USA WAKE UP!

[lawrocket 3]

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I'm just arguing that the reason that the united states doesn't sign the Kyoto protocol is purely for selfish reasons.

This indicates something else may be going on.

http://unfccc.int/files/essential_background/background_publications_htmlpdf/application/pdf/ghg_table_06.pdf

Note that the Protocol was never submitted by the POTUS to the Senate. Previously, the Senate voted 95-0 in a resolution that it would not approve a treaty that was not binding or would seriously harm the US economy.

Even Al Gore said, ""As we said from the very beginning, we will not submit this agreement for ratification until key developing nations participate in this effort...This is a global problem that will require a global solution."

Ten years later, he's singing a new tune, I guess..

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[billvon 2,471]

>Or maybe we think the Kyoto isn't worth the paper it is written on. How
>much has things changed since they signed it? How much has it helped?

That's like watching someone else on a Weight Watchers diet while you eat pizza and ice cream, then complaining that Weight Watchers sucks - you didn't lose any weight!

We're the biggest emitter of CO2 on the planet. If we don't change, then the rest of the world combined won't be able to do much. If we do agree to slow down CO2 emissions, then we could get a significant reduction.

[lawrocket 3]

Accroding to what I posted, the US hadn't started going backward as of 2004. However, it HAD slowed quite a bit. While some of the European countries moved backward, others did not.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[Gawain 0]

If it were me, I would by-pass the UN Bali meeting and extend a special envoy to India and China to come up with a tri-lateral agreement to develop new technologies, reduce emissions, between the three of us, and then have the three of us own the technology to sell to the rest of the world.

UN mandates over the past 15 years have proven themselves nearly 100% ineffective.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[billvon 2,471]

> Accroding to what I posted, the US hadn't started going backward
>as of 2004. However, it HAD slowed quite a bit.

Hmm, I didn't see that in the data you posted. What I've seen is similar to the graph below, showing a pretty steady increase:

[billvon 2,471]

>If it were me, I would by-pass the UN Bali meeting and extend a special
>envoy to India and China to come up with a tri-lateral agreement to
>develop new technologies, reduce emissions, between the three of us . . .

That would be an excellent alternative, and could put a stop to much of the bickering over the subject.

Unfortunately, I think that many people's objections to Kyoto are not the (stated) details of the agreement, or what country is allowed to do what. Their underlying objection is that they don't want to do ANYTHING. Thus I think you might see the same sort of attacks that Kyoto got - whether or not it is similar.

[lawrocket 3]

Max, such a thing might actually work. The UN would likely try to impose sanctions for doing that, though.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[Gawain 0]

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>If it were me, I would by-pass the UN Bali meeting and extend a special
>envoy to India and China to come up with a tri-lateral agreement to
>develop new technologies, reduce emissions, between the three of us . . .

That would be an excellent alternative, and could put a stop to much of the bickering over the subject.

Unfortunately, I think that many people's objections to Kyoto are not the (stated) details of the agreement, or what country is allowed to do what. Their underlying objection is that they don't want to do ANYTHING. Thus I think you might see the same sort of attacks that Kyoto got - whether or not it is similar.

Well, my point was that as the three biggest consumers of the resources, we could take the lead in taking some responsible action. Also, it flips a big middle finger to all these ankle biters that are all talk and no action.

I do not favor anything that sets rules for some, and exempts others who are nearly in parity with the US in consumption and pollution.

If we take the initiative, it could bode well in the long run. However, I look at events like Bali and see the involvement of the UN and do not see solutions, I see finger pointing. Al Gore did nothing to help and he has overstepped his bounds this past week.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[Gawain 0]

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Max, such a thing might actually work. The UN would likely try to impose sanctions for doing that, though.

Oh no!! Not a UN sanction!! Anything but that!!!

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[lawrocket 3]

"The UN got a problem with me? You know what you should do? You should sanction me. Sanction me with your army....Oh! Wait a minute! You don't have an army! I guess that means you need to shut the fuck up! That's what I'd do if I didn't have an army, I would shut the fuck up! SHUT...THE FUCK....UP!"

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[martin-o 0]

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If it were me, I would by-pass the UN Bali meeting and extend a special envoy to India and China to come up with a tri-lateral agreement to develop new technologies, reduce emissions, between the three of us, and then have the three of us own the technology to sell to the rest of the world.

That would be fantastic.

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UN mandates over the past 15 years have proven themselves nearly 100% ineffective.

... but isn't it a bit ridiculous to blame the UN when you are the bad guy.

[lawrocket 3]

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but isn't it a bit ridiculous to blame the UN when you are the bad guy.

