Am I an atheist?

[rynodigsmusic 0]

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My problem is that I just don't get it. People are in the main, pretty smart but some seem to want to believe in myths & legends and the improbable.

Thats sort of funny coming from a skydiver! Its not whats probable that makes someone believe, it is whats possible, and what is possible lies in the realm of belief. Is it possible that all mankind can live amongst each other in peaceful harmony? Is it possible that we can truly love each other? Is it possible that God is real, that there is life after death? Anyones imagination if it is open will not dismiss possiblity. Possiblity for some, leads to faith, faith leads to hope, hope that is sure finds joy.

Think about the Wright bros. "Is it even possible that we can fly?" Possibility. "We will build a machine". Faith "I sure hope this thing flies" Hope. "It Flew!" Joy. Had the Wright bros, or anyone for that matter (who had faith that they were going to do what others thought was impossible) had given up hope, they never would have found the JJoy they dreamed of from the very beginning.

What about skydiving? "Is it possible that I could actually do this?" "Im gonna do it". "I hope everything goes great" "that was awsome!"

In both scenarios, people showed the essence of eternal salvation. The difference is you can do those things, (dream of possiblilitys) as well as keep the hope that was so powerful if you can find faith in Jesus.

The Gospel reveals to us that we are cleary understood. We were designed to prosper, we have great minds that can believe in things not even seen. I personally dont think that was a design flaw. I dont see animals flying planes or writing emails! The point is we have a great imagination, some absolutely brilliant, but without Faith, Hope, and Love, we really dont have anything. The salvation offered in the Gospel gives us these things on an eternal level. We find faith in God because he reveals himself to us, we find hope that is sure because of the genuine faith, our sure hope lets us live with Joy, in all circumstances, because we know that Jesus was resurrected and asceded into Heaven and that we will be with him for eternity.

How you ask? Just as your faith grew into making your first jump, our faith grows in our daily walk with God. For me, I have seen life, I have felt loved in measures I could only hope for before, I feel fulfilled daily, my desires for the things that kept me bound are almost non-existant, I see nature in a new light, I have heard God listening, I feel his presence daily, I am inspired with secrets of his heart, revealtions of wisdom that I do not deserve, I have dreams that I can actually fly in, not just a little, but seriously fly (it takes faith to fly), I have seen it transform others lives in ways that are indescribable.

I think I could go on an on, but again, either you heard, or you didnt. But please dont lose your possibility because you only look for things that are probable.

"We didn't start the fire"

[maadmax 0]

I have viewed that psychological phenomenon myself, and find the degree of blind faith people put into things, amazing. And yes, I can feel all of those atheistic fingers pointing at me. But all I can tell you is the dynamic and life changing power of the Christian Way of Life and the Word of God set forth in the Bible speaks for itself to those of us who have heard His calling. It is not a blind faith, it is a rush of power, purpose and destiny. The proof of a faith is in what it produces, and can be verified by repeatable results in the lives of others. Not by data printouts from some lab experiment

In plain language, you don't have anything in support of your claims .***

You can use fancy language, I don't care. My life and the benefits I have enjoyed from my relationship with God is more than enough evidence for me. Sorry about it not meeting your requirements.

________________________________________

[kallend 1,648]

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I have viewed that psychological phenomenon myself, and find the degree of blind faith people put into things, amazing. And yes, I can feel all of those atheistic fingers pointing at me. But all I can tell you is the dynamic and life changing power of the Christian Way of Life and the Word of God set forth in the Bible speaks for itself to those of us who have heard His calling. It is not a blind faith, it is a rush of power, purpose and destiny. The proof of a faith is in what it produces, and can be verified by repeatable results in the lives of others. Not by data printouts from some lab experiment

In plain language, you don't have anything in support of your claims .***

You can use fancy language, I don't care. My life and the benefits I have enjoyed from my relationship with God is more than enough evidence for me. Sorry about it not meeting your requirements.

