kallend 1,623 #826 May 10, 2008 Your long winded responses are just so much BS. He asked a very simple question and all you do is prevaricate. Maybe you'll explain why this family's faith in your so-called "God" resulted in tragedy. But I doubt it. "It was the will of God", or "God acts in mysterious ways" are the usual cop-out responses.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rynodigsmusic 0 #827 May 10, 2008 QuoteMy response was to your statement about being against the Gospel despite not having read it. It really doesn't matter if a person has read it or not. What Jesus has to say doesn't matter either if it's the credibility of the Bible that's being questioned. The Bible won't prove that God exists, and it doesn't even provide adequate evidence that Christianity is THE right path.Quote The right path is righteousness. To do the right thing all the time. I believe we have all stepped off this path dont you? If we believe ourselves to be righteous, then I believe we decieve ourselves. God gave us the teacher of righteousness (the light) as well as the atonement for our sin (guilt). Of course righteousness is taught elsewhere, but what about the atonement for sin? Who pays the price for our sin? Im sorry, I believe that Jesus is THE right path. That doesnt mean that others are on the wrong path. They are just on theirs. I believe if we follow our hearts, they will lead us. Is it such a bad thing to know that someone died and took the punishment for your sin? It is important to read the Gospel, I mean seriously, it takes 2-3 hrs to read one. Imagine a world where everyone wants the best for one another. If I want whats best for you, and you want whats best for me, then we would have everything we ever wanted. Many people believe they know what following Jesus is all about, just because they think they know Christianity. Christianity is about spirit, the church is meant to be a collection of those who follow Jesus and who want to learn righteousness. It was never supposed to be about passing the offering plate, communion, or getting up every sunday to go. The church does not come before the spirit, the spirit comes before the church. It is I speak the whole truth to you, you speak the whole truth to me, right down to what shames us most, and together we love one another deeply with the connection that Jesus died to give us."We didn't start the fire" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rynodigsmusic 0 #828 May 10, 2008 Quote Your long winded responses are just so much BS. He asked a very simple question and all you do is prevaricate. Maybe you'll explain why this family's faith in your so-called "God" resulted in tragedy. But I doubt it. "It was the will of God", or "God acts in mysterious ways" are the usual cop-out responses. A tragedy is just that, a tragedy. You obviously do not listen well. I told you the reason, but you didnt want to hear that. I hope you have a change of heart one day."We didn't start the fire" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,623 #829 May 10, 2008 QuoteQuote Your long winded responses are just so much BS. He asked a very simple question and all you do is prevaricate. Maybe you'll explain why this family's faith in your so-called "God" resulted in tragedy. But I doubt it. "It was the will of God", or "God acts in mysterious ways" are the usual cop-out responses. A tragedy is just that, a tragedy. You obviously do not listen well. I told you the reason, but you didnt want to hear that. I hope you have a change of heart one day. As expected, a cop-out response.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rynodigsmusic 0 #830 May 10, 2008 Quote Quote I believe Im trying to say that love couldnt be compared to science … Agreed. They both have their place, and both are important, but to compare them is like comparing length to mass or color to texture. Quote … that [love] is greater [than science] and always will be. But here you compare them, immediately after acknowledging they can't be compared. "Greater than" implies comparison. Quote I said science is limited and love is not. They are both limited, they are just limited in different ways. If love weren't limited, that child would not have died from her treatable diabetes. I think few would claim that her parents didn't love her enough. They were simply and unfortunately misguided and believed love was enough, that medical science wasn't necessary. Just as science has its limits, so does love. Science cannot heal a broken heart, nor can love cure biological disease. They believed faith was enough. Many people can have faith outside the love of God in many differnt things. Theres just something wrong with how your using love. I cant really explain it, I definitely concede you are smarter than I am. It just seems like your saying they cant be compared, then your using the comparrison of both to describe how they cant be...I dont know I cant explain it. What is clear is that we dont understand love the same way. Science can explain and will explain so many things, and I live in the fruit of its comfort (I am also weary of its power) but I believe it is limited to humans because of the question why. Love doesnt ask why and doesnt care how, it just is, that is why it is not limited."We didn't start the fire" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rynodigsmusic 0 #831 May 11, 2008 QuoteQuoteQuote Your long winded responses are just so much BS. He asked a very simple question and all you do is prevaricate. Maybe you'll explain why this family's faith in your so-called "God" resulted in tragedy. But I doubt it. "It was the will of God", or "God acts in mysterious ways" are the usual cop-out responses. A tragedy is just that, a tragedy. You obviously do not listen well. I told you the reason, but you didnt want to hear that. I hope you have a change of heart one day. As expected, a cop-out response. What is it that you do not understand? I said they were decieved and led astray from what it means to follow Jesus. I told you that just because you know someones name does not mean that you know the person. I told you that what they did was wrong and not right. I told you that reason tells me that just as I will eat the wheat from the harvest, I will take medicine from the earth. I told you that it is written, in the Gospel, not to put God to the test. I told you that not helping when you can is the same as hurting. And now I will tell you something else. In the beginning of the Gospel, satan himself tried to use Gods word against Jesus. There are people in the world right now doing the same thing. If I seem long winded to you all, it is because I am careful with my words and I want to explain so that you might understand. There are others like me as well, presenting your case. I have not called them long winded and it seems neither have you."We didn't start the fire" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites vortexring 0 #832 May 11, 2008 Your effort to continually provide sincere replies is commendable. 'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.' Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites maadmax 0 #833 May 11, 2008 How is the object of their faith false? They believed in Jesus, didn't they? Please explain how their beliefs are any different than yours.*** Please understand that I can only guess why another person faith may go amiss. Jesus Himself said many will call on my Name and I will say I knew you not. The conclusions they drew from their faith were horribly flawed, and I think they should be charged by our courts for the crime they committed. Faith in God carries a responsibility to be true to the teachings of God and not mold them to suit some personal agenda. There are some passages in the Bible that can be misunderstood with out extensive prayer, study and meditation. Anyone to lazy to put forth the effort should be held accountable if their misinterpretation causes harm to another. __________________________________________ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,623 #834 May 11, 2008 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuote Your long winded responses are just so much BS. He asked a very simple question and all you do is prevaricate. Maybe you'll explain why this family's faith in your so-called "God" resulted in tragedy. But I doubt it. "It was the will of God", or "God acts in mysterious ways" are the usual cop-out responses. A tragedy is just that, a tragedy. You obviously do not listen well. I told you the reason, but you didnt want to hear that. I hope you have a change of heart one day. As expected, a cop-out response. What is it that you do not understand? I said they were decieved and led astray from what it means to follow Jesus. .... Same cop out as always when a Christian does something evil. Heard it about the Crusades, the Inquisition, about burnings at the stake in Tudor times, about the Pope and the Jews in WWII, priests and little boys, etc, etc, etc, etc. When a pattern emerges, maybe, just maybe, it's the religion at fault.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,623 #835 May 11, 2008 QuoteYour effort to continually provide sincere replies is commendable. It would be more commendable if it weren't BS.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites likearock 1 #836 May 11, 2008 Quote These people believed their faith to be greater than it was. I dont walk around and boast about my faith in God, not in my attitude, nor in my words, Of course you do. That's pretty much all you've been doing here. Quote and I will not put God to the test. How do you know those parents were putting God "to the test" as you put it? Perhaps they simply have absolute belief in a church that has consistently demonized science whenever it has suited its objectives. Whether it's evolution, stem-cell research, it doesn't matter. For certain evangelicals, science has always been subordinate to faith. And you yourself reflect that view with your inane "Science will never be greater than love". Under those circumstances, it's a perfectly logical progression for these parents to assume that the science of medicine should also be subordinate to faith. Quote Humans have a great sense of reasoning, it has to do with the way we balance the knowledge of good and evil within us. It is not right, nor was it ever right to watch someone die when you can help them. I'm glad to hear you say that. It sounds like you understand that, at least in some cases, science can be more powerful than faith. In fact it is powerful enough to have saved the life of that girl. Without accepting medical science, no amount of faith would be capable of doing that. Quote I just hope you are listening to the right voice. Hatred toward God is already growing... Whatever negative feelings I have (and I'd characterize them as disgust rather than hatred) are only addressed towards God in your mind. You wrongly assume that I am an atheist. However, unlike you, I don't have the need to trumpet my beliefs over and over again. And any disgust I have expressed in this thread is towards a small minority of religious people, those that believe science should be subordinate or filtered in some way according to their faith. If you need to do that, you're no better than those parents. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rynodigsmusic 0 #837 May 11, 2008 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuote Your long winded responses are just so much BS. He asked a very simple question and all you do is prevaricate. Maybe you'll explain why this family's faith in your so-called "God" resulted in tragedy. But I doubt it. "It was the will of God", or "God acts in mysterious ways" are the usual cop-out responses. A tragedy is just that, a tragedy. You obviously do not listen well. I told you the reason, but you didnt want to hear that. I hope you have a change of heart one day. As expected, a cop-out response. What is it that you do not understand? I said they were decieved and led astray from what it means to follow Jesus. .... Same cop out as always when a Christian does something evil. Heard it about the Crusades, the Inquisition, about burnings at the stake in Tudor times, about the Pope and the Jews in WWII, priests and little boys, etc, etc, etc, etc. When a pattern emerges, maybe, just maybe, it's the religion at fault. Even after everything we are telling you, you still dont understand...Maybe its mans fault??"We didn't start the fire" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rynodigsmusic 0 #838 May 11, 2008 QuoteQuote These people believed their faith to be greater than it was. I dont walk around and boast about my faith in God, not in my attitude, nor in my words, Of course you do. That's pretty much all you've been doing here. Quote and I will not put God to the test. How do you know those parents were putting God "to the test" as you put it? Perhaps they simply have absolute belief in a church that has consistently demonized science whenever it has suited its objectives. Whether it's evolution, stem-cell research, it doesn't