President of the Mormon Church passed away

[Unstable 9]

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So what? You can't prove there isn't a Goblin standing on my shoulder calling you a girls name, doesn't mean the probability of it existing is 50%.

Methinks that many people are running around comparing apples to Oranges. AWL71 has a strong faith in something he believes to be true. He can't prove it to you or to anyone else - hence faith comes in. This horse has been ridden from here to China, and you just need to respect his faith, as he needs to respect your beliefs as well. Saying a belief is silly is awfully childish, even for SC. Disagree, but don't' be disrespectful. No amount of post whoring in the world can convince either party that he/she is wrong.

=========Shaun ==========

[jakee 1,379]

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AWL71 has a strong faith in something he believes to be true.

Faith, and no evidence.

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and you just need to respect his faith,

No I don't.

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Saying a belief is silly is awfully childish

No it isn't.

How respectful and accepting would you be if someone you knew was going to drink the Kool-aid and catch a ride on a comet? Some things are just dumb - even when they concern divinities.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Unstable 9]

I guess getting this thread back on track, I found a really nice, semi-neutral obituary on him from the Salt Lake Tribune. I'm sure you could find more Pro-Mormon or Anti-Mormon obituaries out there, but I think this one may give everyone an idea as to why the LDS community thought so highly of their leader of 12-13 years.

Gordon B. Hinckley Obituary


Here are some exerpts I though were nice things to say about him and his efforts in helping those around him...

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He began his career in the 1930s as a missionary defending the faith on a soapbox in London's Hyde Park and lived to see the country's first viable Mormon candidate for president. Through it all, Hinckley worked tirelessly to gain acceptance for his church on the world's stage.
"We are not a weird people," Hinckley told Mike Wallace in a 1995 "60 Minutes" interview.

With the shrewdness of a politician, Hinckley downplayed the more controversial aspects of LDS history. He welcomed the world to Utah for the 2002 Olympic Winter Games, promising everyone could get a drink here and accepted one of America's highest honors - the Presidential Medal of Freedom.
He highlighted Mormon commonality with other Christians, forging alliances with other faith groups while scolding LDS Church members for being too clannish, self-righteous and
Gordon B. Hinckley 1910-2008
unfriendly to their neighbors.
"This church has grown into a great worldwide organization affecting for good the lives of people in more than 140 nations," Hinckley told The New York Times in 1995. "You can't, you don't, build out of pessimism or cynicism. You look with optimism, work with faith, and things happen."

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On the home front: Though he was constantly looking beyond the Wasatch Mountains, Hinckley never lost sight of the importance of Salt Lake City as the church's headquarters. He built goodwill by opening the Tabernacle on Temple Square to interfaith groups, by creating an Inner City Mission to help people find their way out of poverty, illness and addiction, and by contributing to the restoration of the Catholic Cathedral of the Madeleine and Westminster College of Salt Lake City.
In February 2004, as his wife Marjorie lay dying, Hinckley's secretary called homeless advocate Pamela Atkinson to say the president "was very concerned with the very cold weather we were having." He wondered how they were managing and wanted to give some of his own money to Atkinson to help them, Atkinson said.
"That was the third time Hinckley did this," she recalled. "Here's a man who is a leader of a worldwide church, his wife is not well, and he thinks about homeless people and how he can help. I was taken aback and in awe."
For all his sensitivity to outsiders, though, Hinckley sometimes charged ahead without anticipating the anger his actions might generate.

He was a very good man. I had the chance to meet him on a number of occasions, and I know his grandchildren and great-grandchildren in Missouri well. He tried and worked hard his whole life to build bridges, and find more commonalities with our faith and others. He had a good heart, and we are sad for his passing.

Edited to fix the URL link.

=========Shaun ==========

[DSE 5]

There is nothing wrong with faith. If it sustains one in times of need, if it supports the inexplicable, or if it salves the fear from contemplation of death...terrific.

