Prince Harry fighting the Taleban

[freethefly 6]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Bush at least was in a position where he could have been sent.

The 102's were sent back to the US in 68, the same year that Bush joined the ANG. There was no chance that his squadron was going to Vietnam.

The Air Force started to pull F-102s out of southeast Asia in December 1969 and finished in May 1971.
Bush finished his combat crew training on the 102 in June 1970.

Different sites have conflicting info but the fact is the 102's were being phased out and the chance of him being deployed were zero. Also, it wasn't as dangerous as a plane as you keep making it out to be. Although, no jet would be an easy task the 102's had an extremely good record for safety.
Do you really believe the military would train its pilots in the worst plane they could get?
From: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/f-102a.htm

Phaseout occured from 1961-1973. The F-102A replaced the F-46D as the most numerous interceptor and by the end of 1958 they numbered 627, or about half the total number of interceptors controlled by ADC. The F-102A began to leave the air defense system with the receipt of the F-101B and F-106A, but in mid 1961 there were still 221 of these aircraft available within ADC. Toward the end of 1969, when except for one squadron maintained in Iceland, all F-102s of the Air Defense Command had been transferred to the Air National Guard, the Air Force still retained a few oversea F-102 squadrons. Two were in the Pacific theater, three in Germany and one in the Netherlands. However, the F-102 squadrons stationed in Europe were being reequipped with newer, more versatile F-4s and the F-102A's Pacific commitments were coming to an end. In mid 1972, only 17 F-102s (15 F-102As and 2 TF-102As) remained in the operational inventory of the Air Force and 69 F-102s were surplus. By 30 June 1973 the number of active USAF F-102s had been reduced to 10. Meanwhile, the F-102A had become an important asset of the Air National Guard. After receiving in 1960 an initial contingent of seven F-102As, the ANG's operational inventory of F-102As grew quickly. It jumped to 130 F-102s in 1961 and in mid 1966 reached 339 (311 F-102As and 28 TF-102As), a total that remained fairly constant in the ensuing years. In mid 1972, the ANG operational inventory of F-102s was down to 206 (181 F-102As and 25 TF-102As), but a USAF allocation of surplus F-102s had boosted this total to 224 by 30 June 1973.

The F-102A's overall safety record (including all SEA losses) was also impressive. In more than 14 years of operation, only 16 percent of the F-102A total force, or less than 140 aircraft were lost in flying accidents. A minimal number of ground accidents occurred, bringing total F-102A operational losses to 141 as of 30 June 1971.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[rickjump1 0]

Quote

You are pointing out things that happened AFTER he came home and there you are doing the same god damn thing.....but you are slamming his service.. and that is something the men on his boat... have not done... I would say THEY are the ones who knew him under fire.

How do you justify all the FAKE Patriots in the right wing who ran like hell from ever serving... ????

nope.. no hypocrisy there

WASHINGTON ? In a letter to television station managers they hope to convince to air their blistering 60-second commercial opposing John Kerry for president, the Swift Boat Vets for Truth reveal new details of their politically sizzling charges against the candidate who made his war experience the cornerstone of his convention acceptance speech.
Attempting to bolster their accusations that Kerry misrepresented slight injuries to win Purple Hearts and a Bronze Star, the vets cite a March 13, 1969, incident for which the young lieutenant was decorated.

Two injuries ? a small bruise on his right arm and a minor injury to his buttocks ? won Kerry his Third Purple Heart and a trip home. However, the vets say, the wound to his buttocks was self-inflicted and should never have received Purple Heart consideration.

While Kerry claims the injury came from shrapnel from an underwater mine, Larry Thurlow, an officer on shore with Kerry that day, insists the wound was the result of Kerry's decision to throw a concussion grenade into a rice pile. The "shrapnel," he says, was actually rice pellets.

As further evidence, the vets say, Kerry himself reflected in his own journal that his buttocks' wound came, not from a mine but, rather, from a grenade tossed into a rice cache.

Sworn statements of those present say there was no hostile fire involved in this incident for which Kerry received his third Purple Heart and the coveted Bronze Star.

"The conclusion is inescapable: that Kerry lied by reporting to the Navy that he had been wounded by shrapnel in his backside from an enemy mine when in reality he negligently wounded himself and then lied about the wound in order to secure a third Purple Heart and a quick trip home," reads the letter.

The letter continues: "Kerry's operating report, Bronze Star story, and subsequent 'no man left behind' story are a total hoax on the Navy and the nation," they say.