matter. For certain evangelicals, science has always been subordinate to faith. And you yourself reflect that view with your inane "Science will never be greater than love". Under those circumstances, it's a perfectly logical progression for these parents to assume that the science of medicine should also be subordinate to faith. Quote Humans have a great sense of reasoning, it has to do with the way we balance the knowledge of good and evil within us. It is not right, nor was it ever right to watch someone die when you can help them. I'm glad to hear you say that. It sounds like you understand that, at least in some cases, science can be more powerful than faith. In fact it is powerful enough to have saved the life of that girl. Without accepting medical science, no amount of faith would be capable of doing that. Quote I just hope you are listening to the right voice. Hatred toward God is already growing... Whatever negative feelings I have (and I'd characterize them as disgust rather than hatred) are only addressed towards God in your mind. You wrongly assume that I am an atheist. However, unlike you, I don't have the need to trumpet my beliefs over and over again. And any disgust I have expressed in this thread is towards a small minority of religious people, those that believe science should be subordinate or filtered in some way according to their faith. If you need to do that, you're no better than those parents. You should know that I still believe science will never be greater than love, but that I did not read the article first before I said that. That is entirely my fault. It wasnt until you said "did you even read the article" that I realized you had something attached. I owe you an apology, I should have told you that earlier. But here we are now. I belive science definitely has its place, and I am glad there are people smarter than me who were given the desire to follow it. I do not believe that science is demonized (I could be wrong), it doesnt make sense for it to be, it has too many good purposes. What cant be denied however, is that in all its good purposes there have been those who have used it for the opposite, just like religion (here we are at that balance thing again). Am I to "assume" that you believe the making of the atom bomb was a good idea, just because you follow science? No, nor would I assume that. You accuse me of assuming that you are an atheist? I apologize if I came off as assuming that, sincerely I do. But, arent you assuming that I am one of the evil religious people just the same? While I dont agree with only using prayer to heal someone, or help them, I do strongly agree in prayers power. No one knows why God works the way he does. No one knows why tragedys happen. Have you even thought about what a tragedy is? They are so horrible and seemingly unfair on both ends. There is no "hinesight" on a tragedy, and we can all be used in one. To me it shows that there will always be things that cannot be explained. You are more than welcome to not believe in the power of faith because of this tragedy, but then it seems to me that you would be buying into exactly what the deception that was working in that family wants you to. To me, a tragedy is the work of deception and evil, allowed by the balance, but forged for the work of the dark side; a "perfect storm" of evil with casualties beyond that which is even seen or heard."We didn't start the fire" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Mockingbird 0 #839 May 11, 2008 QuoteQuoteChoosing to use a dictionary meaning of the word entropy instead of an actual explanation of the concept of entropy is an indicator that you really do not understand what entropy is. That's pretty funny, jcd#####, since that's normally the main function of a dictionary. I used it to reduce the explanation to its lowest terms, understandable to all (especially me). Is the general idea of entropy, as given by the American Heritage Dictionary, untrue? Here it is again to refresh your memory: QuoteENTROPY NOUN: Inflected forms: pl. en·tro·pies 1. Symbol S For a closed thermodynamic system, a quantitative measure of the amount of thermal energy not available to do work. 2. A measure of the disorder or randomness in a closed system. 3. A measure of the loss of information in a transmitted message. 4. The tendency for all matter and energy in the universe to evolve toward a state of inert uniformity. 5. Inevitable and steady deterioration of a system or society. Incidentally, I took a bit of time this evening to read about different models that attempt to explain the origins of the universe. It was interesting, but I found Hawking's comments on his version of the Quantum Gravity Model to be the most interesting... You know, the speculation of the different models avoiding the necessity of divine intervention. I couldn't help but think of the story of the elephant and the blind Indians.Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites maadmax 0 #840 May 11, 2008 Same cop out as always when a Christian does something evil. Heard it about the Crusades, the Inquisition, about burnings at the stake in Tudor times, about the Pope and the Jews in WWII, priests and little boys, etc, etc, etc, etc. When a pattern emerges, maybe, just maybe, it's the religion at fault.*** And maybe you may someday understand the difference. Religion is an organized man made attempt to improve on Gods Word. Religion will always be faulty. The production of such organizations speak for themselves. Spirituality, underpinned by a lucid understanding of the Word of God, is something all together different. It is everything we long for: belonging, freedom form hate, love, power, purpose and destiny to name just a few of its characteristics. And when a Christian sins, which we all do, we acknowledge it, confess it, repent , and move on. If we have caused harm, we make restitution. We are far from perfect, but we are scrubbed clean and forgiven, free to start over again, as many times as it takes. _______________________________________ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jcd11235 0 #841 May 11, 2008 QuoteENTROPY NOUN: Inflected forms: pl. en·tro·pies 1. Symbol S For a closed thermodynamic system, a quantitative measure of the amount of thermal energy not available to do work. 2. A measure of the disorder or randomness in a closed system. 3. A measure of the loss of information in a transmitted message. 4. The tendency for all matter and energy in the universe to evolve toward a state of inert uniformity. 