________________________________________

You don't have to be sorry. You can believe whatever fairy tales you like; that's your prerogative. Just don't try to convince me that your omnipotent invisible friends are real when you have not one shred of objective evidence to support your claim.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rynodigsmusic 0]

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Hi Max,
I'm going to jump in here, and I'm sure we'll get a chance to talk about this in person sometime. I know enough people who I hold as intelligent, rational, and well-educated, some personally (yourself, several faculty members here at UGA) and some through this forum (Nerdgirl and even Bill von unless I am mistaken) who hold some form of religious belief (not necessarily Christian), that I cannot completely dismiss the "God hypothesis". Still, despite the best efforts of my parents, I personally find that the idea of a "God" that controls all and even "marks the fall of a sparrow" is completely unbelievable. For me, the reasons for that lack of belief go beyond the total lack of empirical evidence, although that lack would be a serious problem in itself. Some (not all) of my issues include:
1) I believe in the objective (i.e. real) existance of a world that operates according to laws of physics (chemistry and biology following as emergent properties from physics), and 2) I believe that it is possible, at least in principle, for us humans to understand those laws. Indeed, for me understanding (at least on some level) how the world works, how all life and indeed all matter/energy are interconnected through shared history, is an important part of my "spirituality". (As an aside, I recommend Dawkin's "The Ancestor's Tale" in this regard). It seems to me that belief in an interventionist God (i.e. Royd's God that pushes babies out of windows, many to be dashed on the ground and a chosen few to be miraculously saved by conveniently placed postal workers) is the antithesis of my beliefs. If there is a God (I'm capitolizing as a sign of respect for your beliefs by the way) that intervenes daily in the physical world, posing "tests" here and answering prayers (for miraculous recovery from disease, for example) there, all without leaving any trace that could be detected by even the most determined experiment, then it seems to me the world is not objectively real. That is, it exists only as a materialization of the whims of "God". Maybe that immunosupressive protein I just characterized didn't exist last week, maybe "God" just created it to "test" me and before that he just "willed" mosquitoes to be good disease vectors. I don't believe that (and I'm sure you don't either), but once you agree that God can do anything and no-one could detect His meddling then where does it stop? Maybe there is an issue with me being a scientist, most people are only concerned that the world works in a consistant way (so that actions have predictible consequences) and not so much with why things work the way that they do.
While we're on the issue of a God that directly intervenes in the world to pose tests and answer prayers, why would such a God permit so much suffering to exist? Aside from the question of human-caused suffering and "free will" (which I hope exists, even though that is an interesting problem in its own right), there is a lot of suffering caused by natural events (tsunamis, mosquitoes, etc). If God created the world, He created it with these things in it to plague innocent people. If I had the power to order the universe according to my will, you can be sure I'd pay some attention to those things and maybe less to sporting events (where every player seems to want to credit God with scoring that touchdown). Of course I am anthropomorphising God, but what could be more anthropomorphic than the Old Testament God who turns people into pillars of salt for looking over their shoulder, or drowns the whole planet (almost) rather than just appearing in the sky one day and saying so that everybody could hear and see, "Look people, I'm real, I'm here and I see what you're up to, and you'd better shape up!". We're onto the Christian concept of God now, but the idea of an all-powerful but petulant entity who gets "lonely" one day and decides to create humans so they can "worship him", and then goes on to play a perpetual game of hide-and-seek (as per the theology I was taught in Sunday School) is about as anthropomorphic as it gets. Man creating God in his own image, as it were. It's much more parsimonious to believe that tsunamis and earthquakes happen as a result of plate tectonics, or parasites exist because of straightforward evolutionary processes, than to believe that it's all part of some cryptic "plan" according to the "will of God", which we will never understand because it is "hidden from mere human minds" (again with the Sunday School theology). "No laws of Nature were broken in the making of this disaster", so to speak.
Of course, there are those who avoid these questions by postulating a knob-twiddler God, one who started the "Big Bang", set Planck's constant so electrons and protons could get together and form atoms, and let things go on their own from there, maybe with a little nudge here or there to move things along. (Dinosaurs keeping the mammals down? This little asteroid will take care of that!) I don't think that kind of God is what most people have in mind when they think of a divine presence in the Universe. Anyway, that is a minimalist God-of-the-gaps that will sublimate away as science fills in more of the holes in our understanding.
Well there's more but this has turned into a thesis so I'll cut it off here. There is no anger there, although if I did believe there was a God who could prevent disease or suffering but was too focused on high-school football, then I would be angry. Max, you asked what leads one to question or reject the idea of God. I offer this with all due respect (really), and I'm curious what you will respond.
Don

