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Gawain 0
QuoteThe Olympics will have an impact on China, and not the one that the Party wants. It's already a country where would be capitalists can build wealth, and social changes are following. The Internet didn't exist in 1989 (was still in the darpa/nsfnet phase) when Tianamen happened - now it is much harder for the government to act without scrutiny. Anyone with a cellphone and a dialup connection can film and release video to the world in hours.
Yet, despite that technology, China has managed to prevent mass distribution of what's been happening in Lhasa the past couple months. Look in last week's Economist, who wrote about what they saw at the onset of the fires and destruction.
The economic reforms have not liberalized the hardline communistic control of the government. An old friend of mine wrote a thesis to the contrary, convinced that with the preferred trading status, they would reform. They have not, and will not. Do not think for one moment that the government has released an iota of control.
Tibet has had great economic growth and development the past 20 years. It has not lessened the resentment of the native Tibetens. Their religious leader is still in exile, as is their government.
The Chinese government has control over internet content as well as cell phone network capacity. All major companies are under a very tight framework if not government owned.
So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!
Max,
I believe the issue is much more complex than it appears in the West.
It is true that China is NOT a democracy. But personal freedom have greatly evolved in the past several years, and I can feel the difference since I moved here. The Chinese government is weary not to do what Russia did, and I think the world should be thankful they are following this path. Iraq would seem like a paradise if China were to break up, and that is the real issue at stake with Tibet.
Much more pressing than Tibet is the issue of Xinjiang. A huge province just North of Tibet, originally populated by Muslim nomad tribes. There is a very strong separatist movement in Xinjiang, calling for the creation of a greater Turkestan (which would encompass other central Asia territories). As you can imagine, this movement is strongly supported by groups such as AQ. One of the main fear of the Chinese regime is should Tibet be granted independence, more provinces would follow, especially Xinjiang.
In both Xinjiang and Tibet, you will find a majority of Hans (which have been sent by the communist in the 60's, 70's and 80's to dilute the local population). Unfortunately, you know find yourself with a situation where there are 2nd and 3rd generation of Hans who are Tibetans and XinJiang"ese". And they represent the majority of the population. Should there be indeed a free referendum in these provinces, the (Han) majority would probably vote to stay within China. Now, the question is how do you address this problem?
- a Mugabe style of policy, where you essentially take away from the Hans and give to the local ethnic groups?
- support the creation of countries out of what was the Chinese empire
Max, would you support independence for the Kurds in Iraq? The Basques in Spain? The Chechnyans? Would you support a policy of ethnic cleansing against the Hans in order to return the land to the original local tribes?
Unless you answer YES to all of the above, then you can start grasping the complexity of the situation in China. I myself have major issues with the way the situation is handled by the Chinese authorities. But I also believe that most calling for a "Free Tibet" (unlike the Dalai Lama himself) do it without having a clue of what the situation is in Tibet and China.
"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."
I believe the issue is much more complex than it appears in the West.
It is true that China is NOT a democracy. But personal freedom have greatly evolved in the past several years, and I can feel the difference since I moved here. The Chinese government is weary not to do what Russia did, and I think the world should be thankful they are following this path. Iraq would seem like a paradise if China were to break up, and that is the real issue at stake with Tibet.
Much more pressing than Tibet is the issue of Xinjiang. A huge province just North of Tibet, originally populated by Muslim nomad tribes. There is a very strong separatist movement in Xinjiang, calling for the creation of a greater Turkestan (which would encompass other central Asia territories). As you can imagine, this movement is strongly supported by groups such as AQ. One of the main fear of the Chinese regime is should Tibet be granted independence, more provinces would follow, especially Xinjiang.
In both Xinjiang and Tibet, you will find a majority of Hans (which have been sent by the communist in the 60's, 70's and 80's to dilute the local population). Unfortunately, you know find yourself with a situation where there are 2nd and 3rd generation of Hans who are Tibetans and XinJiang"ese". And they represent the majority of the population. Should there be indeed a free referendum in these provinces, the (Han) majority would probably vote to stay within China. Now, the question is how do you address this problem?
