mnealtx 0 #76 August 31, 2007 A few more problems with that... you're not going to be able to get that 300 mile range... more than about 150 (half capacity) and you're getting into a 'deep cycle' of the batteries, which reduces it life. Where are you getting the "85% charge in an hour" information from, anyway? Plugging in at night is definitely an option... but your solar power solution isn't going to contribute there, either... so it's a red herring.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #77 August 31, 2007 >Plugging in at night is definitely an option... but your solar power >solution isn't going to contribute there, either... so it's a red herring. There doesn't need to be a physical wire between your car and your solar panel, nor do you need to store the daytime power in batteries for use at night. What most people who want to do this will do is to install a net-metered grid interactive system and charge their cars both at home and at work. The solar system feeds into the grid. The grid then essentially transports it 'for free' to the place it's being used. What really matters from an environmental standpoint is that kWh in equals kWh out; that's the bottom line. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sv3n 0 #78 August 31, 2007 QuoteA few more problems with that... you're not going to be able to get that 300 mile range... more than about 150 (half capacity) and you're getting into a 'deep cycle' of the batteries, which reduces it life. Where are you getting the "85% charge in an hour" information from, anyway? Plugging in at night is definitely an option... but your solar power solution isn't going to contribute there, either... so it's a red herring. From what I've read, the batteries 10 to 15 years ago had no problem at the 100,000 mile mark and were still running fine. I wouldn't consider that a life reducing problem, I'll read some more on it. As far as the 85% charge rate in an hour............I was wrong, over the last decade they've developed fast chargers with which you can get an 85% charge within 40 minutes. That would be about the same time as shopping or going out for lunch. Here's the quote and source: "Amid the talk of new electric sports cars from Tesla and Mullen, we can't forget all the conversion guys turning regular cars into silent runners. For example, World Class Exotics of West Palm Beach, Florida, which handles all sorts of electric-car projects, including this Porsche 959-look EV. As is, it has a range of 100 miles range at 60 mph (top speed 100 mph) but can be upgrated to lithium-ion batteries for a 200+ mile range using. It's powered by a NetGain "WARP" 11" motor, hooked to a 2000-amp, water-cooled Zilla controller, with a five-speed 915 Porsche transmission attached for power transfer. It comes with a fast-charger that can give the batteries a 85% charge in 40 minutes. For you? $65,000. Or, you can have that old Rolls in the barn converted (yes, they can do that). – Mike Spinelli" http://jalopnik.com/cars/ev/index.xml Red Herring? I'm not sure if you're familiar with the way solar and wind energy is hooked into the electrical grid...it's plugged into the wiring and actually makes your electric meter spin backwards when it's collecting energy because that energy that you're making gets used by someone else and the power company charges them for it. So it's making you money all day. Since a full charge 10 to 15 years ago would take 3-4 hours and now they have fast chargers that can do 85% in 40 minutes.....you shouldn't be charging it very long at all. Plus add in the fact that your average american driver only uses 34 miles per day, with a 300 mile range that would mean you only used 11.4% and that would be all that you'd have to recharge....and you're in violation of your face! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #79 August 31, 2007 QuoteQuote>On average, people's driving skills suck and they like to place the blame >on the vehicle. Yes. But if you are (as you mentioned) an excellent driver, you will be safer in a car that can be pushed harder than in an SUV in which you have to guard against rollover. Lower-CG vehicles stop faster, can turn more sharply and are more predictable. If, OTOH, you plan to drive headfirst into other vehicles, the SUV would likely be the safer vehicle. As you mentioned, it's all in the context. Regardless of your points here the highway safety administration says taking SUVs off the road (for everyone) would result in 96000 more deaths over 10 years. Period Still no source cited. Can't find it? (Or did you just make it up?)... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idrankwhat 0 #80 August 31, 2007 Quote Besides, can I do this (see attached photo) with a VW Beetle? I think not. Canoe on a beetle? No problem. But admittedly, there are some times when you need that bigger vehicle. http://media.ebaumsworld.com/cartrailor.wmv Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #81 August 31, 2007 Quote>Plugging in at night is definitely an option... but your solar power >solution isn't going to contribute there, either... so it's a red herring. There doesn't need to be a physical wire between your car and your solar panel, nor do you need to store the daytime power in batteries for use at night. What most people who want to do this will do is to install a net-metered grid interactive system and charge their cars both at home and at work. The solar system feeds into the grid. The grid then essentially transports it 'for free' to the place it's being used. What really matters from an environmental standpoint is that kWh in equals kWh out; that's the bottom line. But, that's not what he said, Bill - he said that people will/are install(ing) solar panels to charge the car - no mention of grid tie or anything else. I'm refuting his overly simplistic view that a couple of panels are going to provide anywhere near the power to recharge the vehicle...and doubly so when the vehicle is nowhere near the house during the day, when the panels are making the power.