5. Inevitable and steady deterioration of a system or society. QuoteIs the general idea of entropy, as given by the American Heritage Dictionary, untrue? None of them are very precise. One is the best of them, but the link JackC provided to you is much better than your American Heritage Dictionary. In what units does your dictionary tell you entropy is measured? That would be an important bit of information to know if one wanted to understand precisely what entropy was. QuoteI couldn't help but think of the story of the elephant and the blind Indians. I'm not sure why they reminded you of that parable, since cosmologists tend to all look at the same data. It's what they don't yet see that allows multiple plausible explanations. Scientists aren't insecure about not yet knowing all the answers. They don't feel any need to assign responsibility to a supernatural being, for the existence of which there is zero scientific evidence.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Mockingbird 0 #842 May 11, 2008 QuoteQuoteENTROPY NOUN: Inflected forms: pl. en·tro·pies 1. Symbol S For a closed thermodynamic system, a quantitative measure of the amount of thermal energy not available to do work. 2. A measure of the disorder or randomness in a closed system. 3. A measure of the loss of information in a transmitted message. 4. The tendency for all matter and energy in the universe to evolve toward a state of inert uniformity. 5. Inevitable and steady deterioration of a system or society. QuoteIs the general idea of entropy, as given by the American Heritage Dictionary, untrue? None of them are very precise. One is the best of them, but the link JackC provided to you is much better than your American Heritage Dictionary. In what units does your dictionary tell you entropy is measured? That would be an important bit of information to know if one wanted to understand precisely what entropy was. You know the glass of ice water in the room illustration? I have a question about this: QuoteOver time the temperature of the glass and its contents and the temperature of the room become equal. The entropy of the room has decreased as some of its energy has been dispersed to the ice and water. However, as calculated in the example, the entropy of the system of ice and water has increased more than the entropy of the surrounding room has decreased. In an isolated system such as the room and ice water taken together, the dispersal of energy from warmer to cooler always results in a net increase in entropy. Thus, when the 'universe' of the room and ice water system has reached a temperature equilibrium, the entropy change from the initial state is at a maximum. The entropy of the thermodynamic system is a measure of how far the equalization has progressed. When the universe's state of entropy reaches a maximum, how will it appear/feel/etc.?Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jcd11235 0 #843 May 11, 2008 QuoteWhen the universe's state of entropy reaches a maximum, how will it appear/feel/etc.? That's the $64,000 question. No one knows for certain. Considering that for a given volume, a black hole has maximum entropy, it is certainly not unrealistic to consider a pre-Big Bang/Big Bounce/singularity type scenario.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jakee 1,254 #844 May 11, 2008 QuoteThat's pretty funny, jcd#####, since that's normally the main function of a dictionary. I don't know of anyone (except you) who would attempt to use a dictionary definition to gain a working understanding of the ramifications of a scientific concept. QuoteIs the general idea of entropy, as given by the American Heritage Dictionary, untrue? It's not whether or not it's true, it's whether or not it provides you with sufficient information to make pronouncements on the future of all matter in the universe (and argue said pronouncement with profesional scientists), and the answer to that question is a resounding 'No'.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JackC 0 #845 May 11, 2008 QuoteI dont walk around and boast about my faith in God, not in my attitude, nor in my words, Dude, that's all you do. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Shotgun 1 #846 May 11, 2008 I prefer to live by the rules of Monty Python: Always look on the bright side of life . . . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,623 #847 May 11, 2008 Quote What is it that you do not understand? I said they were decieved and led astray from what it means to follow Jesus. .... Same cop out as always when a Christian does something evil. Heard it about the Crusades, the Inquisition, about burnings at the stake in Tudor times, about the Pope and the Jews in WWII, priests and little boys, etc, etc, etc, etc. When a pattern emerges, maybe, just maybe, it's the religion at fault. Even after everything we are telling you, you still dont understand...Maybe its mans fault?? You flatter yourself. You are not telling me anything I didn't hear 50 years ago. I spent 12 years in schools where we had a daily dose of religious mumbo-jumbo. I even believed it for a while. Then I realized it was all man-made BS with not one shred of evidence to support it. Talk about a house of cards.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rynodigsmusic 0 #828 May 10, 2008 Quote Your long winded responses are just so much BS. He asked a very simple question and all you do is prevaricate. Maybe you'll explain why this family's faith in your so-called "God" resulted in tragedy. But I doubt it. "It was the will of God", or "God acts in mysterious ways" are the usual cop-out responses. A tragedy is just that, a tragedy. You obviously do not listen well. I told you the reason, but you didnt want to hear that. I hope you have a change of heart one day."We didn't start the fire" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #829 May 10, 2008 QuoteQuote Your long winded responses are just so much BS. He asked a very simple question and all you do is prevaricate. Maybe you'll explain why this family's faith in your so-called "God" resulted in tragedy. But I doubt it. "It was the will of God", or "God acts in mysterious ways" are the usual cop-out responses. A tragedy is just that, a tragedy. You obviously do not listen well. I told you the reason, but you didnt want to hear that. I hope you have a change of heart one day. As expected, a cop-out response.