As to the daring rescue discussed in the documentary video shown to the nation at the Democratic convention, the vets say the rescue was well underway under the leadership of others when Kerry returned to the scene where Special Forces soldier Jim Rassman was plucked out of the water. Eyewitnesses have signed affidavits explaining when Kerry returned, there was no more hostile fire. He just merely leaned over the boat and assisted Rassman out of the water.

"Kerry's account of this action, which was used to secure the Bronze Star and a third Purple Heart, is an extraordinary example of fraud," they say.

The letter also recounts the incident that occurred Dec. 2, 1968, that led to Kerry receiving his first Purple Heart.

Once again, the vets insist there was no hostile fire involved, and, again, they say, Kerry's very minor wound was self-inflicted.

According to the vets' account, Kerry, Navy Lt. William Schachte, and an enlisted man were on a whaler.

"Seeing movement from an unknown source, the sailors opened fire on the movement," the letter says. "There was no hostile fire. When Kerry's rifle jammed, he picked up an M-79 grenade launcher and fired a grenade at a nearby object. This sprayed the boat with shrapnel from Kerry's own grenade, a tiny piece of which embedded in Kerry's arm."

Upon examining Kerry's injury, Dr. Lewis Letson says he asked Kerry why he was there.

Kerry reportedly told him he had been wounded by hostile fire. Letson removed the tiny fragment with tweezers and placed a Band-Aid over the scratch.

The next morning, Kerry went to see Division Commander Grant Hibbard to ask for the Purple Heart. Hibbard had already spoken to Schachte and conducted an investigation. Hibbard's investigation revealed that Kerry's "rose thorn" scratch had been self-inflicted in the absence of hostile fire. Hibbard denied the award.

Some three months later, Kerry managed to obtain his first Purple Heart from an officer with no connection to Coastal Division 14 or knowledge of the Dec. 2, 1968, event, they say.

"All normal documentation supporting a Purple Heart is missing," the letter says. "There is absolutely no casualty report (i.e., spot report) or hostile fire report or after-action report in the Navy's files to support this 'Purple Heart' because there was no casualty, hostile fire, or action on which to report. The sole document relied upon by Kerry is a record showing the band aid and tweezers treatment by Dr. Letson recorded by deceased corpsman, Jess Carreon.

"There are no witnesses who claim to have seen hostile fire ? necessary for a Purple Heart (even a rose thorn Purple Heart) ? that day. At least three witnesses, Dr. Letson (who spoke to the participants and removed the M-79 fragment), Lt. Bill Schachte (on the boat), and Cmdr. Grant Hibbard (whose investigation revealed Kerry's application for a Purple Heart to be fraudulent), are able to testify directly or based upon contemporaneous investigation that Kerry's first Purple Heart was a fraud," says the letter.

Swift Boat Vets for Truth claims a membership of 254 sailors from Coastal Squadron One, ranging from vice admirals to seamen. They claim 16 of the 23 surviving officers who served with Kerry in swift boats in Vietnam and who could be found have joined.


Related offer:


"Unfit for Command: Swift Boat Veterans Speak Out Against John Kerry"



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Maybe you should defend General Custer. Wasn't he a democrat?

Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts.

[rickjump1 0]

The F100 Super Saber did it's fair share of tactical air support when things got tough. I believe it was originally designed to drop a nuke and ended up dropping conventional ordinance in Vietnam. That and the A1E Sky Raider got a good workout in support of troops in contact. The Vietnamese had quite a few A1E's. The A1E could carry it's weight in ordinance and stay on station forever if their was no AA threat.

Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts.

[Amazon 7]

SHAME on you

Here is the TRUTH about your favorite organization..

http://www.truthout.org/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/64/22625

Wednesday 20 September 2006

The Swift Boat Veterans for the Truth were back in the news last week, brought up by Massachusetts senator and former presidential candidate John Kerry. Asked in an interview with the Examiner about the effect of the Swift Boat group on his campaign, Kerry was blunt.

"Kerry says the only reason he didn't compete in more states in 2004," read the article, "was that he ran out of money. He says this was also the reason he did not adequately respond to a series of devastating TV ads by Swift Boat Veterans for the Truth, a group that questioned Kerry's service in Vietnam and criticized his later opposition to the war. 'They had money behind the lies, and we did not have sufficient money behind the truth,' Kerry laments."

It all sounds like something from the dim and distant past, but in fact, the Swiftboaters are still out in force today. More specifically, the money behind the Swiftboaters is out in force, attempting to swing close elections in several states over to the GOP.