- a Mugabe style of policy, where you essentially take away from the Hans and give to the local ethnic groups?
- support the creation of countries out of what was the Chinese empire
Max, would you support independence for the Kurds in Iraq? The Basques in Spain? The Chechnyans? Would you support a policy of ethnic cleansing against the Hans in order to return the land to the original local tribes?
Unless you answer YES to all of the above, then you can start grasping the complexity of the situation in China. I myself have major issues with the way the situation is handled by the Chinese authorities. But I also believe that most calling for a "Free Tibet" (unlike the Dalai Lama himself) do it without having a clue of what the situation is in Tibet and China.
"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."
kallend 1,635
QuoteI find the whole torch/Tibet protest thinggie utterly ludicrous.
The Olympics have become ludicrous. A massive money-making exercise to see whose performance enhancing drugs are best at going undetected.
...
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
billvon 2,413
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>What boost will this give China? None.
UBS estimates the Olympics will keep Chinese economic growth rate at over 12 percent from 2007 to 2010, and create 745,000 new jobs from 2004 to 2009. Almost a million jobs is hardly "none."
UBS estimates the Olympics will keep Chinese economic growth rate at over 12 percent from 2007 to 2010, and create 745,000 new jobs from 2004 to 2009. Almost a million jobs is hardly "none."
BillyVance 34
QuoteQuoteI find the whole torch/Tibet protest thinggie utterly ludicrous.
The Olympics have become ludicrous. A massive money-making exercise to see whose performance enhancing drugs are best at going undetected.
I'll tell you what's ludicrous. Have you seen their Olympic stadium? What kind of fucked up shit facade is THAT?
"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban
QuoteI'll tell you what's ludicrous. Have you seen their Olympic stadium? What kind of fucked up shit facade is THAT? Crazy
Uh? I think it's an amazing piece of architecture. In the shape of a bird nest. And next to it is the "Water bubble", which will host all the swimming and diving events. These 2 are some serious pieces of creative design IMO.
"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."
Quote>What boost will this give China? None.
UBS estimates the Olympics will keep Chinese economic growth rate at over 12 percent from 2007 to 2010, and create 745,000 new jobs from 2004 to 2009. Almost a million jobs is hardly "none."
In a nation of 1.4B, it's closer to none than it would be in the US with less than 1/4th the population. China has been claiming > 10% growth for a long time. But where does this money come from? Most cities lose money hosting the Olympics and I don't see it any different for Beijing. They will end up with a lot of capital improvements that will remain afterwards, but there was a lot of financial and people costs in getting there.
I do believe China feels that hosting the Olympics will validate that they are a top tier nation, but it isn't going to give them a free pass on Tibet, and it's not really a legitimate belief anyway. As I alluded to, Greece is a small player in the world scene.
BTW, UBS is one of the financials on the watch list to join Bear in death.
billvon 2,413
>I do believe China feels that hosting the Olympics will validate that they
>are a top tier nation, but it isn't going to give them a free pass on Tibet.
"Free pass?" I agree; it won't give them a free pass. But will it indicate a greater worldwide validation of China's government (and governmental policies?) To some degree, yes.
As a secondary question, do you think the boycott of the 1980 olympics was meaningless?
>are a top tier nation, but it isn't going to give them a free pass on Tibet.
"Free pass?" I agree; it won't give them a free pass. But will it indicate a greater worldwide validation of China's government (and governmental policies?) To some degree, yes.
As a secondary question, do you think the boycott of the 1980 olympics was meaningless?
Quote
As a secondary question, do you think the boycott of the 1980 olympics was meaningless?
I can't answer with direct memories. I recall the Reagan win that year, but little more.
But my answer is yes - it was bullshit that hurt a lot of athletes and accomplished nothing. It lead to the retaliation in 84 that hurt a lot of Eastern athletes and gave Americans a lot more gold medals, but cheapened ones.
Gawain 0
QuoteMax,
I believe the issue is much more complex than it appears in the West.