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rynodigsmusic 0 #830 May 10, 2008 Quote Quote I believe Im trying to say that love couldnt be compared to science … Agreed. They both have their place, and both are important, but to compare them is like comparing length to mass or color to texture. Quote … that [love] is greater [than science] and always will be. But here you compare them, immediately after acknowledging they can't be compared. "Greater than" implies comparison. Quote I said science is limited and love is not. They are both limited, they are just limited in different ways. If love weren't limited, that child would not have died from her treatable diabetes. I think few would claim that her parents didn't love her enough. They were simply and unfortunately misguided and believed love was enough, that medical science wasn't necessary. Just as science has its limits, so does love. Science cannot heal a broken heart, nor can love cure biological disease. They believed faith was enough. Many people can have faith outside the love of God in many differnt things. Theres just something wrong with how your using love. I cant really explain it, I definitely concede you are smarter than I am. It just seems like your saying they cant be compared, then your using the comparrison of both to describe how they cant be...I dont know I cant explain it. What is clear is that we dont understand love the same way. Science can explain and will explain so many things, and I live in the fruit of its comfort (I am also weary of its power) but I believe it is limited to humans because of the question why. Love doesnt ask why and doesnt care how, it just is, that is why it is not limited."We didn't start the fire" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rynodigsmusic 0 #831 May 11, 2008 QuoteQuoteQuote Your long winded responses are just so much BS. He asked a very simple question and all you do is prevaricate. Maybe you'll explain why this family's faith in your so-called "God" resulted in tragedy. But I doubt it. "It was the will of God", or "God acts in mysterious ways" are the usual cop-out responses. A tragedy is just that, a tragedy. You obviously do not listen well. I told you the reason, but you didnt want to hear that. I hope you have a change of heart one day. As expected, a cop-out response. What is it that you do not understand? I said they were decieved and led astray from what it means to follow Jesus. I told you that just because you know someones name does not mean that you know the person. I told you that what they did was wrong and not right. I told you that reason tells me that just as I will eat the wheat from the harvest, I will take medicine from the earth. I told you that it is written, in the Gospel, not to put God to the test. I told you that not helping when you can is the same as hurting. And now I will tell you something else. In the beginning of the Gospel, satan himself tried to use Gods word against Jesus. There are people in the world right now doing the same thing. If I seem long winded to you all, it is because I am careful with my words and I want to explain so that you might understand. There are others like me as well, presenting your case. I have not called them long winded and it seems neither have you."We didn't start the fire" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vortexring 0 #832 May 11, 2008 Your effort to continually provide sincere replies is commendable. 'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.' Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
maadmax 0 #833 May 11, 2008 How is the object of their faith false? They believed in Jesus, didn't they? Please explain how their beliefs are any different than yours.*** Please understand that I can only guess why another person faith may go amiss. Jesus Himself said many will call on my Name and I will say I knew you not. The conclusions they drew from their faith were horribly flawed, and I think they should be charged by our courts for the crime they committed. Faith in God carries a responsibility to be true to the teachings of God and not mold them to suit some personal agenda. There are some passages in the Bible that can be misunderstood with out extensive prayer, study and meditation. Anyone to lazy to put forth the effort should be held accountable if their misinterpretation causes harm to another. __________________________________________ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #834 May 11, 2008 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuote Your long winded responses are just so much BS. He asked a very simple question and all you do is prevaricate. Maybe you'll explain why this family's faith in your so-called "God" resulted in tragedy. But I doubt it. "It was the will of God", or "God acts in mysterious ways" are the usual cop-out responses. A tragedy is just that, a tragedy. You obviously do not listen well. I told you the reason, but you didnt want to hear that. I hope you have a change of heart one day. As expected, a cop-out response. What is it that you do not understand? I said they were decieved and led astray from what it means to follow Jesus. .... Same cop out as always when a Christian does something evil. Heard it about the Crusades, the Inquisition, about burnings at the stake in Tudor times, about the Pope and the Jews in WWII, priests and little boys, etc, etc, etc, etc. When a pattern emerges, maybe, just maybe, it's the religion at fault.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #835 May 11, 2008 QuoteYour effort to continually provide sincere replies is commendable. It would be more commendable if it weren't BS.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
likearock 1 #836 May 11, 2008 Quote These people believed their faith to be greater than it was. I dont walk around and boast about my faith in God, not in my attitude, nor in my words, Of course you do. That's pretty much all you've been doing here. Quote and I will not put God to the test. How do you know those parents were putting God "to the test" as you put it? Perhaps they simply have absolute belief in a church that has consistently demonized science whenever it has suited its objectives. Whether it's evolution, stem-cell research, it doesn't matter. For certain evangelicals, science has always been subordinate to faith. And you yourself reflect that view with your inane "Science will never be greater than love". Under those circumstances, it's a perfectly logical progression for these parents to assume that the science of medicine should also be subordinate to faith. Quote Humans have a great sense of reasoning, it has to do with the way we balance the knowledge of good and evil within us. It is not right, nor was it ever right to watch someone die when you can help them. I'm glad to hear you say that. It sounds like you understand that, at least in some cases, science can be more powerful than faith. In fact it is powerful enough to have saved the life of that girl. Without accepting medical science, no amount of faith would be capable of doing that. Quote I just hope you are listening to the right voice. Hatred toward God is already growing... Whatever negative feelings I have (and I'd characterize them as disgust rather than hatred) are only addressed towards God in your mind. You wrongly assume that I am an atheist. However, unlike you, I don't have the need to trumpet my beliefs over and over again. And any disgust I have expressed in this thread is towards a small minority of religious people, those that believe science should be subordinate or filtered in some way according to their faith. If you need to do that, you're no better than those parents. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rynodigsmusic 0 #837 May 11, 2008 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuote Your long winded responses are just so much BS. He asked a very simple question and all you do is prevaricate. Maybe you'll explain why this family's faith in your so-called "God" resulted in tragedy. But I doubt it. "It was the will of God", or "God acts in mysterious ways" are the usual cop-out responses. A tragedy is just that, a tragedy. You obviously do not listen well. I told you the reason, but you didnt want to hear that. I hope you have a change of heart one day. As expected, a cop-out response. What is it that you do not understand? I said they were decieved and led astray from what it means to follow Jesus. .... Same cop out as always when a Christian does something evil. Heard it about the Crusades, the Inquisition, about burnings at the stake in Tudor times, about the Pope and the Jews in WWII, priests and little boys, etc, etc, etc, etc. When a pattern emerges, maybe, just maybe, it's the religion at fault. Even after everything we are telling you, you still dont understand...Maybe its mans fault??"We didn't start the fire" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rynodigsmusic 0 #838 May 11, 2008 QuoteQuote These people believed their faith to be greater than it was. I dont walk around and boast about my faith in God, not in my attitude, nor in my words, Of course you do. That's pretty much all you've been doing here. Quote and I will not put God to the test. How do you know those parents were putting God "to the test" as you put it? Perhaps they simply have absolute belief in a church that has consistently demonized science whenever it has suited its objectives. Whether it's evolution, stem-cell research, it doesn't matter. For certain evangelicals, science has always been subordinate to faith. And you yourself reflect that view with your inane "Science will never be greater than love". Under those circumstances, it's a perfectly logical progression for these parents to assume that the science of medicine should also be subordinate to faith. Quote Humans have a great sense of reasoning, it has to do with the way we balance the knowledge of good and evil within us. It is not right, nor was it ever right to watch someone die when you can help them. I'm glad to hear you say that. It sounds like you understand that, at least in some cases, science can be more powerful than faith. In fact it is powerful enough to have saved the life of that girl. Without accepting medical science, no amount of faith would be capable of doing that. Quote I just hope you are listening to the right voice. Hatred toward God is already growing... Whatever negative feelings I have (and I'd characterize them as disgust rather than hatred) are only addressed towards God in your mind. You wrongly assume that I am an atheist. However, unlike you, I don't have the need to trumpet my beliefs over and over again. And any disgust I have expressed in this thread is towards a small minority of religious people, those that believe science should be subordinate or filtered in some way according to their faith. If you need to do that, you're no better than those parents. You should know that I still believe science will never be greater than love, but that I did not read the article first before I said that. That is entirely my fault. It wasnt until you said "did you even read the article" that I realized you had something attached. I owe you an apology, I should have told you that earlier. But here we are now. I belive science definitely has its place, and I am glad there are people smarter than me who were given the desire to follow it. I do not believe that science is demonized (I could be wrong), it doesnt make sense for it to be, it has too many good purposes. What cant be denied however, is that in all its good purposes there have been those who have used it for the opposite, just like religion (here we are at that balance thing again). Am I to "assume" that you believe the making of the atom bomb was a good idea, just because you follow science? No, nor would I assume that. You accuse me of assuming that you are an atheist? I apologize if I came off as assuming that, sincerely I do. But, arent you assuming that I am one of the evil religious people just the same? While I dont agree with only using prayer to heal someone, or help them, I do strongly agree in prayers power. No one knows why God works the way he does. No one knows why tragedys happen. Have you even thought about what a tragedy is? They are so horrible and seemingly unfair on both ends. There is no "hinesight" on a tragedy, and we can all be used in one. To me it shows that there will always be things that cannot be explained. You are more than welcome to not believe in the power of faith because of this tragedy, but then it seems to me that you would be buying into exactly what the deception that was working in that family wants you to. To me, a tragedy is the work of deception and evil, allowed by the balance, but forged for the work of the dark side; a "perfect storm" of evil with casualties beyond that which is even seen or heard."We didn't start the fire" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mockingbird 0 #839 May 11, 2008 QuoteQuoteChoosing to use a dictionary meaning of the word entropy instead of an actual explanation of the concept of entropy is an indicator that you really do not understand what entropy is. That's pretty funny, jcd#####, since that's normally the main function of a dictionary. I used it to reduce the explanation to its lowest terms, understandable to all (especially me). Is the general idea of entropy, as given by the American Heritage Dictionary, untrue? Here it is again to refresh your memory: QuoteENTROPY NOUN: Inflected forms: pl. en·tro·pies 1. Symbol S For a closed thermodynamic system, a quantitative measure of the amount of thermal energy not available to do work. 2. A measure of the disorder or randomness in a closed system. 