Who said the following quotes?

[NCclimber 0]

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I was speaking about the more 'vocal' element right here... who isnt and wont do a damn thing but TALK about how 'we' are doing the 'right thing'

Kind of like all those people who think those Americans, who already pay the lion's share of taxes, should pay more.

Except there is one major difference. Individual soldiers voluntarily join the armed forces. Individual taxpayers don't really have a choice.

[rushmc 18]

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I was speaking about the more 'vocal' element right here... who isnt and wont do a damn thing but TALK about how 'we' are doing the 'right thing'

Kind of like all those people who think those Americans, who already pay the lion's share of taxes, should pay more.

Except there is one major difference. Individual soldiers voluntarily join the armed forces. Individual taxpayers don't really have a choice.

I love this new story line they have. Don't mean shit but it makes them feel better that they have some kind of response

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[idrankwhat 0]

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I was speaking about the more 'vocal' element right here... who isnt and wont do a damn thing but TALK about how 'we' are doing the 'right thing'

Kind of like all those people who think those Americans, who already pay the lion's share of taxes, should pay more.

Except there is one major difference. Individual soldiers voluntarily join the armed forces. Individual taxpayers don't really have a choice.

I love this new story line they have. Don't mean shit but it makes them feel better that they have some kind of response

What price have you paid for this war that you so openly support? I'm fully against it but I'm willing to pay a "war tax" if they'll itemize it on my pay stub. How 'bout you?

[Iceburner 0]

the only thing that pisses me off is not getting the best gear...rather, we get the best gear we can afford...Dont get me wrong, i think we go into combat with enough gear to get us through it, but knowing that the XM-8 is held back due to lack of funds, the JSF is having some funding problems. I agree that there should be checks and balances on the military...but a lot of this political crap is simply so some politician can further their carreer....

okay, my lil rant is over.

[SpeedRacer 1]

If you look at the original post, it would appear that Bush was not entirely a neo-con, but became one later on.

The neo-conservative "manifesto" is laid out on the website www.newamericancentury.org. George W. Bush is not one of the people who signed on with that crowd (ie, he didn't sign many of the petitions shown on the website), but some of the people in his cabinet are.

Speed Racer
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[idrankwhat 0]

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the only thing that pisses me off is not getting the best gear...rather, we get the best gear we can afford...Dont get me wrong, i think we go into combat with enough gear to get us through it, but knowing that the XM-8 is held back due to lack of funds, the JSF is having some funding problems. I agree that there should be checks and balances on the military...but a lot of this political crap is simply so some politician can further their carreer....

okay, my lil rant is over.

It's a fine rant. And you should rant. You should have your xm-8 and MRAPs instead of Humvees. And we pay enough money in taxes to get you those things but it's misappropriated in favor of unaccountable civilian contractors.

[rushmc 18]

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the only thing that pisses me off is not getting the best gear...rather, we get the best gear we can afford...Dont get me wrong, i think we go into combat with enough gear to get us through it, but knowing that the XM-8 is held back due to lack of funds, the JSF is having some funding problems. I agree that there should be checks and balances on the military...but a lot of this political crap is simply so some politician can further their carreer....

okay, my lil rant is over.

It's a fine rant. And you should rant. You should have your xm-8 and MRAPs instead of Humvees. And we pay enough money in taxes to get you those things but it's misappropriated in favor of unaccountable civilian contractors.

Ya, taxes, that is what this is all about. Can't cut because the prized prgrams have become entitlements and continue to by Dem votes.


Got a problem? Real or not? Throw money at it.

What a joke. (and I aint talking specifically about militarty supplies so don't even begin to flame me on that)

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[idrankwhat 0]

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Ya, taxes, that is what this is all about. Can't cut because the prized prgrams have become entitlements and continue to by Dem votes.


Got a problem? Real or not? Throw money at it.

What a joke. (and I aint talking specifically about militarty supplies so don't even begin to flame me on that)

I noticed that you're not answering the question that I asked you directly.

[rushmc 18]

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Ya, taxes, that is what this is all about. Can't cut because the prized prgrams have become entitlements and continue to by Dem votes.


Got a problem? Real or not? Throw money at it.

What a joke. (and I aint talking specifically about militarty supplies so don't even begin to flame me on that)

I noticed that you're not answering the question that I asked you directly.

I have answered it all that I will

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[SpeedRacer 1]

War is just another big, expensive, government program. (from the Welfare/Warfare state.)



Anyway the original post was supposed to show how Bush has changed his tune & been influenced by neo-conservatism.

Speed Racer
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[rushmc 18]

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War is just another big, expensive, government program. (from the Welfare/Warfare state.)



Anyway the original post was supposed to show how Bush has changed his tune & been influenced by neo-conservatism.

what ever

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[billvon 2,463]

>I believe Gen. Petraus gave a briefing to Congress about that a few weeks ago...

About that report he's giving real soon.

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Despite Bush's repeated statements that the report will reflect evaluations by Petraeus and Ryan Crocker, the U.S. ambassador to Iraq, administration officials said it would actually be written by the White House, with inputs from officials throughout the government.

And though Petraeus and Crocker will present their recommendations on Capitol Hill, legislation passed by Congress leaves it to the president to decide how to interpret the report's data.

The senior administration official said the process had created "uncomfortable positions" for the White House because of debates over what constitutes "satisfactory progress."