It is true that China is NOT a democracy. But personal freedom have greatly evolved in the past several years, and I can feel the difference since I moved here. The Chinese government is weary not to do what Russia did, and I think the world should be thankful they are following this path. Iraq would seem like a paradise if China were to break up, and that is the real issue at stake with Tibet.
Much more pressing than Tibet is the issue of Xinjiang. A huge province just North of Tibet, originally populated by Muslim nomad tribes. There is a very strong separatist movement in Xinjiang, calling for the creation of a greater Turkestan (which would encompass other central Asia territories). As you can imagine, this movement is strongly supported by groups such as AQ. One of the main fear of the Chinese regime is should Tibet be granted independence, more provinces would follow, especially Xinjiang.
That is the rub for China isn't it. They are now reaping what they have sewn. Had China not invaded Tibet in 1950, they would not be facing this problem.
As for Xinjiang, this too, should be a wake-up call for China. Their hands-off policies in many foreign affairs do not serve them well (Sudan is one example).
QuoteIn both Xinjiang and Tibet, you will find a majority of Hans (which have been sent by the communist in the 60's, 70's and 80's to dilute the local population). Unfortunately, you know find yourself with a situation where there are 2nd and 3rd generation of Hans who are Tibetans and XinJiang"ese". And they represent the majority of the population. Should there be indeed a free referendum in these provinces, the (Han) majority would probably vote to stay within China. Now, the question is how do you address this problem?
Freeing Tibet is not a clear solution unfortunately. Political reform is the next step after all the economic growth, but that is not congruent with the communists.
QuoteMax, would you support independence for the Kurds in Iraq? The Basques in Spain? The Chechnyans? Would you support a policy of ethnic cleansing against the Hans in order to return the land to the original local tribes?
The Kurds had their own country of "Mosul" predating WWI. The Basques negotiated their own agreements with Spain following General Franco's departure. Chechnya's history is so muddled, I don't know enough to form an educated idea.
I do not support "ethnic cleansing". I won't stray too far off of China for this thread. The examples you brought up are distinctive in their own rights, and are not good comparisons in my view. Iraq's invasion of Kuwait almost seems a better comparison.
QuoteUnless you answer YES to all of the above, then you can start grasping the complexity of the situation in China.
It is complex by design, not circumstance. There is no clear ethnic claim that China can make for Tibet. I don't know enough about Xinjiang, but their lineage seems to be better connected with China (?).
QuoteBut I also believe that most calling for a "Free Tibet" (unlike the Dalai Lama himself) do it without having a clue of what the situation is in Tibet and China.
I believe you are correct.
So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!
algboy 0
QuoteQuoteI find the whole torch/Tibet protest thinggie utterly ludicrous.
The Olympics have become ludicrous. A massive money-making exercise to see whose performance enhancing drugs are best at going undetected.
Yeah, where's the WWE this year? And don't forget Texas Hold'em--perhaps Olympic NASCAR and hotdog eating? What a carny ride/freak show the olympics has become.
IMO anyone who pisses into the Chinese punchbowl is a friend of mine. Piss away my Tibetan friends!
The Authoritarian Personality types are showing their colors with their disdain at the protests. Of course there are no cries of outrage at the blue tracksuited torch escort goons from China that London authorities let kick ass on protesters in London.
So . . . let us sit down like civilized chaps and write letters expressing our "strong disapproval" to the nearest Chinese embassy. Cucumber sandwich, love? Bollocks biscuit, perchance??
tbrown 26
QuoteWherever that torch goes there will be protests, and rightly so. China should have never been rewarded with the Olympics.
Plus, it's hilarious to see people chasing the torch with fire extinguishers!
The IOC are a bunch of self congratulating dolts who can't even see the value of restricting the Olympics to DEMOCRACIES, which now constitute, to one degree or another, something like 2/3 of the world's governments.
Can't wait to see what the SF/Berkeley rads will do either. They've got their REPUTATION at stake, especially after London & Paris. Up by the Bay, everything the rads do has to make noise or stink, because they KNOW they're right....
Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !
Gawain 0
QuoteQuoteWherever that torch goes there will be protests, and rightly so. China should have never been rewarded with the Olympics.
Plus, it's hilarious to see people chasing the torch with fire extinguishers!
