]

Man you're stubborn.

Who's talking about 'evidence'? I simply asked a hypothetical question as to whether a private revelation from God to an individual may exist. The answer should be 'yes' or 'no'. if 'no', where's the proof?

_________________________________________
Chris