However;
Believing in "golden plates" that only one human ever claims to have seen, whose mother tells stories in her journals of his "fantasies and mesmerizing imagination" as a young boy...who was also a gold-digger, and treasure hunter...who later was convicted of fraud on numerous occasions, who was known to have had many sexual relations with very young girls ie; 13-15 year olds even after he was married, who also claims to have powers beyond anyone on this planet....
To believe these rituals that J. Smith claims were revealed only to him specifically from God, when in truth, they're variations of the Masonic rites (and Smith was a member of the Masons); accepting a book that is quite obviously a plagiarized piece of work from at least two different books published 15 years prior to the "Book of Mormon"; to believe the stories of the "Lamanites" being directly from Israel but DNA has now proven this to be absolutely false, thus forcing a change in the wording of the Book of Mormon...are all but a few of the exceptionally questionable LDS beliefs.
Then the Church taught for years that Polynesians were direct descendents of Israelites. The Church even brought hundreds of Polynesians to Utah to see if they could till the soil of the desert, and attempted to create a community of Polynesians in the Skull Valley desert, known as Iosepa (Joseph in Hawaiian). Hundreds of Polynesians died in the first winter. DNA has recently proven that Polynesians are of Asian/Taiwanese descent, not Israeli.
Add to that the Book of Mormon purportedly being a "History of the Americas..." Hmm....Horses, pheasants, and other creatures were here 600BC but left no archeological evidence, and then miraculously disappeared for a 1000 years and then returned?
A great war in which hundreds of thousands died, but there is no archeological evidence of any kind to support this fantasy? The church has more recently tried to explain that the battle that for over a century was believed to have been fought near the Hill Cumorah near Palmyra, NY, was really fought in Central America. Oops, archeology proves that concept wrong too. And besides, how did the golden plates get from Central America to be placed beneath a rock near Palmyra, NY? God carried them there? Why Palmyra, of all places?

What about the belief that African/black people are inferior in origin?

That Satan is Jesus literal brother/same mother and father?

Then there is the ceremonies for the Dead. Missionaries, members of the church, everybody together now...come up with names of dead people and we'll baptize them. This is a way to get hundreds of little girls and boys (OK, teens to be accurate) to go into the baptismal fonts beneath the temple and be baptized in the names of dead people. Kids brag about how many names they did. "I was baptized for 130 people" and they're proud, because they got dunked 130 times. People like Charles Shulz (Peanuts Cartoonist) Adolf Hitler, Pope John Paul (Seriously, most of the Popes have been baptized for the dead), hundreds of thousands of Jews...(The LDS church agreed to quit baptizing Jews killed in the Holocaust, but were later caught doing it anyway, prompting several lawsuits. The practice has allegedly again, been stopped).
Outside of the Intermountain region, the religion is somewhat mainstream, even if the foundational beliefs are somewhat unique? People are normal, and might even occasionally be seen drinking a beer or something (unless it's my exwife, who happens to be a seminary teacher).
In Utah, it's debatably the most repressive society in the USA. Remember, Utah still supports George Bush at the highest rating in the USA.
There are some good things that should be mentioned.
Mormons teach:
Food storage for at least 90 days of survival, for when the cataclysm comes.
Family values. OK, Utah has one of the highest divorce, suicide, prescription drug abuse, icecream consumption, and poor health statistics in the US, but those families that *do* stay together...stay together.
Abstinence from smoking, drinking, sex outside of marriage...
Tolerance for your fellow man (unless he's not Mormon) Gordon Hinckley was the king of "Be tolerant." He admonished Mormons "to learn to be tolerant of others." My response at the time was "Screw you, I don't want to be 'tolerated' but rather 'accepted.'"
Famous Mormons include Gladys Knight, Glenn Beck, Donny Osmond, Billy Casper, Larry King's wife, Steve Young, Billy Barty...Mormons claim that Wilford Brimley is Mormon, but as his neighbor...he's about as Mormon as I am.

There is a humorous story about the ceremonies for the dead...
If people are baptized for the dead, what if they've been screwing off in heaven, or discovered to have been messing up here on earth?

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AP Salt Lake City

Gordon B. Hinckley announced today that effective immediately the Church would start conducting Disciplinary Councils for the dead. I met with President Hinckley and asked him exactly what that means. Are they going to excommunicate dead people or disfellowship them? Is that even possible?

"Yes, I know that it might seem a little bit weird to be hold 'Courts of Love' for those who are on the other side of the veil, however, many of of our members submit names of their deceased ancestors without even checking out the history of these people. The Church on both sides of the veil needs to be kept clean and pure from those who are not 'celestial' material." Hinckley said.

"But I thought that those who hadn't heard the gospel while they were alive in this life would be able to hear it in the next life and then they would be forgiven for their sins and all would be fine with them." I said.

"Well that's not how it works. These people would have had to live good upstanding LDS lives in order for that to happen..." Hinckley said.

"But but...these people didn't even know LDS doctrine when they were alive, how can they be judged according to that?" I asked.

"Well, here's how it will work. Let's say that your great grandfather John had never heard the gospel before..."

"Yea.."

"And he cheated on your great grandmother and was a womanizer. You submit the temple name, but you probably didn't do enough research to know that." Hinckley said.

"Okay, and..." I said.