3. A measure of the loss of information in a transmitted message. 4. The tendency for all matter and energy in the universe to evolve toward a state of inert uniformity. 5. Inevitable and steady deterioration of a system or society. Incidentally, I took a bit of time this evening to read about different models that attempt to explain the origins of the universe. It was interesting, but I found Hawking's comments on his version of the Quantum Gravity Model to be the most interesting... You know, the speculation of the different models avoiding the necessity of divine intervention. I couldn't help but think of the story of the elephant and the blind Indians.Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
maadmax 0 #840 May 11, 2008 Same cop out as always when a Christian does something evil. Heard it about the Crusades, the Inquisition, about burnings at the stake in Tudor times, about the Pope and the Jews in WWII, priests and little boys, etc, etc, etc, etc. When a pattern emerges, maybe, just maybe, it's the religion at fault.*** And maybe you may someday understand the difference. Religion is an organized man made attempt to improve on Gods Word. Religion will always be faulty. The production of such organizations speak for themselves. Spirituality, underpinned by a lucid understanding of the Word of God, is something all together different. It is everything we long for: belonging, freedom form hate, love, power, purpose and destiny to name just a few of its characteristics. And when a Christian sins, which we all do, we acknowledge it, confess it, repent , and move on. If we have caused harm, we make restitution. We are far from perfect, but we are scrubbed clean and forgiven, free to start over again, as many times as it takes. _______________________________________ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #841 May 11, 2008 QuoteENTROPY NOUN: Inflected forms: pl. en·tro·pies 1. Symbol S For a closed thermodynamic system, a quantitative measure of the amount of thermal energy not available to do work. 2. A measure of the disorder or randomness in a closed system. 3. A measure of the loss of information in a transmitted message. 4. The tendency for all matter and energy in the universe to evolve toward a state of inert uniformity. 5. Inevitable and steady deterioration of a system or society. QuoteIs the general idea of entropy, as given by the American Heritage Dictionary, untrue? None of them are very precise. One is the best of them, but the link JackC provided to you is much better than your American Heritage Dictionary. In what units does your dictionary tell you entropy is measured? That would be an important bit of information to know if one wanted to understand precisely what entropy was. QuoteI couldn't help but think of the story of the elephant and the blind Indians. I'm not sure why they reminded you of that parable, since cosmologists tend to all look at the same data. It's what they don't yet see that allows multiple plausible explanations. Scientists aren't insecure about not yet knowing all the answers. They don't feel any need to assign responsibility to a supernatural being, for the existence of which there is zero scientific evidence.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mockingbird 0 #842 May 11, 2008 QuoteQuoteENTROPY NOUN: Inflected forms: pl. en·tro·pies 1. Symbol S For a closed thermodynamic system, a quantitative measure of the amount of thermal energy not available to do work. 2. A measure of the disorder or randomness in a closed system. 3. A measure of the loss of information in a transmitted message. 4. The tendency for all matter and energy in the universe to evolve toward a state of inert uniformity. 5. Inevitable and steady deterioration of a system or society. QuoteIs the general idea of entropy, as given by the American Heritage Dictionary, untrue? None of them are very precise. One is the best of them, but the link JackC provided to you is much better than your American Heritage Dictionary. In what units does your dictionary tell you entropy is measured? That would be an important bit of information to know if one wanted to understand precisely what entropy was. You know the glass of ice water in the room illustration? I have a question about this: QuoteOver time the temperature of the glass and its contents and the temperature of the room become equal. The entropy of the room has decreased as some of its energy has been dispersed to the ice and water. However, as calculated in the example, the entropy of the system of ice and water has increased more than the entropy of the surrounding room has decreased. In an isolated system such as the room and ice water taken together, the dispersal of energy from warmer to cooler always results in a net increase in entropy. Thus, when the 'universe' of the room and ice water system has reached a temperature equilibrium, the entropy change from the initial state is at a maximum. The entropy of the thermodynamic system is a measure of how far the equalization has progressed. When the universe's state of entropy reaches a maximum, how will it appear/feel/etc.?Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #843 May 11, 2008 QuoteWhen the universe's state of entropy reaches a maximum, how will it appear/feel/etc.? That's the $64,000 question. No one knows for certain. Considering that for a given volume, a black hole has maximum entropy, it is certainly not unrealistic to consider a pre-Big Bang/Big Bounce/singularity type scenario.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,254 #844 May 11, 2008 QuoteThat's pretty funny, jcd#####, since that's normally the main function of a dictionary. I don't know of anyone (except you) who would attempt to use a dictionary definition to gain a working understanding of the ramifications of a scientific concept. QuoteIs the general idea of entropy, as given by the American Heritage Dictionary, untrue? It's not whether or not it's true, it's whether or not it provides you with sufficient information to make pronouncements on the future of all matter in the universe (and argue said pronouncement with profesional scientists), and the answer to that question is a resounding 'No'.