A 527 organization called the Economic Freedom Fund (EFF) has been formed in California to do just that. According to its FEC filing, the Economic Freedom Fund was formed to "promote policies and issues favoring economic freedom, growth and prosperity of the economy." The group's sole donor is a man named Bob J. Perry from Texas. Recently, Perry gave $5 million to the EFF, one of the largest single donations to any 527 organization this year, an amount that exceeds the $4.5 million Perry gave to the Swift Boat Veterans in 2004.

In short, Mr. Perry was the main force behind the Swift Boat Veterans, and is today the main force behind the Economic Freedom Fund. The EFF just made the largest media buy to date in a close Iowa race, to the tune of $446,850, for ads seeking to undercut Democratic incumbent Leonard Boswell. Huge expenditures by EFF for television ads, direct mailings and robo-calls have also been made to affect races in Georgia, West Virginia and Indiana.

This time, however, the Swiftboaters are not going unanswered. James Boyce, a fifteen-year marketing and advertising veteran who served as a senior advisor to Kerry's presidential campaign, has organized a watchdog group called The Patriot Project. Its mission, according to Boyce, is to "defend any man or woman, regardless of party or affiliation, who is attacked or defamed and whose patriotism is questioned simply because they exercise their rights as Americans. The primary way we do this is to expose and make transparent front groups so that voters who hear their advertising and charges can make an informed decision about those claims.

I asked Mr. Boyce what Perry and the EFF are trying to promote with all this spending. "I'm not sure what they're really trying to promote," said Boyce, "but I can promise you that it has precious little to do with either the economy or freedom. What everyone needs to be aware of is that this is a classic right wing 527 front group, nothing more, nothing less. In this case, a very wealthy Republican donor has given an enormous sum of money to a prominent Republican lawyer who is running a 527 out of his law office. There is one donor, one contact for EFF listed in the filing documents and $5,000,000 in the bank."

"Bob Perry is a wealthy Texas Republican donor," continued Boyce, "who invests heavily in Republican candidates and causes. He runs Perry Homes, is one of the top ten political donors in the country, and has been reported, by many sources, to be a good friend of Karl Rove's. Mr. Perry can speak to his motivations but it's been my experience that successful businessmen don't invest a penny without an expectation of a positive return on their investments."

"Public records show that not only was Mr. Perry an early donor to the Swift Boat Veterans For Truth," continued Boyce, "giving $100,000 on June 30, 2004, well before they launched their public efforts that August, but that he also gave $1,000,000 on October 18, 2004, to fund the final advertising push against Senator Kerry. Mr. Perry gave the Swift Boat Veterans $4,450,000 in total in less than four months and was one of three men who essentially funded the Swift Boat attacks. Bob Perry, T. Boone Pickens and Harold Simmons gave the Swift Boaters close to $10,000,000. This is a core fact of right wing front groups. They are not grassroots movements but political operations funded by a small group of very wealthy donors for political gain."

Mr. Perry and the EFF do not appear to be operating wholly in the shadows this time around. The attorney general of Indiana has sued EFF to stop automated telephone calls funded by EFF that are targeting Democratic candidate Baron Hill in the 9th District congressional race.

"The attorney general's office filed a lawsuit in Brown Circuit Court in Nashville seeking temporary and permanent injunctions against the calls as violations of Indiana's telemarketing law and fines of $5,000 for each violation," according to a report by the Associated Press. "A hearing in the case is set for September 27. Attorney General Steve Carter received 12 consumer complaints over the calls, including one from Philip Wilkinson, 41, of Bloomington, who said he was on the state's do-not-call list and is offended by negative political ads."

This is heartening, but Perry and EFF are still making significant waves in several important races. "Let the voter beware," warns Boyce. "At the Patriot Project, we firmly believe that freedom of speech is a cornerstone of our democracy, but we also believe that it's pretty important you know who it is you're actually speaking to. I think the surge of skepticism regarding this group is very encouraging. People are really starting to wonder where these groups come from, who's behind them and what their true goals really are. I think that's a great sign, and we're certainly doing everything we can to aid that process."

[kallend 1,635]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Quote

Quote

I never said you were a chickenhawk. I never even suggested it. In fact, i would argue against it since I am familiar with your posts here against the conflict in Iraq.
As far as what i think you should have been doing....That was up to you. But if you didn't serve in any way, shape, or form then you have no standing to call Bush a coward for flying in the Guard. It was, as i said, far more military service than you.

CHICKENHAWK, dear. CHICKENHAWK. Which is exactly what he is.

I never said he wasn't. Pay attention and you would know that.

Pay attention? Irony score 10/10.