Wow! You must trust me when I say I thought just the same way, many of the same questions. Im only speaking of myself, but I found that Love was stronger than even disbelief. Please try to understand that the answer in Faith is not found where you are looking. Even if all the answers to why were filled in by science, you still would never find faith.

A serious question for you. If God came down, performed all sorts of miracles, healed everyone, gave you all the answers you seek, did some more miracles, but said, Ok, Im going back now, would you believe it was God and not doubt? Or even if a huge miraculous voice thundered from the sky so that everyone could hear, would you belive then? Wouldnt most of the faithless still question what they heard, until eventually "the voice" is a new thread 40 years later in a forum of skydivers?

And who am I to tell you, you cant do something, or who am I to ask why you want to do something, its really none of my business, and I dont have the authority or control over you right? Likewise then, who are we to tell God he cant do something, or expect immediate answers from him? Does he really have to reveal himself to us?

Do we really have the right to be angry at whatever gave us life? Wasnt life given to all of us? Trust me, I believe your frustration toward God can be justified in us, but the question is what right do we have? I understand if you cant get passed that, but I wanted to make sure that you knew that I had the same thoughts. Ultimately, it is just our lack of faith, not whether or not we think we have the right to be angry with the way God works. I really dont think you wake up every morning and cuss God for the suffering in the world, but it makes a convenient argument when convincing ourselves he isnt real.

I find that others who are enduring suffering beyond my scope of imagination, brings more gratitude for the good things in my own life. Blaming God is a step to learning how to be blameless, to really finding him, being mad, being honest with your feelings opens the line of dialogue. Doesnt nature show us that God is a caring God, a gentle God? He is caring, gentle, and full of love, but still God. He gives us day after day of beauty and gentleness, of excitement and grace, yet when the storm comes, hes the first one blamed. Sometimes the greatest gifts in our lives are those that are given in the wake of disater.

I respect all of your questions and I respect your sincerity deeply, I only hope we can talk about this in person sometime. I think it is obvious that conversations between those with faith, and those without will always go like this, we are in two different worlds

"We didn't start the fire"

[shropshire 0]

You are so wrong about the flying machine thing. They more likely believed in their engineering skills and calculations not faith.

(a) They weren't the first to fly. Gliders had been flying for years. They had been developed over many years of experimentation and design.
(b) Same with Parachuting

I don't think that science has anything to do with Enternal Salvation - I don't even understand how you came to that conclusion.

The Gospels reveal nothing clearly and we most likely are not designed, we evolved.

Can water be turned into wine - Of couse not unless when combined with fruits, yeast and the fermentation process.

Can people walk on water - Of course not unless they have with water skiis or the like.

Can people be raised from the dead - no of course not unless there weren't actually dead.

Why would the Bible talk in ridles?
Why wouldn't an all powerful god make himself know to the Whole world not just a sandy strip of land at the far end of the Med'?
Why would he change from a fire and brimstone god into a love lambsie type god between chapters?
Why would he build knowledge of himeself into out DNA?
Why be so shy?
If there is only one god, why would he let us believe in others and the fight each other to the death?
Why?




Remember : Man is man made.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[kallend 1,648]

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Why would he change from a fire and brimstone god into a love lambsie type god between chapters?