"Now he has had all the ordinances and now been sealed to your great grandmother, but he cheated on her in this life. If he had been alive in this life, he would have received a disciplinary council to find out his true repentance. This gives him a chance to repent of this sin by proxy."

"So how exactly is it done then?" I asked.

"Come watch."

So I followed Hinckley down the hall and under the street over into the Salt Lake Temple where they had constructed what looked like a High Council room. All the people were dressed in temple garb, so I felt a little out of place.

"Okay, we now come to the case of the adultry committed by Milton Filmore Gurmon back in 1709 with a Ms. Hally, who was a prostitute. What do you have to say for yourself Mr. Gurmon?" The person in proxy for a Stake President asked.

I looked over and saw that at the end of the table was an empty chair.

"Don't you have anything to say in your defense Brother Gurmon?" The Proxy Stake President said. "C'mon, you must have something to say in your defense! Anything?"

"Excuse me Brother Williams," another person at the table said.."On behalf of the deceased, and as one of the proxy High Council members for the defense that it was my understanding that this Ms. Hally was quite the looker and could be had at a reasonable price. Also, may I remind you all that Brother Gurmon had just had an argument with his common law wife regarding whose turn it was to clean out the latrine and she had threatened to kill his favorite goat, according to his journal."

"I would still like to hear what Brother Gurmon has to say though, but since he refuses to talk..."

"This is just crazy!" I said outloud, "There is no one in the Chair!" I protested.

"We can't know that for sure." Hinckley said, "for all we know he really is just being nonforthcoming.

"Okay then, how many of these Courts of Love have you held?" I asked.

"About 500." Hinckley said.

"And of those meetings, how many have actually had the accused say anything at all?" I again asked.

"None, but I'm sure they are just being stubborn." Hinckley said.


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One last word on the subject:
Local news is reporting that the Westboro Baptist Church (Yes, the same assholes that picket funerals of servicemen KIA...) are planning to picket the funeral of Gordon B. Hinckley.
I sure hope someone is driving down the very icy roads near temple square and their brakes fail. It would be a shame if all those picketers were taken out. After all, they will be able to be baptized into the LDS faith once they're dead.

[kallend 1,853]

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It also says you are too feeble minded to have faith in anything. It all depends how you spin it.

Well, no. What you just said doesn't even make sense. How can you be too feeble minded to believe something? Most would say that gullibillity and feeblemindedness are closer bedfellows.

It is easy to have a belief in something. A belief in God (AKA higher power, etc.) requires faith. I can't prove that God exists but I know he does. .

You don't KNOW anything of the sort. Don't confuse knowledge with faith.

Put your money where your mouth is and PROVE it.

I can't prove that God exists and more than you can prove that he doesn't exist.

I just love it when other people tell you what you can and can't believe.

The burden of proof is on those who claim something exists. You can't prove that the FSM doesn't exist, or Thor, or Odin, Zeus, Ganesh, Ra, Osiris, Hera, Aakuluujjusi, Ab Kin Zoc, Abaangui, Ac Yanto, Acan, Acat, Aclla, Acna, Acolnahuacatl, Acolmiztli, Acuecucyoticihuati, Adamisil Wedo, Adlivun, Agaman Nibo, Aguara, Agwe, Agweta, Ah Bolom Tzacab.....,

and it would be STUPID of me to expect you to, just as it is STUPID to expect me to prove that your God doesn't exist.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[moodyskydiver 0]

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I guess getting this thread back on track,

Thanks Shaun,

President Hinckley's funeral was today.

Some significant highlights of President Hinckley's life and presidency:

-He served the church as president for almost 13yrs.

-He opened the Tabernacle on Temple Square to interfaith groups.

-Over 1/3 of the members in attendance were baptized during his time as president.

-The Mormon population reached over 13million world wide during his time as president.

-During his presidency he personally dedicated 75 temples and reached the goal of seeing over 100 temples dedicated across the globe in his lifetime. *The 127th temple is to be dedicated soon.

-He traveled to over 60 different countries in his time as president.

-Over 140 nations that now claim to have members of the church.



Blue Skies and RIP President Hinckley.

"...just an earthbound misfit, I."

[mikeozone 0]

I didn't know a moderator could so openly use this forum as a podium.

If it is ok to do that, it seems to be in poor taste.

Even if you're not the one who took the pictures, what was your purpose in putting them up? I'm not LDS, but your arguments are laced with a vitrolic bias that is more disrespectful and condescending than persuasive to an audience other than those who already agree with you.