I challenge you to find a post I've made in the past 6 years where I called Bush a "coward".

However, it's good to know that you consider Bush a CHICKENHAWK too.

You also get an irony score of 10/10. I will answer your challenge the same way you answered mine in another thread...I will ignore it.

Don't have much option, do you, since there are no such posts.

Your admitting that Bush is a chickenhawk IS a sign of progress. There was never any dispute about Cheney, of course.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[mnealtx 0]

So, all the people that are calling "chickenhawk" that haven't been to war themselves....what does that make them... chickenchickens?

Of course, there's still that disparity in Congress, too... you know, that inconvenient fact that there are more REPUBLICAN Congresscritters that are veterans.....

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[mnealtx 0]

Quote

Iraq... is a NeoCon scheme to enrich themselves at any cost by trumping up a bogus enemy so they can give out as many no bid contracts to their friends to fleece the American people.....

Sorry, Boeing is in Clinton's pocket, not Bush's...

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[shropshire 0]

Anyway after all the shite about 'merican no-mark politicians - back to the Lad - He's just come home from doing a [repordidly] good job of work and welcomed by his family - good on 'im!! and it's done his standing [PR] no harm what's so ever.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[KelliJ 0]

Quote

Don't have much option, do you, since there are no such posts.

Same as you.

Quote

Your admitting that Bush is a chickenhawk IS a sign of progress.

My thoughts of him are the same today as they were a week ago. So, in that respect, no progress has been made on your part.
Of course, you could be one who thinks everyone should follow his lead...
"We've taken care of everything
the words you read, the songs you sing,
the pictures that give pleasure to your eye"

[kallend 1,635]

Quote

So, all the people that are calling "chickenhawk" that haven't been to war themselves....what does that make them... chickenchickens?

Of course, there's still that disparity in Congress, too... you know, that inconvenient fact that there are more REPUBLICAN Congresscritters that are veterans.....

Please pay attention.

It's AVOIDING combat service oneself that defines the chicken. Like having "other priorities" when 1A for the draft. So the chickenhawk is a hypocrisy thing. You know, like expressing moral outrage at gays while having gay sex in an airport restroom, or chairing a congressional committee on child abuse while abusing your interns.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[KelliJ 0]

So you agree then that William Jefferson Clinton was/is a chickenhawk?

[kallend 1,635]

Quote

So you agree then that William Jefferson Clinton was/is a chickenhawk?

No. I don't think he qualifies on the HAWK part. He didn't proclaim "I want to be a war president".

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[KelliJ 0]

Quote

Quote

So you agree then that William Jefferson Clinton was/is a chickenhawk?

No. I don't think he qualifies on the HAWK part. He didn't proclaim "I want to be a war president".

No, he didn't say those exact words but he did send troops to Bosnia. And Haiti. And, instead of pulling forces out of Somalia, he sent thousands more.
He also, by his OWN ADMISSION, actively evaded the draft. You can only exclude Clinton from chickenhawk status by changing the definition to suit his situation.

[kallend 1,635]

Quote

Quote

Quote

So you agree then that William Jefferson Clinton was/is a chickenhawk?

No. I don't think he qualifies on the HAWK part. He didn't proclaim "I want to be a war president".

No, he didn't say those exact words but he did send troops to Bosnia. And Haiti. And, instead of pulling forces out of Somalia, he sent thousands more.
He also, by his OWN ADMISSION, actively evaded the draft. You can only exclude Clinton from chickenhawk status by changing the definition to suit his situation.

Clinton wasn't a HAWK in the accepted sense of the word. He wasn't a pacifist either, but the world isn't divided into hawks and pacifists.

CHICKEN, OK.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[KelliJ 0]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Quote

So you agree then that William Jefferson Clinton was/is a chickenhawk?

No. I don't think he qualifies on the HAWK part. He didn't proclaim "I want to be a war president".

No, he didn't say those exact words but he did send troops to Bosnia. And Haiti. And, instead of pulling forces out of Somalia, he sent thousands more.
He also, by his OWN ADMISSION, actively evaded the draft. You can only exclude Clinton from chickenhawk status by changing the definition to suit his situation.

Clinton wasn't a HAWK in the accepted sense of the word. He wasn't a pacifist either, but the world isn't divided into hawks and pacifists.

CHICKEN, OK.

Ok, so you are changing the definition.
Nice.

[Lindsey 0]

I was telling my son the other day that he'd "argue with a sign post." Looks like he's not the only one.

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[Amazon 7]

[kallend 1,635]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Quote

Quote

So you agree then that William Jefferson Clinton was/is a chickenhawk?