Hey, if my ex-wife could do it, so could an omnipotent god.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[shropshire 0]

The god change appears to be a one time thing ... not cyclic.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[Royd 0]

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It's much more parsimonious to believe that tsunamis and earthquakes happen as a result of plate tectonics, or parasites exist because of straightforward evolutionary processes, than to believe that it's all part of some cryptic "plan" according to the "will of God", which we will never understand because it is "hidden from mere human minds" (again with the Sunday School theology). "No laws of Nature were broken in the making of this disaster", so to speak

How ironic that we, as humans, the weakest beings, pound for pound, of all creation, seem to have a pretty big god complex. We've come to understand something of the movement of nature, by our superior reasoning, but that's not enough. Somehow, we really think, call it hope,faith, whatever, that we can stop or reverse the actions of nature. How egomaniacal of us.
Let's look at the space program. In the end, does it really matter that we have a close up look at the surface of Jupiter, with its storms large enough to consume the Earth? Nice pictures, and curiousity quelled, but really, it's a huge waste of time and money, because at the end of the day, it means squat.
I have a question for you. Are your days absolutely numbered?

[jcd11235 0]

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Can people walk on water - Of course not unless they have with water skiis or the like.

I've walked on water many times, usually when it is really freakin' cold outside.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[shropshire 0]

Good point

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[rynodigsmusic 0]

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You are so wrong about the flying machine thing. They more likely believed in their engineering skills and calculations not faith.


(a) They weren't the first to fly. Gliders had been flying for years. They had been developed over many years of experimentation and design.
(b) Same with Parachuting


I don't think that science has anything to do with Enternal Salvation - I don't even understand how you came to that conclusion.


The Gospels reveal nothing clearly and we most likely are not designed, we evolved.


Can water be turned into wine - Of couse not unless when combined with fruits, yeast and the fermentation process.

Can people walk on water - Of course not unless they have with water skiis or the like.

Can people be raised from the dead - no of course not unless there weren't actually dead.


Why would the Bible talk in ridles?
Why wouldn't an all powerful god make himself know to the Whole world not just a sandy strip of land at the far end of the Med'?
Why would he change from a fire and brimstone god into a love lambsie type god between chapters?
Why would he build knowledge of himeself into out DNA?
Why be so shy?
If there is only one god, why would he let us believe in others and the fight each other to the death?
Why?
Contrary to popular belief God learned from us. It is hard to imagine just how powerful a man really was made to be. I heard it said in one of these posts that we are the "weakest". I strongly disagree with that, clearly, we are the dominating species, it is our minds that make us dominant. Jesus likened us all to Gods in the Gospel. It is not too far off to believe that the God of all things made is clearing evil man from good man so that in what he learned about us, we might live eternally as an entirely new creation, not born of man, but born of Gods very spirit. But again, this is going to sound radically foolish to those who dont believe.




Remember : Man is man made.

"We didn't start the fire"

[rynodigsmusic 0]

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Can people walk on water - Of course not unless they have with water skiis or the like.

I've walked on water many times, usually when it is really freakin' cold outside.

So you all know, the miracles were only done so that we would know the message was from God. The Gospel is about the message, not the miracles. It was the message that got him crucified, not the miracles.

So Jesus said, "When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am the one I claim to be and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me."

"We didn't start the fire"

[shropshire 0]

Thanks a lot for taking the time to answer my post so comprehensively - I appreciate that.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[GeorgiaDon 340]

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Please try to understand that the answer in Faith is not found where you are looking.