The IOC are a bunch of self congratulating dolts who can't even see the value of restricting the Olympics to DEMOCRACIES, which now constitute, to one degree or another, something like 2/3 of the world's governments.
Can't wait to see what the SF/Berkeley rads will do either. They've got their REPUTATION at stake, especially after London & Paris. Up by the Bay, everything the rads do has to make noise or stink, because they KNOW they're right....
They changed and cut the route short by about half and retired the torch without much of a ceremony according to the news report I just heard.
So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!
Quote
The IOC are a bunch of self congratulating dolts who can't even see the value of restricting the Olympics to DEMOCRACIES, which now constitute, to one degree or another, something like 2/3 of the world's governments.
We tried that in 1984. Valueless.
Quote
Can't wait to see what the SF/Berkeley rads will do either. They've got their REPUTATION at stake, especially after London & Paris. Up by the Bay, everything the rads do has to make noise or stink, because they KNOW they're right....
They at least knew when it was happening. It's already on a plane to Argentina.
BTW, there's no shortage of Chinese people here who came out to support the Olympics, even though it's in the country they left. Though the radical change of the torch route prevented any activity there, the two sides were fighting all day.
QuoteThe IOC are a bunch of self congratulating dolts
Utah got 2002 Winter Games thanks, in no small part, to the large number of high grade whores and large sums of bribe money.
It certainly leads one to wonder how much "hospitality" China showed to the IOC members.
My wife is hotter than your wife.
Andy9o8 0
I say good for the protestors. It's not like China would allow any significant protest to occur on their own soil; thus the perceived need to protest at the only meaningful Olympic event occurring on non-Chinese soil: the torch relay. I hope the Chinese are good and humiliated by this: " Fuckers. No business-as-usual for you."
That being said, the problem with protesting the Chinese is, it's unsatisfying: a half-hour after you've protested, you feel the need to protest all over again.
That being said, the problem with protesting the Chinese is, it's unsatisfying: a half-hour after you've protested, you feel the need to protest all over again.
QuoteI say good for the protestors. It's not like China would allow any significant protest to occur on their own soil; thus the perceived need to protest at the only meaningful Olympic event occurring on non-Chinese soil: the torch relay. I hope the Chinese are good and humiliated by this: " Fuckers. No business-as-usual for you."
That being said, the problem with protesting the Chinese is, it's unsatisfying: a half-hour after you've protested, you feel the need to protest all over again.
Wow! Let's like, throw rocks at a guy carrying a stick on fire. That's show them goons we mean business!
The whole Olympic Flame/Tibet thing has turned into a purely Western Democracies internal issue, which now has little to nothing to do with the Chinese regime or Tibet. I find it myself quite entertaining.
Now, you'll excuse me, but I have to go and help fix the pollution issue by spitting on an SUV.
"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."
Andy9o8 0
QuoteLet's like, throw rocks at a guy carrying a stick on fire.
Tough shit. Sacrifices have to be made.
Besides, of all people, the Chinese should understand that it's a dog-eat-dog world. (Or is that the Vietnamese? I forget.)
QuoteQuoteLet's like, throw rocks at a guy carrying a stick on fire.
Tough shit. Sacrifices have to be made.
Besides, of all people, the Chinese should understand that it's a dog-eat-dog world. (Or is that the Vietnamese? I forget.)
I suppose that works if the people making the sacrifices were members of China's communist party. However, that's not true, is it?
It's always easier to let others make the sacrifices than to do it oneself.
QuoteQuoteLet's like, throw rocks at a guy carrying a stick on fire.
Tough shit. Sacrifices have to be made.
Besides, of all people, the Chinese should understand that it's a dog-eat-dog world. (Or is that the Vietnamese? I forget.)
All I'm saying is that people should grow balls and put their money where their mouth is. Stop buying Chinese goods. Make a statement with your wallet, showing you are willing to make the sacrifice. But that won't happen. instead, we'll shout at some bloke running with a torch, and head right back to the bar to mouth off to the friends on how rad we are in our political involvement.
Talk, talk, talk...
"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."
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