Society and morality.

[jakee 1,257]

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Maybe you'd like to pop around to Number 10 and we can discuss it over a breakfast briefing?

As long as 'breakfast briefing' isn't a euphemism for something Little Britainish...

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Skyrad 0]

LOL

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[livendive 8]

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My point is how we address the issues of a general society being ever more immoral.

How are you defining moral and immoral?

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My view points to a generic moral code. I feel the proper honest encouragement of religion can at least aid this problem. All your trying to do is gob off about religion being a load of pish again.

The moral code is the key here. If for you religion isn't the answer then fine! What is? Atheism certainly isn't. You can 'morally' do whatever you like then. If it isn't religion, then what's the alternative. An all enforcing police state?

Assuming that the purpose of "morality" is, at its core, propogation of the species, religion is simply a method of coaxing moral behavior from immoral people. Moral people will for the most part act morally regardless of which god (if any) they worship. Given that religion does not equal morality, a lack of religion does not equal a lack of morality.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[mnealtx 0]

We can shut this thread down, now... Jamile nailed it!

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Skyrad 0]

Cheers Mike

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[kbordson 8]

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We can shut this thread down, now... Jamile nailed it!

I have to agree too. He made some very valid points.

But.... encouraging the media will be a VERY difficult task. You are proposing a moral censorship of the press .... But we can't fully blame them. The stations are just showing what "we want" (ie what sells). So telling them don't focus on Paris Hilton even though her notoriety pays the bills for them won't work. "Everybody" feels better about themselves when they see her scandals.... "see, I'm not THAT bad." or "maybe having all that money wouldn't be so good." The Lifetime channel (which does focus on happiness and good deeds of others) doesn't really sell to anyone but those that need a good cry.

To change "society" - we need to change the "Person." And since we can't make others change without fear or manipulation... we must each just change ourselves. And hope that others do the same.

But.... that assumes quite a bit of trust in others.

Does religion need to play a part? I don't believe so. I was raised Catholic. Even did the whole Catholic school thing until high school.... I saw just as much lying, cheating and vicious behaviour at St. Dennis as I saw in the public school at East. It's just that at St. Dennis, you prayed for forgiveness and *poof* you were rightous again. That does NOT encourage one to lead a moral life.

[Skyrad 0]

Sure but the public are gulible and the media tycoons are greedy. Who decides what the public want, it's certainly not the public. I think you can sell pretty much anything to the public if its spun in the right way. Not saying it's easy but I do believe its do' able.
As for religion, well in my 'manifesto' it was simply support for organisations of interfaith dialouge and co-operation to foster a more co-hesive society rather than a stuffing of belife down the throats of those who are quite happy as they are.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[nerdgirl 0]

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Sure but the public are gulible and the media tycoons are greedy. Who decides what the public want, it's certainly not the public. I think you can sell pretty much anything to the public if its spun in the right way. Not saying it's easy but I do believe its do' able.

I'm not sure if I'm just not understanding your proposal correctly (always a possibility), much of what seems to be suggested sounds like the underlying thesis of Edward Herman & Noam Chomsky's Manufacturing Consent.

VR/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[jakee 1,257]

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Sure but the public are gulible and the media tycoons are greedy.

And vapid celebrity/pseudo-celebrity/reality type shit is the easiest money spinner that the media have right now. What are you going to do that's going to 'influence' them into giving up that golden calf?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jcd11235 0]

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Who decides what the public want, it's certainly not the public.

TV, is it a reflector or the director?

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[Skyrad 0]

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Sure but the public are gulible and the media tycoons are greedy. Who decides what the public want, it's certainly not the public. I think you can sell pretty much anything to the public if its spun in the right way. Not saying it's easy but I do believe its do' able.

I'm not sure if I'm just not understanding your proposal correctly (always a possibility), much of what seems to be suggested sounds like the underlying thesis of Edward Herman & Noam Chomsky's Manufacturing Consent.

VR/Marg

Hi Marg
I hadn't read (or even heard) of it but just thats exactly what I'm talking about.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Skyrad 0]

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Sure but the public are gulible and the media tycoons are greedy.

And vapid celebrity/pseudo-celebrity/reality type shit is the easiest money spinner that the media have right now. What are you going to do that's going to 'influence' them into giving up that golden calf?

You're right, and maybe I didn't make it clear enough in my previous post but this is what I'm talking about

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The media would encourage the promotion of celebrities who work for society rather than those who live off it.
The use of reality TV to make celebrities from ordinary people who go out of their way to make an improvement in the lives of others and who actively work for a cohesive, caring disciplined society. Make life expectations more real by showing real people living real lives making a real change not just by spending money but spending their time and energy.