He's saying that UN Mandates don't work.

Are you saying that UN Mandates don't work because the US prevents them from working?

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[Royd 0]

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We're the biggest emitter of CO2 on the planet. If we don't change, then the rest of the world combined won't be able to do much. If we do agree to slow down CO2 emissions, then we could get a significant reduction.

So do you think that all of this CO2 is being produced by people who have nothing better to do than drive around on the weekend and see the Good Ol' USA, or are we actually producing something?

[Royd 0]

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Unfortunately, I think that many people's objections to Kyoto are not the (stated) details of the agreement, or what country is allowed to do what. Their underlying objection is that they don't want to do ANYTHING. Thus I think you might see the same sort of attacks that Kyoto got - whether or not it is similar.

As for the US, I think we recognize that it's an attempt by other countries to hold our economy hostage.

[rushmc 18]

....and I, for 1, am grateful. Common sense against a political money grab is refreshing for a change

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[martin-o 0]

US is a part of UN. A very important part. In this case the US have been the obstructing part. I believe that there is a sense outside the US that the US don't like the UN because the UN doesn't always want the same thing as the US. Lets face it, you are used to be the alpha dog, and maybe you have lost the feeling that you need to compromise on anything.

[martin-o 0]

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As for the US, I think we recognize that it's an attempt by other countries to hold our economy hostage.

For real??? Ever heard the saying "when America gets a cold the rest of the world gets the flu". It's in no ones interest to halt the US economy. To imply that is just silly.

[shropshire 0]

Some Americans seem to forget thet they are the UN as much as the rest of us.

ANd Rod, the rest of the world isn't out to get American Businesses... but fuck wits driving ridiculously large cars for no good reason and moaning about the cost of fuel (which is lower there than almost anywhere)is just plain selfish and arrogant to the point of stupid.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[Royd 0]

As for the US, I think we recognize that it's an attempt by other countries to hold our economy hostage.

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For real??? Ever heard the saying "when America gets a cold the rest of the world gets the flu". It's in no ones interest to halt the US economy. To imply that is just silly.

We are the Nancy Kerrigan and the rest of the world is the Tonya Harding, and they'd love nothing more than to take us out of first place by kneecapping us, regardless of the fact that they know their own economies would be damaged.

Why isn't China and India being hammered? They are far worse polluters of the the environment than we are.

[martin-o 0]

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Why isn't China and India being hammered? They are far worse polluters of the the environment than we are.

Because they are not. China is emitting roughly the same amount of CO2 as the US, but has a population that is more than 4 times that of the US. I know it's hard for you to see yourself as anything else than the saints of the planet but in this case you are clearly not.

[Royd 0]

Why isn't China and India being hammered? They are far worse polluters of the the environment than we are.

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Because they are not. China is emitting roughly the same amount of CO2 as the US, but has a population that is more than 4 times that of the US. I know it's hard for you to see yourself as anything else than the saints of the planet but in this case you are clearly not.

First, I disagree that CO2 is a pollutant.
Second, there are far more dangerous things spewed into the air than CO2, and China has quite a GAF attitude about it.

Case in point. They think nothing of painting childrens toys with lead based paint, and shipping them here.
Personally, I think that it's a huge conspiracy.

[KidWicked 0]

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"The UN got a problem with me? You know what you should do? You should sanction me. Sanction me with your army....Oh! Wait a minute! You don't have an army! I guess that means you need to shut the fuck up! That's what I'd do if I didn't have an army, I would shut the fuck up! SHUT...THE FUCK....UP!"

Might makes right? Where do your law books say that?

Coreece: "You sound like some skinheads I know, but your prejudice is with Christians, not niggers..."

[shropshire 0]

What sort of Pinko-Commie-bed-wetting-unpaytreeotik-poofter are you anyway boy

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[martin-o 0]

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Case in point. They think nothing of painting childrens toys with lead based paint, and shipping them here. Personally, I think that it's a huge conspiracy.

Or maybe it's because you don't want to pay the actual cost of toys made in a responsible way. It's not Chines people who are consuming these gods. When you go to Wall mart and see the prices they got on some stuff, while still making a profit, don't you ever wonder why that is?

[rushmc 18]

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Some Americans seem to forget thet they are the UN as much as the rest of us.

ANd Rod, the rest of the world isn't out to get American Businesses... but fuck wits driving ridiculously large cars for no good reason and moaning about the cost of fuel (which is lower there than almost anywhere)is just plain selfish and arrogant to the point of stupid.

jealousy does not become you

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln