Question for LDS people...

[Nightingale 0]

In all this confusion about LDS/FLDS that's been in the news, I was researching both groups, and I have managed to completely and totally confuse myself.

The questions:
The LDS religion is based on the words and revelations of Joseph Smith, the first prophet, right? Section 132 of Doctrines and Covenants seems to say that the way to heaven/godhood/etc is through polygamy. So what I'm trying to figure out is how the modern LDS church can both follow the revelations of Joseph Smith and not be polygamous at the same time. I know there was something about a manifesto, so can later prophets contradict Joseph Smith?

[TomAiello 25]

After Mountain Meadows and the subsequent US invasion of Utah, the prophet at the time (I can't recall who it was) had a revelation that, although celestial marriage (polygamy) was the proper organization for human affairs, the modern world wasn't yet "ready" for it, and that it would have to be held off until the world was ready to accept god's will.

Basically, congress bludgeoned the LDS church into abandoning one of their central tenets (polygamy) by threatening to confiscate all LDS assets (militarily, if necessary). The LDS leadership responded by officially reversing doctrinal course, while giving themselves a theological out (the world isn't ready for true Godliness yet), and basically going underground (LDS leaders continued to be fairly open in their polygamy for another 20 or 30 years, actually). Over time, this caused polygamy to fall out of the LDS mainstream (and spawned the fundamentalist polygamist sects, who still worked from the original tenets).

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[rynodigsmusic 0]

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In all this confusion about LDS/FLDS that's been in the news, I was researching both groups, and I have managed to completely and totally confuse myself.

The questions:
The LDS religion is based on the words and revelations of Joseph Smith, the first prophet, right? Section 132 of Doctrines and Covenants seems to say that the way to heaven/godhood/etc is through polygamy. So what I'm trying to figure out is how the modern LDS church can both follow the revelations of Joseph Smith and not be polygamous at the same time. I know there was something about a manifesto, so can later prophets contradict Joseph Smith?

The problem I have with Joeseph smith is he introduces a religion based on Christianity, but the Christian faith needs no more and no less than the Gospel.

Truth tells us that the character of the "modern day prophets) should be full of love, full of humbleness, full of grace, full of TRUTH, full of mercy, kindness, gentleness ect...If someone in this day can stand in front of God and say that he is a prophet, I have a hard time believing that the humbleness that is born within him would allow that. What I mean is that a true servant of Christ, if he is follwing the spirit, will not say that he is a prophet. We are nothing without grace, be careful who you believe to be from God and keep your guard up to keep from falling into the mighty and powerful hand of the false prophet. Grace is given in truth, if a guide you meet is not truthful with you in all things, keep your guard up and be careful of the strength in his words. Just as life flows from the lips so also does death. If love is not clearly present, be very careful.

Personally, if it is the spirit you live by, I would stay away from Joeseph Smith. Revelations curses anyone who adds to the New testament. We do not need anything more than truth and grace. I hope this is clear and not too convicting, so sorry. Its just that I am very passionate about exposing false prophets and keeping brothers and sisters from straying from truth. They use the power of Gods word to decieve, remember that. That is some serious power. Do you remember when Jesus was tested in the desert that satan himself used Gods word against Jesus? (of course he didnt prevail) A guide should be as humble with you as he is with God, that shows true fear and holds him accountable for what he says. True fear will find love my sister. Grace and peace,

"We didn't start the fire"

[kelpdiver 2]

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Personally, if it is the spirit you live by, I would stay away from Joeseph Smith. Revelations curses anyone who adds to the New testament. We do not need anything more than truth and grace.

So how exactly is Joseph Smith different from Martin Luther or any of the other Protestant leaders over the past 5 centuries?

[rynodigsmusic 0]

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Personally, if it is the spirit you live by, I would stay away from Joeseph Smith. Revelations curses anyone who adds to the New testament. We do not need anything more than truth and grace.

So how exactly is Joseph Smith different from Martin Luther or any of the other Protestant leaders over the past 5 centuries?

I am only saying to keep your guard up against those claiming to be from God (this is all throughout the New Testament). Truth will expose them all in the end, but not before they finish their purpose here, which is to decieve others who are desiring Christ by mis-leading them and making them think that they themselves are the embodiment of the word. It is with truth that we love God and it is with truth that we love one another. If I am guilty of something and condemn you for being guilty of something that is not living by the truth.

Jesus himself said it is better not to marry, but he did not say do not. It is clear that the number of wives you have, or do not have, has nothing to do with the spirit. It would be like someone saying that circumcision, or washing the hands, or some other religious tradition should be re-instated into the conscience becasue they heard God, say that they should. It goes against the spirit of grace, by adding to the conscience blemishes that were erased by the blood of Jesus. This is how false prophets operate. Joseph Smith did just this and therefore found control over the minds and hearts of so many who do not even really get the chance to live free of these opressed traditions that have nothing to do with the spirit.

When Jesus came, he embodied the Entire word of God, traditions and all, and he said, speak the truth, love God, and love one another. If truth is not revealed amongst those who are made to guide us, then what are we to think? It is not hard at all for someone to use Jesus' name for power. But imagine, a minister who tells you he is cleaner than he really is. All I am saying is speak the truth. James said above all let your yes be yes and your no be no, or you will be condemned. There are hypocrites leading in some of our churches, they dont know they are hypocrites, which makes them even more dangerous. They make it seem as if they are the ones you should follow....im just saying keep your guard up. If you have the spirit in you, then you have a spirit of discernment that easily warns you about someone especailly the more sensative you become.

There is a prophetic voice, and there are those who say they are prophets. The voice comes from Jesus and it is full of grace and truth, not all prophets come from Jesus. MLK has made my cry in many of his speeches, I just love him, but he never claimed to be a prophet and his fruit was completely recognizable as that of Jesus'. And MLK never tried to start another religion.

You dont know me, so I have no credibilty among you, but try today to speak your deepest darkest secrets to God, see how hard it is, but how much freedom his grace gives you. I get a feeling of innocence from some of the leaders in the church, and that is not from the spirit of truth. We are not innocent, we are guilty, dark, evil. Gods grace, his grace is the only reason we can talk to him with confidence. The fruit of those who follow Jesus and who teach his ways should be obvious to any believer, but truth, grace, and humbleness are the greatest. Jesus washed the disciples' feet. God washed the feet of man...are you worthy of that? I know im not, but it is that truth that feeds us his grace.

What can someone tell you that goes beyond that of truth and grace? This is a question. Sorry about the length

"We didn't start the fire"

[rynodigsmusic 0]

The LDS religion is based on the words and revelations of Joseph Smith, the first prophet, right? Section 132 of Doctrines and Covenants seems to say that the way to heaven/godhood/etc is through polygamy.

Im really sorry, but will you please show me this in the Gospel or even the new testament? The only thing I have found in regards to Polygamy is when Paul is describing what a bishop in the church should be like, and he clearly says that they should have only one wife. If this is Paul, an apostle of Jesus saying that a leader in the church should have only one wife, then what does that tell us about the importance of Polygamy? Surely even a self proclaimed prophet would fall under "a leader in the church".

When is the mormon church going to respond to this anyway? And again, Jesus says that a man leaves his family and unites with his wife and they become one flesh, and the Pharisees (who were mostly traditional and not spiritual) said that Moses gave us divorce....Jesus then said, "Moses allowed you to divorce because your hearts were cold, but it was not this way in the beginning"

The mormon church says that they follow the Bible and the book of Mormon, but truth cuts us right down through the center of our very being. Hebrews says that it divides the soul and spirit and judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

Sister, please just stay with the gospel. Come to God in all truth, confess your sins in all truth, humble yourself before the invisible God, believe that Jesus took your sins away with his own blood and that God raised Jesus from the dead, pray for the Holy Spirit and you will find the grace you need to persevere to holiness. There is no other way to becoming the righteousness of God.

Then learn to understand the power of FAITH, HOPE, and LOVE. Feel free anytime to ask more questions. I am not familiar with LDS but I follow Jesus with all my heart and I can help you with what the Word says when you like. Realize that I get more encouragement out of encouraging others, so that seems to be my joy. Do not get caught up in traditions, it is tradition that murdered Jesus. As men followed traditons and stopped following the spirit of goodness.

I challenge any Preacher of the LDS right now to show us otherwise in the real word of God that Jesus died for. When did salvation come through anything but faith in grace???? This is absolutely fundamental to the growth of the spirit.

I am sorry about the passionate response.

"We didn't start the fire"

[rynodigsmusic 0]

Sorry to come in and drop off, but I wont be able to respond for a couple of days. The spirit says that if one aint good enough sis, then two definitely wont be better! I know polygamy sounds pretty rad, Ill take 12 please, but spiritualy it challenges the desire for true content... Grace and peace

"We didn't start the fire"

[quade 3]

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ISo what I'm trying to figure out is how the modern LDS church can both follow the revelations of Joseph Smith and not be polygamous at the same time.

I'm sure it is something like most Christians not putting people to death that work on the sabbath or selling their daughters into slavery according to ancient "laws" as outlined in the old testament.

One of my very favorite scenes in any TV show of all time was one in a West Wing episode that talked about how times have changed from "biblical" times. You can see it here.

Try not to be too judgmental about the minutiae of other people's religious beliefs. At their core, I'm certain you can find something fairly unbelievable in all of them.

I personally think the state should be ashamed of themselves for falling for this hoax phone call and causing all this to happen to people that just wanted to be left alone. It's complete bullshit what has happened to them. The state should immediately reunite the families, give them a big bag of money for their trouble and stfu.

Sure, go after FLDS, but leave all the televangelists ripping off little old ladies. Bullshit.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Butters 0]

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... polygamy sounds pretty rad ...

When I read this I picture an old person trying to relate to children ... Totally rad!

PS: Polygamy sounds more like hell than heaven to me.

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[thirdworld19 0]

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Sorry to come in and drop off, but I wont be able to respond for a couple of days. The spirit says that if one aint good enough sis, then two definitely wont be better! I know polygamy sounds pretty rad, Ill take 12 please, but spiritualy it challenges the desire for true content... Grace and peace

Just curious, as far as I know, the Bible does not outlaw polygamy. And looking at the old testament, there were several men who had more than one wife. Do you have a passage that says that polygamy is not allowed?

[Nightingale 0]

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The LDS religion is based on the words and revelations of Joseph Smith, the first prophet, right? Section 132 of Doctrines and Covenants seems to say that the way to heaven/godhood/etc is through polygamy.

Sister, please just stay with the gospel. Come to God in all truth, confess your sins in all truth, humble yourself before the invisible God, believe that Jesus took your sins away with his own blood and that God raised Jesus from the dead, pray for the Holy Spirit and you will find the grace you need to persevere to holiness. There is no other way to becoming the righteousness of God.
...
I am sorry about the passionate response.

Um...thanks for your input, I guess, but you didn't address the question I asked. Can we keep this thread on topic? I'm not LDS, I'm just trying to understand someone else's perspective, so I'm looking for input from people who are LDS. In the meantime, you might enjoy these threads about Christianity:

"I would like to tell you a bit more about God"
Christian Skydivers

[Nightingale 0]

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ISo what I'm trying to figure out is how the modern LDS church can both follow the revelations of Joseph Smith and not be polygamous at the same time.

I'm sure it is something like most Christians not putting people to death that work on the sabbath or selling their daughters into slavery according to ancient "laws" as outlined in the old testament.

I don't really think that's it, because in Biblical times, putting people to death or selling daughters was not considered part of the way to salvation and could therefore change with the times without altering the core beliefs, but in the time of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, polygamy was something necessary to reach certain levels of the LDS idea of heaven.

[Nightingale 0]

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After Mountain Meadows and the subsequent US invasion of Utah, the prophet at the time (I can't recall who it was) had a revelation that, although celestial marriage (polygamy) was the proper organization for human affairs, the modern world wasn't yet "ready" for it, and that it would have to be held off until the world was ready to accept god's will.

Basically, congress bludgeoned the LDS church into abandoning one of their central tenets (polygamy) by threatening to confiscate all LDS assets (militarily, if necessary). The LDS leadership responded by officially reversing doctrinal course, while giving themselves a theological out (the world isn't ready for true Godliness yet), and basically going underground (LDS leaders continued to be fairly open in their polygamy for another 20 or 30 years, actually). Over time, this caused polygamy to fall out of the LDS mainstream (and spawned the fundamentalist polygamist sects, who still worked from the original tenets).

Thank you, Tom!

So if celestial marriage is the proper way of things and leads to the highest levels of salvation, are the people down here that are not practicing it just screwed until society is ready to accept polygamy, or was there a work around that allowed LDS not practicing polygamy to reach the higher levels of heaven?

[TomAiello 25]

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So if celestial marriage is the proper way of things and leads to the highest levels of salvation, are the people down here that are not practicing it just screwed until society is ready to accept polygamy, or was there a work around that allowed LDS not practicing polygamy to reach the higher levels of heaven?

I believe that the new (non-polygamy) revelation basically makes a loophole so that they can achieve the highest levels of heaven without multiple wives.

If I understand it correctly, the newer prophets can have revelations that re-interpret things, but they can't directly "overturn" (I'm sure that's not the correct terminology) previous revelations.

In this case, the newer revelation says that since the world isn't ready for plural marriage, otherwise devout Mormons can still make it to the top ranks of heaven, because they've essentially "done their best" to comply with the heavenly mandate, within the worldly restrictions placed on them by (other) men.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[AWL71 0]

Polygamy — or more correctly polygyny, the marriage of more than one woman to the same man — was an important part of the teachings of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints for a half-century. The practice began during the lifetime of Joseph Smith but became publicly and widely known during the time of Brigham Young. Today, the practice of polygamy is strictly prohibited in the Church, as it has been for over 100 years.

In 1831, Church founder Joseph Smith made a prayerful inquiry about the ancient Old Testament practice of plural marriage. This resulted in the divine instruction to reinstitute the practice as a religious principle.

Latter-day Saint converts in the 19th century had been raised in traditional, monogamous homes and struggled with the idea of a man having more than one wife. It was as foreign to them as it would be to most families today in the western world. Even Brigham Young, who was later to have many wives and children, confessed to his initial dread of the principle of plural marriage.

Subsequently, in 1890, President Wilford Woodruff, fourth president of the Church, received what Latter-day Saints believe to be a revelation in which God withdrew the command to practice plural marriage. He issued what has come to be known as the "Manifesto," a written declaration to Church members and the public at large that stopped the practice of plural marriage.

Later, describing the reasons for the Manifesto, President Woodruff told Church members, "The Lord showed me by vision and revelation exactly what would take place if we did not stop this practice. If we had not stopped it, you would have had no use for ... any of the men in this temple ... for all (temple sacraments) would be stopped throughout the land. ... Confusion would reign ... and many men would be made prisoners. This trouble would have come upon the whole Church, and we should have been compelled to stop the practice."

Today Church members honor and respect the sacrifices made by those who practiced polygamy in the early days of the Church. However, the practice is outlawed in the Church, and no person can practice plural marriage and remain a member.
The standard doctrine of the Church is monogamy, as it always has been, as indicated in the Book of Mormon (Jacob chapter 2): “Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none. … For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.”
In other words, the standard of the Lord’s people is monogamy unless the Lord reveals otherwise. Latter-day Saints believe the season the Church practiced polygamy was one of these exceptions.

Polygamous groups and individuals in and around Utah often cause confusion for casual observers and for visiting news media. The polygamists and polygamist organizations in parts of the western United States and Canada have no affiliation whatsoever with The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, despite the fact that the term "Mormon" — widely understood to be a nickname for Latter-day Saints — is sometimes misleadingly applied to them.
President Gordon B. Hinckley stated the following about polygamy in the Church's October 1998 general conference:
“I wish to state categorically that this Church has nothing whatever to do with those practicing polygamy. They are not members of this Church. Most of them have never been members. They are in violation of the civil law. They know they are in violation of the law. They are subject to its penalties. The Church, of course, has no jurisdiction whatever in this matter.

"If any of our members are found to be practicing plural marriage, they are excommunicated, the most serious penalty the Church can impose. Not only are those so involved in direct violation of the civil law, they are in violation of thelaw of this Church. An article of our faith is binding upon us. It states, 'We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law' (Articles of Faith 1:12).”

The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help.

[Nightingale 0]

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So if celestial marriage is the proper way of things and leads to the highest levels of salvation, are the people down here that are not practicing it just screwed until society is ready to accept polygamy, or was there a work around that allowed LDS not practicing polygamy to reach the higher levels of heaven?

I believe that the new (non-polygamy) revelation basically makes a loophole so that they can achieve the highest levels of heaven without multiple wives.

If I understand it correctly, the newer prophets can have revelations that re-interpret things, but they can't directly "overturn" (I'm sure that's not the correct terminology) previous revelations.

In this case, the newer revelation says that since the world isn't ready for plural marriage, otherwise devout Mormons can still make it to the top ranks of heaven, because they've essentially "done their best" to comply with the heavenly mandate, within the worldly restrictions placed on them by (other) men.

Thank you! That makes sense!

[Nightingale 0]

Thank you for the historical perspective!

[riddler 0]

I once had a co-worker that was LDS - I don't know if he wore the underwear, I never asked. His interpretation of the polygamy thing was that back in "the day" when Mormons were running to the west to escape persecution, the men were being killed for their beliefs, and they were trying to repopulate, so the original tenants allowed for polygamy.

I have no idea if that's true or not. I'm trying to summarize someone's opinion based on my memory from several years ago. I don't know if he was a level 42 cleric or what, so this is probably far from the official position of the church.

Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

[Nightingale 0]

I heard something similar from an LDS member.

[DSE 3]

One thing that has not been mentioned, is that the practice of polygamy is only a matter of secular law. Polygamy is promised in the next life for those that have met the requirements for entering the Celestial Kingdom, and it is believed by some conspiracists that the LDS church still performs celestial marriages on earth for a man to be married to multiple women in heaven, although they may not practice plural marriage here on this earth.
What is interesting, and worthy of debate, IMO, is that fundamental Mormons and mainstream Mormons believe in the exact same beginnings of the LDS faith. They follow the exact same scriptures and gospel tenets. Both groups practice the same Freemason rites in the temples. Both have the Book of Mormon and Bible. Both do not allow women to hold the priesthood (although in early times of the church, women *did* hold the priesthood powers). However, when the split occured due to the Edmonds-Tucker Act (which eventually spurred the LDS church to abandon polygamy so that Utah and Idaho could become states. In fact, the US government had seized over a million $$ of Mormon-owned assets that would not be returned until Mormons renounced the practice. But I've taken a side road....

How is it that the mainstream Mormons accept that the word of God is dynamic, and may change with the times while the fundamentalists accept that God's word is infallible and forever, yet mainstream Mormonism discounts the fundamentals as being crazy, off-base, etc. At the same time, the State of Utah has made it very, very clear that they don't want "the quiet polygs" to be prosecuted. And very, very rarely are they prosecuted. Only big-mouth's like Tom Green, who went on Larry King to brag about his polygamy, have been prosecuted. Why?
Why does the LDS-owned Legislature, the former AG was owned by the LDS faith and was instructed to not go after them. The current AG was told to stay away from the Texas experience.

Why are non-FLDS polygs allowed to attend mainstream Mormon sacrament, Sunday school, and priesthood meetings? Why, if they detest and disavow fundamentalists, does the LDS faith wish to "protect" the practice?

[DSE 3]

Historically,I don't think this is accurate. However, it's possible that this story was created to justify the practice.
Excerpted from Jessica Longaker's Religious Studies textbook:

On July 12, 1843, Joseph Smith declared that God had given him a new revelation concerning marriage and he revealed it to his brother and other high-ranking male church members. This revelation from God, at one point, specifically instructed "mine handmaid Emma Smith, Joseph's wife" to accept this doctrine and allow Joseph to have as many wives as he liked, as long as they were all "virtuous and pure" (Snowden 191). Emma Smith was a very strong-willed woman, and Joseph was so frightened of her wrath that he sent his brother Hyrum to inform her of God's plan. Emma was understandably scornful, and threw Hyrum out of her house (Wallace 55). Later, she managed to obtain a written copy of the revelation, and while in Joseph's presence, tossed it directly into the fireplace. However, the damage had already been done. Joseph is said to have been married to twenty-seven wives at the time of his death (Snowden 282). Emma left the church after his death and later denied that her husband had ever practiced polygamy (Wallace 65).

The LDS doctrine believes Christ was also a polygamist, married to Mary Magdeline, Martha, and Mary. Read McConkie "Mormon Doctrine."

[Shotgun 1]

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Sure, go after FLDS, but leave all the televangelists ripping off little old ladies. Bullshit.

Do you honestly not see any difference in what is (allegedly) going on with the FLDS and little old ladies choosing to send money to televangelists?

[Nightingale 0]

Tom Green was legally married to multiple women, IIRC. The FLDS and other polygamous communities tend to have one legal marriage, and the rest are spiritual marriages and not legal marriages.

[DSE 3]

Tom Green was not legally married to five women.
One cannot be married (legally) to more than one partner at a time. Otherwise, it's "bigamy," right? Tom Green was charged with four counts of bigamy, one charge of failure to pay support, and rape of one of his wives. His scheme was that first wife divorces him so that she collects welfare while he marries second wife, and so on. However, all five co-habitate, and eventually, the state proved out that he wasn't legally divorced from first and subsequent wives, and wasn't legally married to later wives, so he has to repay the state for welfare monies the wives received.
Either way, he was a fundamentalist only in name, and attended/attends regular Mormon services even in post-prison times.

There are polygs in my town as well. Nothing is "spiritual-only" about their marriages.
Perhaps we're passing in semantics. ....FLDS can get one marriage license like everyone else. They are married in their temple. Next wife, no state-issued marriage license, but married by the same officiant in the same temple with the same ceremony. In the Mormon sense, a "spiritual" marriage only applies in the next life. Perhaps God sent the 400+ "Saturday's Warriors" down in baskets, as the women didn't have intercourse in their "spiritual marriages?"

[Nightingale 0]

Looks like where Mr. Green erred is legally marrying and divorcing while still cohabitating. In some states, cohabitation/sex after filing for divorce voids the divorce. So, Mr. Green was married in the eyes of the state to more than one women.

If someone marries in a religious ceremony only, without license or state paperwork, they are not married in the eyes of the government, and no crime has been committed. (common law marriage laws get weird here, but a lot of states have abolished common law marriage, so it isn't as much of an issue). In the eyes of the state, if Mr. Green had just married the first one legally, and had a church marriage only with the other four, in the eyes of the state, he'd have been married to one woman and happened to have four others in his house.