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #82 August 31, 2007 >he said that people will/are install(ing) solar panels to charge the >car - no mention of grid tie or anything else. ?? Well, he didn't mention that he was going to put the solar panels in the sun, either, but that's pretty much a given with any solar installation. Any _functioning_ solar installation is going to work one of three ways: Pure grid tie. Simplest and cheapest. Power goes into the grid, power comes out of the grid to charge the car. (That's what I do, although I charge a bike, not a car.) Grid tie/batteries. More expensive. In most modes works the same as above, with the provisio that if the grid goes down he can still charge the car (via the batteries.) Standalone. This means a solar/battery system with no grid connection. Will also work fine to charge the car, but now you have to charge it during the day hooked up to that system, so it's less convenient. Most people are going to go pure grid tie just because it's cheap. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #83 August 31, 2007 QuoteMost people are going to go pure grid tie just because it's cheap. Agreed - but his post addressed it as a standalone system, so that's what I rebutted. Back to the subject at hand (Electric Vehicles). For the person that never goes further than the short daily commute, I think it's a very workable solution (provided you live in an area where you never need A/C in the vehicle). That solution falls apart for longer drives, however. I still see the future vehicle having hub-centric electric motors with a pony motor to power them and charge a small battery bank, though.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #84 August 31, 2007 >For the person that never goes further than the short daily commute, I >think it's a very workable solution (provided you live in an area where you >never need A/C in the vehicle). ?? All the production EV's I've seen (the GM Impact, Toyota RAV4-EV, Ford Ranger, Honda EV1) had air conditioning. >I still see the future vehicle having hub-centric electric motors with a pony >motor to power them and charge a small battery bank, though. Hub-centric motors may work for some vehicles, but I don't think they'll be popular for higher performance cars. Unsprung weight is a performance killer. The "pony motor" idea (to turn a pure EV into a series hybrid) is a good one. I envision it as a tiny trailer you can tow for long trips, or perhaps as a component of a larger trailer (since long trips often involve moving stuff.) Since it need only run at one speed, and does not have to vary its power output, it can be very efficient indeed, and can take advantage of a wide variety of engines (diesel, otto, atkinson, stirling, even fuel cells.) Also, since it's not too hard to standardize on supply voltage, you could have one trailer that works for all EV's. You could just rent one when you needed it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #85 August 31, 2007 Quote?? All the production EV's I've seen (the GM Impact, Toyota RAV4-EV, Ford Ranger, Honda EV1) had air conditioning. Really? I didn't know that - and I remember you talking about having to modify your Prius so the A/C would work in some sort of situation. QuoteHub-centric motors may work for some vehicles, but I don't think they'll be popular for higher performance cars. Unsprung weight is a performance killer. The "pony motor" idea (to turn a pure EV into a series hybrid) is a good one. I envision it as a tiny trailer you can tow for long trips, or perhaps as a component of a larger trailer (since long trips often involve moving stuff.) Since it need only run at one speed, and does not have to vary its power output, it can be very efficient indeed, and can take advantage of a wide variety of engines (diesel, otto, atkinson, stirling, even fuel cells.) Also, since it's not too hard to standardize on supply voltage, you could have one trailer that works for all EV's. You could just rent one when you needed it. I was thinking more on the lines of a very efficient hybrid (electric drive only, with the pony motor being withing the vehicle). The idea of an external "motor drive" trailer is in interesting one, though!Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #86 August 31, 2007 > and I remember you talking about having to modify your Prius so the A/C > would work in some sort of situation. The Prius uses an electric motor to drive the compressor, so it works whenever the car is on. The Honda Civic Hybrid, however, uses a standard engine-driven compressor, so when the engine does its idle-stop thing you lose the A/C for a while. When you think about it, in hot climates, an A/C increases your range anyway. Driving at highway speeds it's a lot more efficient to run the A/C than keep the windows open. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #87 August 31, 2007 Quote> and I remember you talking about having to modify your Prius so the A/C > would work in some sort of situation. The Prius uses an electric motor to drive the compressor, so it works whenever the car is on. The Honda Civic Hybrid, however, uses a standard engine-driven compressor, so when the engine does its idle-stop thing you lose the A/C for a while. When you think about it, in hot climates, an A/C increases your range anyway. Driving at highway speeds it's a lot more efficient to run the A/C than keep the windows open. I appreciate the info - thanks.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #88 August 31, 2007 QuoteCanoe on a beetle? No problem. It's not just the canoe. It's also got to have high ground clearance and four-wheel drive for off-roading. It needs to be big enough to hold a week or two of camping gear and supplies. And big enough for me to sleep inside when the tent is unsuitable in inclement weather. Can an AlGore-mobile do all that? You can't do any of that with a VW. Nor this: Photo 1: evil SUV in deep soft sand in Big Bend National Park. Photo 2: evil SUV on treacherous rock ledge above Devil's River. Photo 3: evil SUV atop cliff overlooking Rio Grande River. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #89 August 31, 2007 Quote You can't do any of that with a VW. Nor this: Photo 1: evil SUV in deep soft sand in Big Bend National Park. Photo 2: evil SUV on treacherous rock ledge above Devil's River. Photo 3: evil SUV atop cliff overlooking Rio Grande River. Uh... I used to have VW's and YES I could do any of that.. even with my Type 2 Bus.. that I took on trips toi Guatemala... and trips to the Northwest Territories and the Yukon.. and the Arctic Ocean.It was very similar to the one in the picture.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #90 August 31, 2007 QuoteQuoteCanoe on a beetle? No problem. It's not just the canoe. It's also got to have high ground clearance and four-wheel drive for off-roading. It needs to be big enough to hold a week or two of camping gear and supplies. And big enough for me to sleep inside when the tent is unsuitable in inclement weather. Can an AlGore-mobile do all that? You can't do any of that with a VW. Nor this: Photo 1: evil SUV in deep soft sand in Big Bend National Park. Photo 2: evil SUV on treacherous rock ledge above Devil's River. Photo 3: evil SUV atop cliff overlooking Rio Grande River. Horses for courses. If you need to drive through rivers and deserts, an SUV is appropriate (at least, a REAL SUV like Land Rover, not a cosmetic SUV). SUVs are far from appropriate for the single occupant daily commute from the suburbs to the city center, and a trip to the tennis club on the weekends.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #91 August 31, 2007 Quote Quote You can't do any of that with a VW. Nor this: Photo 1: evil SUV in deep soft sand in Big Bend National Park. Photo 2: evil SUV on treacherous rock ledge above Devil's River. Photo 3: evil SUV atop cliff overlooking Rio Grande River. Uh... I used to have VW's and YES I could do any of that.. even with my Type 2 Bus.. that I took on trips toi Guatemala... and trips to the Northwest Territories and the Yukon.. and the Arctic Ocean.It was very similar to the one in the picture.. I had one like that - with the camping conversion. Hard to believe the places I took it.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #92 August 31, 2007 QuoteSUVs are far from appropriate for the single occupant daily commute from the suburbs to the city center, and a trip to the tennis club on the weekends. In your opinion, of course. While it may not the be environment they were putatively "designed" for, they are more than adequate for the use you have listed.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #93 August 31, 2007 QuoteQuoteSUVs are far from appropriate for the single occupant daily commute from the suburbs to the city center, and a trip to the tennis club on the weekends. In your opinion, of course. While it may not the be environment they were putatively "designed" for, they are more than adequate for the use you have listed. Adequate != appropriate... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #94 August 31, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteSUVs are far from appropriate for the single occupant daily commute from the suburbs to the city center, and a trip to the tennis club on the weekends. In your opinion, of course. While it may not the be environment they were putatively "designed" for, they are more than adequate for the use you have listed. Adequate != appropriate Agreed - the designation is STILL your opinion, however.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #95 August 31, 2007 QuoteI used to have VW's and YES I could do any of that.. The pictures don't show the detail hazards in those places, just the general terrain. A VW would not make it out there. Too many rocks, steep slopes, loose powdery sand, gullies, fissures, and other assorted traps. In many of the places I go, we combine loads and take only the high ground clearance, 4WD vehicles, and leave the passenger cars behind, because they would get stuck. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #96 September 1, 2007 >You can't do any of that with a VW. We pretty regularly go out into the desert on jeep trails to camp for a few days. At some point we all park and shuttle in. We use a Subaru Outback because it gets stuck far less often than the SUV's that show up. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #97 September 1, 2007 Quote>You can't do any of that with a VW. We pretty regularly go out into the desert on jeep trails to camp for a few days. At some point we all park and shuttle in. We use a Subaru Outback because it gets stuck far less often than the SUV's that show up. Well, there are real SUVs, and then there are faux SUVs for the yuppy suburbanites to run Buffy to her ballet lessons.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #98 September 1, 2007 THere is a great canyon that goes from Joshua Tree National Park down to the Salton Sea... the road was conpletely washed out in several places.. and we had to build rock ramps a few times to get thru the gullies. On that trip I had to pull a couple 4x4's out that had managed to get high centered.. and that was with my ugly old 2 wheel drive VW Camper BusYou see LOTS of VW's off road to this day...think of what most SAND RAILS are based on.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #99 September 1, 2007 ....and another major factor is, having the skill to drive Off Road. (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #100 September 1, 2007 Quote and another major factor is, having the skill to drive Off Road. Well there is that too.... I still get reaaly strange looks when I show up with my 2003(I did this when it was new in 2003 too) at the Mud Pit and have water coiming up over the hood .. and most of the offroaders have old beaters. I bought a 4x4 so I really COULD drive off road sometimes Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