Everyone at your own dz disrespects you. Do you know why? Because you stab people in the back for your own gain. You are always ready to put under the bus the people who have helped you the most so you can look good. Everyone but the new jumpers at your dz know you will put anybody down to make yourself feel like a man. You need to earn respect, not buy it or name drop. You essentially bought your pro-rating. You already got rid of Lance because he was on your case. You got rid of Matt Wimmer because he disagreed with you. Alec and Cutter also. Who's next? Who voted for you for Skyidver of the Year? Did you buy this too or did Jack and Debbie just give it to you because you kiss their butt? You've been in the sport for a little over a year, but you have spent more money than most people who have been in the sport for 30 years. Where are you now? You are still not good. Why? There is something wrong. You are not a skydiver. If you hurt someone, you will be over. Everyone is watching you there. People do not accept you as a teacher or someone to help their students because you think you are better than you really are.

[moodyskydiver 0]

um..your post could be construed as a personal attack,which is against HH's policy.Please be mindful of what you say even if you don't like this person,moderator or not.I don't agree with everything DSE says but I'm not going to slander/libel him on a public forum.Its not worth it.

"...just an earthbound misfit, I."

[Balls 0]

Wow... What a pile of half truths. I don't feel like wasting too much of my time, so I'm only going to touch the first one.

As a former member/ex member/apostate/inactive or what ever you call yourself, you should know that JS wasn't the only person to see the plates. There were 11 other witnesses (a group of 3 then later a group of 8) who saw the place. Some of them fell away from the church for varying reasons but none of them ever denied what they saw.

I really don't feel like arguing about this. You know what they say, "arguing on the internet is like winning the special olympics, you may have won, but your still a retard." I guess we'll just have to wait till we die before we'll know for sure.

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....so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat."

[DSE 5]

Same challenge to you...what SPECIFICALLY have I said that isn't accurate?

And, you're absolutely right. We'll never know the true nature of Joseph Smith, Jesus, Bhudda, Mohammed, or any other prophet until after we're dead, so at this point, it's a meaningless argument.
At the end of the day, the best thing to say perhaps, is that if you want to know more about the LDS faith, then ask for a book of mormon. It's an easy read. Read the 1838 version as well.

In the meantime, I'll stick to being a Frisbeetarian.

[ExAFO 0]

Inks! Minks! The old witch winks, that fat beings to fry! No body home but Jumping Joan, father, mother and I! Sticks! Stocks! Stone Dead! Blind men can't see! Every knave will have a slave, you or I must be he!

Illinois needs a CCW Law. NOW.

[Balls 0]

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Inks! Minks! The old witch winks, that fat beings to fry! No body home but Jumping Joan, father, mother and I! Sticks! Stocks! Stone Dead! Blind men can't see! Every knave will have a slave, you or I must be he!

Dragonflies??? or maybe potatos?

I have no idea what your talking about.


And DSE, I have absolutly no problem with you being a frisbeetarian

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....so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat."

[skydyvr 0]

I like bologna sandwiches. But since I'm a vegetarian, I only eat flattened tofu with red food coloring added.

. . =(_8^(1)

[gitRdone 0]

Thanks for your thoughts!

President Hinckley was a great man and was honored by both members and non-members of the LDS Church. He wore out his life (97 years) doing good for others, I don't think he ever spoke ill of anyone and he reached out to all in an effort to unite people of all faiths! We could all learn from his message of unity, love, faith, education and service to others.

[ExAFO 0]

So when does the new president get the special hotline to God and Smithy-Boy so he can call himself a "Prophet?"

Illinois needs a CCW Law. NOW.

[gitRdone 0]

I'm sure I will regret this, but here goes...

No special hotline, just prayer, available to anyone!

[DSE 5]

the new president of the LDS church was named today, although there was no speculation as to who would replace Gordon Hinckley. Naming a new president, prophet, seer, and revelator was mostly a formality. You'll have to work out for yourself what that may or may not mean to where Gordon Hinckley might be. I can't say anything bad about the guy, because he was good to me as a kid, which is much more than can be said about

Additional to the calling as president of the LDS church, he also is the de facto president of the Corporation of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, the largest owner of media conglomerates in the world, and is the most prosperous religion in the world, according to Time Magazine. With approximately 32billion in physical assets/holdings, not including their corporate endeavors, tithings add another nearly 6Billion per year in revenues.

It's important to note that LDS leadership (president, counselors, apostes, seventies, etc) are not paid positions. They are given "small salaries to offset living expenses." According to the WSJ, it's around 70K per year.

The president is expected to move into the 1.8M condo at 40N State Street in SLC, not only as the official residence of the President of the church, but also for security purposes.