Free Speach?

[rushmc 18]

While I have to admit I wonder how these kids are being raised (and it is NONE of my business) I tend to feel they have the right. I feel the school is out of line here. Comments? This one tears at me a bit......

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,354864,00.html

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[Lindsey 0]

Freedom isn't meaningful if we're only free to do those things that are tasteful to the powers that be.

I think it's pitiful that it was only after the kids were suspended that the principal realized that the suspensions might be unconstitutional. That's sad.

linz

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[vortexring 0]

It's only a simple case of somebody not thinking through his actions. No big deal really. It's readily apparant the bloke would swim in pig poo or stab his granny in the back if it might enhance his wank career.

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[rushmc 18]

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Freedom isn't meaningful if we're only free to do those things that are tasteful to the powers that be.

I think it's pitiful that it was only after the kids were suspended that the principal realized that the suspensions might be unconstitutional. That's sad.

linz

Knee jerk reactions can result in a terrible bite

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[kallend 1,673]

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Freedom isn't meaningful if we're only free to do those things that are tasteful to the powers that be.

I think it's pitiful that it was only after the kids were suspended that the principal realized that the suspensions might be unconstitutional. That's sad.

linz

Knee jerk reactions can result in a terrible bite

Fascinating mixed metaphor, but what, if anything, does it mean?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rushmc 18]

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Freedom isn't meaningful if we're only free to do those things that are tasteful to the powers that be.

I think it's pitiful that it was only after the kids were suspended that the principal realized that the suspensions might be unconstitutional. That's sad.

linz

Knee jerk reactions can result in a terrible bite

Fascinating mixed metaphor, but what, if anything, does it mean?

I would think after todays posts it would have a clear meaning for you

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[kallend 1,673]

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Freedom isn't meaningful if we're only free to do those things that are tasteful to the powers that be.

I think it's pitiful that it was only after the kids were suspended that the principal realized that the suspensions might be unconstitutional. That's sad.

linz

Knee jerk reactions can result in a terrible bite

Fascinating mixed metaphor, but what, if anything, does it mean?

I would think after todays posts it would have a clear meaning for you

Gibberish is meaningful only in rush-world.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[quade 3]

From the article;

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. . . but he was quickly invited back once his principal learned that rule might be unconstitutional.

Maybe the principal should sit in a history and civic class or two.

What a dolt.

Last line in the story from the KID;

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"I thought it was kind of dumb because I didn't do anything wrong," Dahl said. "It should be the people's choice."

In fact, that's the only way it's meaningful at all.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Royd 0]

Let's just let the inmates run the asylum. If they don't want to do homework, let's go ahead and give them an A. If they don't want to suit up for PE because they are worried someone might see their fat ass, and have a laugh, that's ok.

We really don't want the little pricks to have to experience anything close to reality.

The teacher is the authority in the classroom, and when he or she says stand up, that's exactly what you do. You don't get to sit on your ass and contemplate the deeper meaning of standing up.

[Gawain 0]

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While I have to admit I wonder how these kids are being raised (and it is NONE of my business) I tend to feel they have the right. I feel the school is out of line here. Comments? This one tears at me a bit......

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,354864,00.html

I understand your meaning, but these kids don't necessarily have the same rights as adults. In fact, in many states, minors have no rights until they turn 18.

So, if a school has a policy that would be seen as unconstitutional to an adult, that doesn't mean it's the case with minors.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[quade 3]

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I understand your meaning, but these kids don't necessarily have the same rights as adults.

Really? I wasn't aware that the U.S. Constitution only applied to people over 18. Could you point me to that paragraph?

U.S. Consitution

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In fact, in many states, minors have no rights until they turn 18.

Think you can name one? Because simply sitting out the Pledge would be protected expression and would apply to ALL states.

From Constitutional Topic: Student Rights;

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Second, students in public schools are not stripped of their rights completely. In Board v Barnette (319 US 624 [1943]), for example, the Supreme Court ruled that students could not be forced to salute the flag against their will. In Tinker v Des Moines (393 US 503 [1969]), the Supreme Court ruled that students wearing black arm bands to protest the Vietnam War could not be forced to remove the arm bands by school officials. As written in Tinker, "It can hardly be argued that either students or teachers shed their constitutional rights to freedom of speech or expression at the schoolhouse gate."