Here is one root of our differences. What is the question to which you refer when you say "answer in Faith"? I assume it's the perennial "Why am I here?" I suspect you, like most people, assume there must be some deep meaning to it all, some "great purpose" you were "created" to "fulfill". That seems needlessly narcissistic to me. I am here because my parents got randy one night, and they are here for the same reason, and so on back to the first self-organizing collection of chemical reactions back in some Proterozoic sea. I don't see any need for any mystical "why". That is not at all the same as the much more interesting and important question of "given that I am here, what do I do with the brief time I have?" I have pretty strong feelings about the importance of caring for my family (in the narrow and in the broad sense, i.e. from my spouse and children to all humanity and even to all living beings that share this planet, given that we are all kin by common descent), while trying to experience and understand as much about everything as I can, all while ultimately trying to leave this world a little better off (I hope) for my having been here. None of that requires any assumptions about the existence of magical beings or divine missions, but neither is it amoral or without purpose.

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A serious question for you. If God came down, performed all sorts of miracles...

Well depending on the quality of the "miracles" I suppose I could be convinced by such a train of events. But, I have to warn you the standards for real miracles has gone up of late. Given what we know of brain chemistry, how we can have apparently real but in fact quite imaginary experiences when we tickle dopamine receptors, for example, with appropriate chemical stimuli, I would be inclined to distrust any purely "personal" experiences. I'd be looking for something that could be recorded, replicated, and observed by a lot of independent observers, including many that had no preconceived expectations. But wait, then it would be more like science, wouldn't it?

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Likewise then, who are we to tell God he cant do something, or expect immediate answers from him? Does he really have to reveal himself to us?

This line of thought I do not get at all. To me, this is nothing more than evidence that God is a purely human construct, an abstraction writ large of the supreme authority of monarchs of yesteryear, the all-powerful ruler who tolerates no dissent. God created from the clay of humanity's most base emotions, dug from the mine of 4,000-year-old political power structures.

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Ultimately, it is just our lack of faith, not whether or not we think we have the right to be angry with the way God works. I really dont think you wake up every morning and cuss God for the suffering in the world, but it makes a convenient argument when convincing ourselves he isnt real.

Don't misunderstand, I harbor no anger towards "God". Life is too short to waste energy being angry at an entity that either 1) doesn't exist, or 2) is very intent on acting exactly as if "he" doesn't exist. I might as well be angry at the face I thought I saw in a cloud yesterday.

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I find that others who are enduring suffering beyond my scope of imagination, brings more gratitude for the good things in my own life.

I hope you don't mean to imply others were made to suffer so you would have a metric to measure how good you have it? Personally, I don't feel any need to compare myself to others in order to feel gratitude for the many good things in my life.

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Doesnt nature show us that God is a caring God, a gentle God?

This is an excellent world for us because we evolved to fit it, not because it was created to meet our needs. Sometimes nature is not so caring and gentle, what does that say about "God"?

Look, you are obviously sincere about your beliefs, and they bring you comfort and meaning. That works for you. I do not feel the need to answer the questions that seem important to you. I am quite content (in fact, joyful) to live in a material world full of an inexhaustible supply of real mysteries to figure out (how does this work? Why does that happen? What lies over this mountain?), real art and music to create and experience, real people to embrace and love.

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[GeorgiaDon 340]

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...we, as humans, the weakest beings, pound for pound, of all creation...

You seem to have a different standard for strength than I do. The ability to work cooperatively has allowed us to accomplish things no other species on Earth can match. I'm continuously amazed and occasionally appalled at what we humans can do.

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Somehow, we really think, call it hope,faith, whatever, that we can stop or reverse the actions of nature. How egomaniacal of us.

The nerve of those humans, curing diseases, living in extreme environments, even flying and jumping out of planes. It's unnatural I say!

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Let's look at the space program. In the end, does it really matter that we have a close up look at the surface of Jupiter, with its storms large enough to consume the Earth? Nice pictures, and curiousity quelled, but really, it's a huge waste of time and money, because at the end of the day, it means squat.

So curiosity means squat to you? Same thing, I surmise, for art and music? It's all a "huge waste of time and energy", everything except, you guessed it, endless repetitive study of the Bible. Hmmm, seems sort of familiar, wait I've got it! It's just like the Taliban! Except, of course, they're all going to hell because they're reading the wrong book.