No. I don't think he qualifies on the HAWK part. He didn't proclaim "I want to be a war president".

No, he didn't say those exact words but he did send troops to Bosnia. And Haiti. And, instead of pulling forces out of Somalia, he sent thousands more.
He also, by his OWN ADMISSION, actively evaded the draft. You can only exclude Clinton from chickenhawk status by changing the definition to suit his situation.

Clinton wasn't a HAWK in the accepted sense of the word. He wasn't a pacifist either, but the world isn't divided into hawks and pacifists.

CHICKEN, OK.

Ok, so you are changing the definition.
Nice.

No, you are. A "Hawk" is not just anyone who is not a pacifist.

No-one would call me a hawk, but I agreed with the 2001 attack on the Taliban. It's a pity the incompetent CinC lost focus and got distracted by an unnecessary Hawk driven war in Iraq, for which he had to make a case by misrepresenting the intelligence.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rickjump1 0]

Quote

Anyway after all the shite about 'merican no-mark politicians - back to the Lad - He's just come home from doing a [repordidly] good job of work and welcomed by his family - good on 'im!! and it's done his standing [PR] no harm what's so ever.

Sorry we got a little off topic. God Bless Harry and the Royal Family. Hope Harry's service will not float over too many heads on this side of the Atlantic.

Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts.

[KelliJ 0]

Just in case you missed it, here again is the definition of "chickenhawk" as posted by Amazon and linked via another forum to Wikipedia. Merriam-Webster only lists definitions for a bird and for a sexual predator, neither of which I'm sure you would accuse either Clinton or Bush of being.

Quote

Chickenhawk (also chicken hawk and chicken-hawk; sometimes designated after a person's name by [c.h.]) is a political epithet used in the United States to criticize a politician, bureaucrat, or commentator who strongly supports a war or other military action, but has never personally been in a war, especially if that person actively avoided military service when of draft age.

Clinton did actively avoid military service, Bush did not since he did serve in the National Guard. The definition doesn't distinguish between combat service and non-combat service.
We all agree that Bush strongly supports his own military actions. No argument there.
Clinton also strongly supported his sending troops to Bosnia and Haiti. That is a matter of historical record.
As you see, Kallend, I have not changed the definition, you have.

[KelliJ 0]

Quote

Quote

Anyway after all the shite about 'merican no-mark politicians - back to the Lad - He's just come home from doing a [repordidly] good job of work and welcomed by his family - good on 'im!! and it's done his standing [PR] no harm what's so ever.

Sorry we got a little off topic. God Bless Harry and the Royal Family. Hope Harry's service will not float over too many heads on this side of the Atlantic.

Harry has my eternal respect. Too bad he is only third in line (I think) to the throne.

[kallend 1,635]

Quote

Just in case you missed it, here again is the definition of "chickenhawk" as posted by Amazon and linked via another forum to Wikipedia. Merriam-Webster only lists definitions for a bird and for a sexual predator, neither of which I'm sure you would accuse either Clinton or Bush of being.

Quote

Chickenhawk (also chicken hawk and chicken-hawk; sometimes designated after a person's name by [c.h.]) is a political epithet used in the United States to criticize a politician, bureaucrat, or commentator who strongly supports a war or other military action, but has never personally been in a war, especially if that person actively avoided military service when of draft age.

Clinton did actively avoid military service, Bush did not since he did serve in the National Guard. The definition doesn't distinguish between combat service and non-combat service.
We all agree that Bush strongly supports his own military actions. No argument there.
Clinton also strongly supported his sending troops to Bosnia and Haiti. That is a matter of historical record.
As you see, Kallend, I have not changed the definition, you have.

If it pleases you.

According to you, I am a hawk since I thought defeating Japan was an appropriate response to Pearl Harbor. I think all my friends would be very surprised to hear that I am a hawk, though.

Could be that Wiki is wrong (again). After all, there is almost no-one in the USA who opposes military action under ANY and ALL circumstances. According to you, we're pretty much all "hawks", which makes the definition useless.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Ripple 0]

Quote

God Bless Harry and the Royal Family.

Lets not go too far

Next Mood Swing: 6 minutes

[shropshire 0]

Quote

Quote

God Bless Harry and the Royal Family.

Lets not go too far

That's O.K this is Speakers Corner..... You're allowed to believe in god in here

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[KelliJ 0]

If you feel Wiki is wrong then, by all means, change it. But for now that was the definition that was posted here (by someone other than myself) for purposes of discussion. If you can find another definition by an objective source then post it.

(You have friends?)