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[kallend 1,673]

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Let's just let the inmates run the asylum. If they don't want to do homework, let's go ahead and give them an A. If they don't want to suit up for PE because they are worried someone might see their fat ass, and have a laugh, that's ok.

We really don't want the little pricks to have to experience anything close to reality.

The teacher is the authority in the classroom, and when he or she says stand up, that's exactly what you do. You don't get to sit on your ass and contemplate the deeper meaning of standing up.

It must really piss you off that other people have rights too.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Gawain 0]

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I understand your meaning, but these kids don't necessarily have the same rights as adults.

Really? I wasn't aware that the U.S. Constitution only applied to people over 18. Could you point me to that paragraph?

http://www.constitution.org/powright.htm

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Certain of the above rights are restricted, or "disabled", for minors, but the definition of who is a minor and the extent to which each of these rights are disabled for minors, is limited to the jurisdiction over which each government has general legislative authority, which for the U.S. government, is "federal ground" (see below). Minors are the only class of persons whose rights may be disabled without a need to justify the disablement as arising from the need to resolve a conflict with the rights of others, either through statute or due process. The disablement consists of the assignment of a power to supervise the exercise of the rights under the headings of "liberty" and "property" listed above to a guardian, by default the parents, who acts as agent of the State for the purpose of nurturing the minor. The disability is normally removed by statute providing for removal when a certain age, such as 18, or condition, such as marriage, is attained. The disabilities of minority can also be removed earlier by court order or, if statute allows, extended beyond the usual statutory expiration by court order in cases of incompetence. The right to vote is not included among the disabilities of minority, but is defined separately by law, so that removal of the disabilities of minority does not in itself affect having the right to vote.

Schools are a shared space, on public property. Student attendance is compulsory, and they are subject to search, drug tests, etc. Not unlike an adult going to the airport. Certain rights are given up...that's plain reality.

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From Constitutional Topic: Student Rights;

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Second, students in public schools are not stripped of their rights completely. In Board v Barnette (319 US 624 [1943]), for example, the Supreme Court ruled that students could not be forced to salute the flag against their will. In Tinker v Des Moines (393 US 503 [1969]), the Supreme Court ruled that students wearing black arm bands to protest the Vietnam War could not be forced to remove the arm bands by school officials. As written in Tinker, "It can hardly be argued that either students or teachers shed their constitutional rights to freedom of speech or expression at the schoolhouse gate."

I don't dispute your points here, obviously. I should have clarified that I was not talking about specific freedom of expression.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[jcd11235 0]

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The teacher is the authority in the classroom, and when he or she says stand up, that's exactly what you do. You don't get to sit on your ass and contemplate the deeper meaning of standing up.

I'm not sure what country you live in, but here in the USA, we have freedom of speech and freedom of expression, so if a kid doesn't want to pledge allegiance to the nation's flag, or does want to stand while others do, he was perfectly within his or her right to refrain from doing so. Things may be different in your country, but we enjoy our freedoms here, what's left of them.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[jcd11235 0]

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I should have clarified that I was not talking about specific freedom of expression.

BS. You claimed that in some states minors have no rights. You didn't except any.

Your exact words:

"In fact, in many states, minors have no rights until they turn 18."

You may want to read this when you have some spare time.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[mnealtx 0]

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I should have clarified that I was not talking about specific freedom of expression.

BS. You claimed that in some states minors have no rights. You didn't except any.

Your exact words:

"In fact, in many states, minors have no rights until they turn 18."

You may want to read this when you have some spare time.

And those rights can be curtailed or modified under certain circumstances - hence all the 2nd Amendment threads. Whether it's "right" or not is, as always, up for discussion.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Gawain 0]

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I should have clarified that I was not talking about specific freedom of expression.

BS. You claimed that in some states minors have no rights. You didn't except any.

Your exact words:

"In fact, in many states, minors have no rights until they turn 18."

You may want to read this when you have some spare time.

I've read it. Don't get all saucy. Note that I said "I should have clarified"...so I'm imperfect...and I didn't communicate too well in a sentence. Each state has a constitution as well, and you'll do well to learn that the US Constitution does not address issues of minors' rights. In fact, the US Constitution is limited and specific in scope.

The fact remains that minors do not have the same rights or privileges as adults. In fact, many below the age of twenty-five, thirty or thirty-five are restricted as well (in terms of being eligible to hold national elected office, Congress, President, etc). No right to vote under the age of 18, etc. That's at a federal level.

In plain practice, kids don't have a whole lot of "rights". These are determined by the states. There is nothing really wrong with that.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[jcd11235 0]

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In plain practice, kids don't have a whole lot of "rights". These are determined by the states.

No, there not. States cannot remove rights the Constitution of the United States of America guarantee. Read the second sentence of the first paragraph of the fourteenth amendment.

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I've read it.

Perhaps you should read it again.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[jcd11235 0]

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And those rights can be curtailed or modified under certain circumstances - hence all the 2nd Amendment threads.

The reason there is so much debate over Amendment 2 is because it has yet to be interpreted and is worded in an ambiguous manner.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[lawrocket 3]

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I think it's pitiful that it was only after the kids were suspended that the principal realized that the suspensions might be unconstitutional. That's sad.

linz

I think it's pretty difficult for ANYBODY - especially a layperson in the law - the know these things. That's part of the problem with things.

How do you know what is and is not contitutional? Unless we have a solid understanding of it, it's impossible.

Such is my hatred of the "living breating Constitution" bs. Kallend disagrees, but such a doctrine puts nobody on notice as to what is and is not allowed. We need something that helps us make that determination.

Who knows? The principal could say, "That was from a decision 10 years ago. This is a whole new millenium, for God's sake (noty literally. Figuratively - God is not allowed, or at least it wasn't ten years ago. maybe now. But not then. Screw it. 'God.' should be fine now).

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[quade 3]

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I think it's pretty difficult for ANYBODY - especially a layperson in the law - the know these things.

We're not talking about "anybody". We're talking about a principal of a school who certainly ought to know the basic rules of what is and is not allowed. It's not like he's some joe-six-pack who really doesn't have a vested interest in the enforcement of school rules. He's administering them FFS. That's like saying an umpire does really need to "know" about the ground rule double or a cop doesn't need to "know" about Miranda rights. If you're going to enforce a rule, you OUGHT to know what is and isn't allowed.

Further, this assclown is presumably of an age and position where he certainly ought to have been aware of other relatively recent rulings on relevant and similar topics.

Lastly, he's supposed to be teaching the kids a lesson, not the other way 'round.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[kelpdiver 2]

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The teacher is the authority in the classroom, and when he or she says stand up, that's exactly what you do. You don't get to sit on your ass and contemplate the deeper meaning of standing up.

I'm not sure what country you live in, but here in the USA, we have freedom of speech and freedom of expression, so if a kid doesn't want to pledge allegiance to the nation's flag, or does want to stand while others do, he was perfectly within his or her right to refrain from doing so. Things may be different in your country, but we enjoy our freedoms here, what's left of them.

The child's freedom of expression in school quickly hits a point where it interferes with every other child's right to education. A kid who won't shut up during class will be excused from the class. Rights come with responsibility. The pledge probably lies short of that point.

[Lindsey 0]

A reasonable response might have been to send a note home for the kid's parents and let them hash it out.... There are plenty of options short of suspending a kid from school for refusing to stand for the pledge. They could even make a lesson of it given just a little bit of thought and creativity. Besides the issue of whether it's unconstitutional, the overreaction to a kid's willfulness really bothers me.

Suspension????? How about reserving that for violence and behaviors that are actually harmful? The fact that it doesn't enter a principal's mind that a child might have the right NOT to pledge allegiance to the flag is nauseating enough and highlights this educator's lack of understanding of civics. To overreact like he did is a demonstration of his stupidity.

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[Royd 0]

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The teacher is the authority in the classroom, and when he or she says stand up, that's exactly what you do. You don't get to sit on your ass and contemplate the deeper meaning of standing up.

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I'm not sure what country you live in, but here in the USA, we have freedom of speech and freedom of expression, so if a kid doesn't want to pledge allegiance to the nation's flag, or does want to stand while others do, he was perfectly within his or her right to refrain from doing so. Things may be different in your country, but we enjoy our freedoms here, what's left of them.

So if there's a fire drill, you have no problem with half of the kids doing as they please, instead of lining up outside so a proper rollcall can be taken?

[thirdworld19 0]

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While I have to admit I wonder how these kids are being raised (and it is NONE of my business) I tend to feel they have the right. I feel the school is out of line here. Comments? This one tears at me a bit......

I agree - the principal went too far. There are so many other ways to handle this.

However, is it possible that the kid had other disciplinary problems and this was just the last straw?