Here's a couple of questions for you. If we are made in God's image, is He weak and puny too? If we are curious (and I would argue it is one of our more distinctive traits), doesn't that come from God (in your world view)? How, then, could curiosity be a bad thing? Also, if the Universe and everything in it is made for our use, how could it mean "squat" for us to want to see what God has made for us? Your world seems really strange and myopic to me. I's a wonder there's any air for you to breath in there, it's so small. Come out and look around! Many others, with deep faith, have believed that all the Universe is God's grand essay; studying His works was seen as the best way to understand His mind. I feel a lot more kinship with their perspective than the small-minded view you seem to espouse. If I wasn't naturally inclined to assume the best of people, I might suspect you of being unwilling to spend he effort to learn anything of science, and bitterly resentful of those who have made that effort.

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I have a question for you. Are your days absolutely numbered?

Ah, the veiled threat. The last refuge of the fundamentalist, and too often the first refuge as well. Your days are numbered, and the lake of fire awaits. Unless you put put on blinders, and allow only Royd (as the appointed interpreter of the will of God) to tell you what to believe and what to turn away from. No fruit of the tree of knowledge for the followers of Royd!

To actually answer your question, if you mean do I believe the span of my years is for-ordained, written down in some celestial book, then no I absolutely do not believe that.

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[rynodigsmusic 0]

Don,

I had to print out your original reply, read it and formulate a response based on the questions you asked. I did not see that you were not asking those questions sincerely, but that they were only written to express the reasons why you dont believe in God. That is my fault entirely, had I really understood that, I dont believe I would have written the reply, nevertheless, I missed your intent altogehter and here we are.

You have a brilliantly deceptive way of twisting my intent into fitting the bitterness that you carry in regards to the existance of God. Faith is not about purpose, its about power. You dont understand anything about God becuause you view him from a paradigm of fantasy, he has never become real to you. There are those, as you know, who do see him as real. These are the people you believe to be foolish in their thought process (forgive me, but that is the tone in which you write)

The only difference we have is that you are a scientific non-believer and I am a non-scientific believer. Your comment on the suffering of others offended me deeply and your implications that you believe yourself to be more humane than those who believe in God is only a testiment to your own ignorance. Respectfully. I never implied nor hinted that you had less joy or love than a believer, so where you got that line of thought from I dont know. The tone of your original posting led me to believe that you were seeking understanding about faith. You didnt know how people could believe. I told you that in that line of thought you would never be able to see how. It wasnt meant to call you out or challenge you, but I guess you took it that way, so I sincerly apologize for that.

You should know however, that people find hope in God, they find hope in faith, hope is a refuge for people. Everything that you speak goes against that. While there may be refuge for you in your understanding of evolution and scientific evidence, some choose to put their hope in the spirit of love and life.

"We didn't start the fire"

[nerdgirl 0]

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While there may be refuge for you in your understanding of evolution and scientific evidence, some choose to put their hope in the spirit of love and life.

What would you imagine if rather than an either/or proposition, if it were possible to do/feel/understand/perceive both?

VR/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[rynodigsmusic 0]

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While there may be refuge for you in your understanding of evolution and scientific evidence, some choose to put their hope in the spirit of love and life.

What would you imagine if rather than an either/or proposition, if it were possible to do/feel/understand/perceive both?

VR/Marg

I think that would be great! My desire is not in science, but I do enjoy what it does. I dont have anything at all against scientist, as I told you before, I love it when people follow their desires, you obviously have a very unique and educated mind that is fashioned around understanding principles and laws of scientific things (not in any way saying you dont have strong understanding of love and life as well). Please understand that my dialogue with you might be a little limited, but I have a heart for everyone. In regards to that comment, I was only making a spiritual point that while some can speak good, encouraging and hope-filled things to others, others speak the opposite.

It is wise to keep an open heart with regards to God, while you dont know his existance, you dont know his non-existance either. Personally, I know hes real and I have all the "evidence" I need, so listening to the sarcastic tone of those who do not believe is hard.