So get the vapid celebs on board and make new celebs out of ordinary people (Thats what they do anyway) The celebs will jump on any band wagon to stay in the limelight and will support whatever it is that the media portrays to be the passionate subject of the masses. Thats not to say that the masses have to start off feeling passionate about it (look at the current global warming issue) Celebs used to wear fur until the media painted people wearing fur to be monsters. Clebs jumped on that band wagon too, remember all the naked models now many of them wear fur again. Why? because everyone is supposedly more worried about saving on their carbon footprint
Bottom line is use what is available to you, the cult of the Celeb is available may as well use it rather than try to banish it.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[livendive 8]

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7) Women mistook equality with a licence to emulate the very worst loutish behaviour of men without the checks. If a man wants to get laid the check is the woman, if a woman wants to get laid its a forgone conclusion. Hence a rise in promiscuity.

Just out of curiousity, what makes promiscuity "immoral"?

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[Skyrad 0]

I didn't mention anything about it being moral or immoral, just gave a reason for the rise in the behaviour.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[jakee 1,257]

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I didn't mention anything about it being moral or immoral, just gave a reason for the rise in the behaviour.

The clue's in the thread title dude, if you didn't think it was immoral then why d'ya mention it?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Skyrad 0]

Because promiscuity is widely seen to be a form of immoral behaviour. Is promiscuity immoral behaviour? Thats for each and every one of us in western society to take our own stand on. I think maybe thats what Vortexring was alluding to when he spoke about religion giving us a set of rules to live by in his original post.
Humans like to know where the boundries are, if eveyone makes their own when it comes to morals then that makes for a confused society as we each do our own thing within our set of morals whilst offending others by going beyond what they percive to be the limits of morality.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Samurai136 0]

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What solutions can you provide?

Have people read the first 5 chapters of C.S. Lewis' Mere Christianity. He discusses the reality of an objective moral law that all human beings are aware of.


For those who are suspicious of religion; try Francois Tremblay's
The case for Objective Morality

"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian
Ken

[jakee 1,257]

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Because promiscuity is widely seen to be a form of immoral behaviour.

Well then my second clue as to your stance on promiscuity was when you lumped it in with "the very worst loutish behaviour". Why do you think it's so bad?

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Humans like to know where the boundries are, if eveyone makes their own when it comes to morals then that makes for a confused society as we each do our own thing within our set of morals whilst offending others by going beyond what they percive to be the limits of morality.

So people are getting offended. Fuck 'em if they can't mind their own business.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[kbordson 8]

Whether promiscuity is or isn't immoral, it does cause problems for the society, including increased transference of sexually transmitted infections (even with condom use). In my clinic, I often test for gonorrhea, chlamydia, syphilis, Hep B and C, HIV, HPV and occasionally herpes simplex 2. That's eight diseases that are transfered primarily by sexual contact. Decrease promiscuity, decrease those diseases.

The other effect of promiscuity is jealousy. Right or wrong, people get possessive of his/her significant other. When it is learned that one has been betrayed, the other can become violent. Is that rage the fault of the one being promiscious or the one being violent?

But having society rules limiting that situation just makes it easier for everyone to play nice.

[Skyrad 0]

Couldn't have put it better.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Skyrad 0]

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Humans like to know where the boundries are, if eveyone makes their own when it comes to morals then that makes for a confused society as we each do our own thing within our set of morals whilst offending others by going beyond what they percive to be the limits of morality.

So people are getting offended. Fuck 'em if they can't mind their own business.

[jakee 1,257]

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The other effect of promiscuity is jealousy. Right or wrong, people get possessive of his/her significant other.

So you equate promiscuity with cheating?

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When it is learned that one has been betrayed, the other can become violent. Is that rage the fault of the one being promiscious or the one being violent?

Is rape the fault of the chick in the short skirt?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jakee 1,257]

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And you too if you happen to be the victim of what somone else sees as justifiable behaviour in which you end up on the recieving end, its not just promiscuity were talking about.

And that's just it - 'receiving end'. People who are offended by casual sex have been on the receiving end of what, exactly?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[kbordson 8]

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The other effect of promiscuity is jealousy. Right or wrong, people get possessive of his/her significant other.

So you equate promiscuity with cheating?

Not saying that at all. Even if it's not a committed relationship, people get possessive. People feel hurt. Hurt feelings can lead to inappropriate actions.

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When it is learned that one has been betrayed, the other can become violent. Is that rage the fault of the one being promiscious or the one being violent?

Is rape the fault of the chick in the short skirt?

I am ABSOLUTELY NOT saying that. DO NOT PUT THOSE WORDS IN MY MOUTH. Actions are the fault of the one doing the act, but the emotions come from somewhere. Betrayal can lead to anger and rage. Maturity and communication help resolve those problems... but not everybody has maturity or an open communication. If you can ensure that in your promiscious society that no one gets hurt.... go for it. But in reality that doesn't occur often.

[jakee 1,257]

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I am ABSOLUTELY NOT saying that. DO NOT PUT THOSE WORDS IN MY MOUTH. Actions are the fault of the one doing the act, but the emotions come from somewhere.

OK. Is the lust that leads to rape the fault of the chick in the short skirt? Still sounds bad, doesn't it?

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If you can ensure that in your promiscious society that no one gets hurt.... go for it.

Excuse me? A type of behaviour should be considered permissable if and only if no-one will ever get hurt, even as an unintended side effect? What the hell are we going to have left?!

Do you want to have an ideagasm?