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackC 0 #845 May 11, 2008 QuoteI dont walk around and boast about my faith in God, not in my attitude, nor in my words, Dude, that's all you do. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgun 1 #846 May 11, 2008 I prefer to live by the rules of Monty Python: Always look on the bright side of life . . . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #847 May 11, 2008 Quote What is it that you do not understand? I said they were decieved and led astray from what it means to follow Jesus. .... Same cop out as always when a Christian does something evil. Heard it about the Crusades, the Inquisition, about burnings at the stake in Tudor times, about the Pope and the Jews in WWII, priests and little boys, etc, etc, etc, etc. When a pattern emerges, maybe, just maybe, it's the religion at fault. Even after everything we are telling you, you still dont understand...Maybe its mans fault?? You flatter yourself. You are not telling me anything I didn't hear 50 years ago. I spent 12 years in schools where we had a daily dose of religious mumbo-jumbo. I even believed it for a while. Then I realized it was all man-made BS with not one shred of evidence to support it. Talk about a house of cards.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georgerussia 0 #848 May 11, 2008 Quote You need to slow down, take a breath, and listen. I would not say that you believed in the Iraq war just because you are American. The question was, how was what that family believed different from what you believe? Iraq was is completely irrelevant. Quote Those who do things in the name of others do not necessarily know the person. There are many people in the Church that are being led astray from the true teachings of Jesus. This was already prophesied by Jesus himself 2000 yrs ago. But we just got to conclusion that nobody could be sure they are following true teaching of Jesus. You said it yourself that humans can be easily deceived, and you say it yourself that you cannot test the God, and therefore there is no reliable way to test whether you follow true teaching or not. So if you allege that the family did not follow true teaching of Jesus, and therefore expecting an act of mercy from your God was "putting God to the test", it might be true as well that you do not follow true teaching of Jesus, and expecting an act of mercy from your God (like saving you from eternal life in Hell - much more significant that saving someone with medically curable disease!) will also be "putting God to the test". So basically by this you are saying that your beliefs are not different from theirs, and although you think you follow true teachings of Jesus, you acknowledge you might be just deceived, and will end up in Hell because of that. Thus there is no real reason even to try to follow any teachings of Jesus - the chance you're deceived is too high, and not worth it.* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rynodigsmusic 0 #849 May 11, 2008 QuoteQuoteI dont walk around and boast about my faith in God, not in my attitude, nor in my words, Dude, that's all you do. I really dont think thats fair. Isnt the truth, that the motive behind what I say is not that I boast about my faith, but that I tell you about what I have learned, just as you tell me about what youve learned? I am continuously impressed at the number of people drawn in to modern day spirituality books, conveniently leaving out sin. No body, not me, not anybody wants to admit they are guilty of sin, but isnt it the truth? Arent there things you have done that you are a little remorseful about, or even greatly remorseful about? You should at least know the prophecy of the end times as Jesus says it. There will be an entire new religion that will appeal to everyone. The head of this religion will be the anti christ and his followers. The knowledge that they posess will be greater than anything you have heard yet, and they will have power and miracles to back it up. Many believers will turn away and follow this because it will be so incredibly unbelievably deceving (this could mean me as well). The spirit of this new religion is already on the hearts of many today, because it will make sense to everyone. The anti christ will put himself above all that is God and becasue of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold. There will be wars and rumors of wars, and revolution will be the core motivation of this new religions followers..."Get rid of all who believe in God, especailly the Christians" Why is it easier to dislike a Christian than it is to dislike a bhuddist monk? Both could be treating you the exact same, with tenderness and compassion, but one follows Jesus, the other Bhudda. So it is not the followers you may dislike but who they follow. The anti christ is just that, anti christ. Please dont think that I am insinuating your one of them. I have only told you the prophecy and what to be aware of. And I am sorry if you believe I am boasting."We didn't start the fire" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rynodigsmusic 0 #850 May 11, 2008 QuoteQuote What is it that you do not understand? I said they were decieved and led astray from what it means to follow Jesus. .... Same cop out as always when a Christian does something evil. Heard it about the Crusades, the Inquisition, about burnings at the stake in Tudor times, about the Pope and the Jews in WWII, priests and little boys, etc, etc, etc, etc. When a pattern emerges, maybe, just maybe, it's the religion at fault. Even after everything we are telling you, you still dont understand...Maybe its mans fault?? You flatter yourself. You are not telling me anything I didn't hear 50 years ago. I spent 12 years in schools where we had a daily dose of religious mumbo-jumbo. I even believed it for a while. Then I realized it was all man-made BS with not one shred of evidence to support it. Talk about a house of cards. How is it considered flattery if I just blamed myself? Have you even read the Gospel? I too was at the mercy of a man made religion, what they said, and what they taught. It takes the spirit to teach the spirit. There are many out there who just want to be preachers because they want to be exalted, of course there are many to the opposite as well, but... you should at least know what it is that you deny"We didn't start the fire" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