But in answer to your question, philosophy does the same thing, so of course science would as well. We all have purpose and it is also wise to question everything while keeping an open mind and heart. I dont believe God had anything against technological advancement. I hope your understanding my balance. But let me ask you a question, how does science eliminate thoughts I do not want? (this is a sincere question)

Im sorry marg, I dont think I did very well in responding to your question. Faith is about recieving and believing how much we are loved, anything that can help me understand that, be it science, philosophy, art, music...anything, I am all for it. Ultimately, I havent found any love greater than that in Jesus, because it doesnt die, it isnt just a whisper of memory, but it is alive and I literally feel it everyday, as my sign off signiture says, it fills me with life. The very essence of Faith, Hope, and Love, is life. What I have found about love is that it hungers to be filled. Im really sorry for typing so much....

"We didn't start the fire"

[GeorgiaDon 340]

Hey Ryno,

Oops sorry, I usually try to be more diplomatic in how I phrase things. I didn't mean to offend, and in particular I admit my interpretation of your comment about the suffering of others was way out of line. I don't actually believe you believe that, and I apologize for the insinuation. I don't doubt that you, and others who present things from a Christian perspective are sincere in your beliefs. I certainly don't consider myself more humane or "joyful" or anything else than any of you. I guess I felt the need to respond to some themes that come up regularly in these discussions, such as the idea that those who don't believe in God care for no-one but themselves, have no morality, etc, but you didn't say those things and I shouldn't have directed it at you that way. For me these discussions have a bit of an academic feel, and I neglected to consider that this topic is at the core of your self identity. I'm sorry about that.
.

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...the bitterness that you carry in regards to the existance of God.

Well, I'm not aware of any "bitterness" on my part. I think you are making assumptions about how I feel; perhaps because your feeling on the subject are so strong you assume everybody else has equally strong feelings about it too?

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The only difference we have is that you are a scientific non-believer and I am a non-scientific believer.

I don't doubt that that is true. I'm sure we could talk about almost anything else and find a lot of agreement.

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...people find hope in God, they find hope in faith, hope is a refuge for people.

No disputing that, and I actually wouldn't want to take that from anyone. Just trying to explain that there are other perspectives that are also consistent with the "spirit of love and life", at least as I see it.

Peace,
Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[GeorgiaDon 340]

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What would you imagine if rather than an either/or proposition, if it were possible to do/feel/understand/perceive both?

Many people that I work with every day have this perspective. For them, it works well.

Don

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Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[philh 0]

"It is wise to keep an open heart with regards to God, while you dont know his existance, you dont know his non-existance either. "

I wonder how you would feel if someone said :
"It is wise to keep an open heart with regards to Thor, while you dont know his existance, you dont know his non-existance either." ?

[rynodigsmusic 0]

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Hey Ryno,

Oops sorry, I usually try to be more diplomatic in how I phrase things. I didn't mean to offend, and in particular I admit my interpretation of your comment about the suffering of others was way out of line. I don't actually believe you believe that, and I apologize for the insinuation. I don't doubt that you, and others who present things from a Christian perspective are sincere in your beliefs. I certainly don't consider myself more humane or "joyful" or anything else than any of you. I guess I felt the need to respond to some themes that come up regularly in these discussions, such as the idea that those who don't believe in God care for no-one but themselves, have no morality, etc, but you didn't say those things and I shouldn't have directed it at you that way. For me these discussions have a bit of an academic feel, and I neglected to consider that this topic is at the core of your self identity. I'm sorry about that.
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...the bitterness that you carry in regards to the existance of God.

Well, I'm not aware of any "bitterness" on my part. I think you are making assumptions about how I feel; perhaps because your feeling on the subject are so strong you assume everybody else has equally strong feelings about it too?

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The only difference we have is that you are a scientific non-believer and I am a non-scientific believer.

I don't doubt that that is true. I'm sure we could talk about almost anything else and find a lot of agreement.

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...people find hope in God, they find hope in faith, hope is a refuge for people.

No disputing that, and I actually wouldn't want to take that from anyone. Just trying to explain that there are other perspectives that are also consistent with the "spirit of love and life", at least as I see it.

Peace,
Don

I have gone over this response many times and I am very touched by your sincerity and truthfulness. I am embarrased for making the assumption you were bitter about anything. I am new to these forums. I had been reading in them for quite some time to get a spiritual aspect of skydiving and to see how the people who enjoy the same thing I do respond and relate to one another. I stumbled upon these last couple of threads and decided to join in. Im not sure it was the wisest descision, but it has been very inspiring to say the least. It seems what I took as bitterness may just have been frustration to the way others present God in these forums. Please forgive me, my reply to you was more of a defense to my own credibility and character in the forums. I dont want to be painted as a monster of God, self-righteous, hypocrite with no compassion, love or understanding. I am indeed quite the opposite.

I didnt mean to try and match your sincerity to make myself look better. I very much appreciated your response and I just wanted you to know...so, thank you and peace to you as well.

"We didn't start the fire"

[maadmax 0]

It is wise to keep an open heart with regards to God, while you dont know his existance, you dont know his non-existance either. "

I wonder how you would feel if someone said :
"It is wise to keep an open heart with regards to Thor, while you dont know his existance, you dont know his non-existance either." ***

I am all ears. What does Thor have to say for himself, or any deity for that matter. If there is any wisdom out there that will enable me to live a fuller life and better understand reality please convey it. The validity of any deity or philosophical theory is in the wisdom of their words.

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[nerdgirl 0]

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But let me ask you a question, how does science eliminate thoughts I do not want? (this is a sincere question)

I don’t know what you mean by that question.

Science is a process that is repeatable/reproducible, open/public, and not subjective relating to the physical/natural world to determine causal relations. The process of experimental science generates both explanations (“thoughts”) and new questions (“thoughts”); scientists tend to be very comfortable with uncertainty, even actively demanding measures of uncertainty (as opposed to imprecision or inaccuracy).

What do you mean by “eliminate thoughts”?

Or do you mean eliminate doubt?

VR/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[rynodigsmusic 0]

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But let me ask you a question, how does science eliminate thoughts I do not want? (this is a sincere question)

I don’t know what you mean by that question.

Science is a process that is repeatable/reproducible, open/public, and not subjective relating to the physical/natural world to determine causal relations. The process of experimental science generates both explanations (“thoughts”) and new questions (“thoughts”); scientists tend to be very comfortable with uncertainty, even actively demanding measures of uncertainty (as opposed to imprecision or inaccuracy).

What do you mean by “eliminate thoughts”?

Or do you mean eliminate doubt?

VR/Marg

I have a huge smile on my face right now. The way you talk is just so uniquely incredible, I have no doubt that your intelligence is "off the chart" and I am in no way patronizing you. Its just that I have read many of your posts and replys and sometimes I just start feeling so stupid, I cant explain it...and I absolutely love your forum name!!!

But anyway...its important that you understand and believe that my question was about as sincere as they get. I have thoughts that I do not want. They dont come all the time, but they make "the me I want to be" very uncomfortable and they disturb my inner peace. Until Jesus I was almost destroyed by them. Without grace, I would still be enslaved, thinking that I was just disturbed, confused, or lost. God basically said, I know you better than you know yourself, these thoughts are not what you want, but your desires make you entertain them, I forgive you and I love you. Those are very powerful words to someone who is suffering in the evasive pain of the soul. I believe I am talking about what is the foundation of temptation. What does science say about temptation? I find that through meditation and prayer I can quell them. Some of course will say just give in, do what you want, but I dont want to do that. Dont be overly concerned, I am abnormally honest with my feelings, I try to speak the truth especially if it is humiliating.

So yes, the question is what do you think about temptation, and how can you stop it?

"We didn't start the fire"