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-pullback15aug15,0,4840766.story?page=2&coll=la-home-center
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So the administration will write the report and then act on it. If I were a senator I wouldn't bother going to that either. You can listen to a White House press conference any time. Heck, you can just take any report on Iraq given in the last four years, change the date, and be good. I'll give it a shot here:

"The surge is working. Violence is down, the Iraqi military are stepping up to the plate, and we are seeing democracy and freedom flourish in Iraq.

But that doesn't mean we can let our guard down. We must be ever vigilant to defend freedom in areas where tyrants try to use violence to impose their will on peace-loving people. We have to support our troops as they help lay the groundwork for a peaceful, stable Iraq and a better future for all of the Middle East.

There is good news on the Iraqi military front. Iraqi troops are becoming ever more competent, and there are several areas where they operate autonomously. As they stand up, we will stand down. Some time Real Soon Now - perhaps within six months - we will be able to draw down troops in areas where the Iraqi Military has taken control. Until then we must provide all the support the american military needs to do their jobs.

God Bless America. Good night."

[Zenister 0]

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I was speaking about the more 'vocal' element right here... who isnt and wont do a damn thing but TALK about how 'we' are doing the 'right thing'

Kind of like all those people who think those Americans, who already pay the lion's share of taxes, should pay more.

Except there is one major difference. Individual soldiers voluntarily join the armed forces. Individual taxpayers don't really have a choice.

I love this new story line they have. Don't mean shit but it makes them feel better that they have some kind of response

new line? this isnt a new line.. America isnt at war.. YOU are not at war (deployed yet?) The US Military is at war... but go ahead and pretend you have some claim to use the word 'we'

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Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[Iceburner 0]

war is an extension of politics....therefore, yes, America is at war...

[billvon 2,463]

> war is an extension of politics....therefore, yes, America is at war...

By that definition, we've been at war forever. Who can forget the War on Drugs, the War on Illiteracy, the War on Poverty etc. Of course by that definition, war has no meaning; it's action against anything bad.

I hereby declare War on Bad 4-way. Perris will now be At War, and will remain so until we eradicate that unsafe, unsatisfying sort of skydiving. Sorry we had to bump your freefly jump, but we got a 4-way here, and didn't you hear? We're At War!

But by the definition that most people understand war, we're nowhere near "at war." I think a World War II vet would be a bit taken aback to call what we're doing now "war" when we compare what we're sacrificing to what he (and his generation) sacrificed.

When we institute strict gasoline rationing to help deprive 'terrorist states' of income, then I will believe we are "at war." When we bring back the draft to maintain military levels I'll believe more of the rhetoric. But as long as we continue to pursue our creature comforts while watching other people fight in a war that has nothing to do with defending the US, I'll take any claims of "We're At War!" as the usual political bloviating.

[Zenister 0]

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war is an extension of politics....therefore, yes, America is at war...

this simply illustrates a complete ignorance of what is actually going on...

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[kallend 1,672]

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>

"The surge is working. Violence is down, the Iraqi military are stepping up to the plate, and we are seeing democracy and freedom flourish in Iraq.

But that doesn't mean we can let our guard down. We must be ever vigilant to defend freedom in areas where tyrants try to use violence to impose their will on peace-loving people. We have to support our troops as they help lay the groundwork for a peaceful, stable Iraq and a better future for all of the Middle East.

There is good news on the Iraqi military front. Iraqi troops are becoming ever more competent, and there are several areas where they operate autonomously. As they stand up, we will stand down. Some time Real Soon Now - perhaps within six months - we will be able to draw down troops in areas where the Iraqi Military has taken control. Until then we must provide all the support the american military needs to do their jobs.

God Bless America. Good night."

Not enough mangled English for a report by Bush.

How many high-priced political consultants and spin-doctors did you use to write that speech, anyway?

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Amazon 7]

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They should pass a law that requires the surviving reporters to report on only good things. Once the government starts dictating what should be reported on THEN we'll see accurate and unbiased reporting.

I bet the NEO CONS on here would just LOVE TASS and PRAVDA back in the good old days....

Tractor factories cranking out thousands of tractors.... collective farms harvesting abundant crops...reconstruction of hundreds of miles of the Trans-Siberian Railroad.... and rousing music to go with the images

[kallend 1,672]

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I was speaking about the more 'vocal' element right here... who isnt and wont do a damn thing but TALK about how 'we' are doing the 'right thing'

Kind of like all those people who think those Americans, who already pay the lion's share of taxes, should pay more.

Except there is one major difference. Individual soldiers voluntarily join the armed forces. Individual taxpayers don't really have a choice.

I love this new story line they have. Don't mean shit but it makes them feel better that they have some kind of response

What price have you paid for this war that you so openly support? I'm fully against it but I'm willing to pay a "war tax" if they'll itemize it on my pay stub. How 'bout you?

Pay? Are you CRAZY? Borrow, my boy, debt is the answer.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[ErricoMalatesta 0]

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Despite what the left would have us think, SH was a direct threat to US security.

Is this another case of you saying something that you are aware doesn't make any sense or are all global analysts including the CIA 'the left'.

i tend to put this into the same catagory of Hitler not being a direct threat to the US...yet we wanted him out of power (even long before Japan bombed Pearl Harbor). Wether or not you agree or disagree with the presidents reasons for entering into conflict, SH was a bad man, an evil dictator, and is better off not being in power.

“entering into conflict” does it just magically happen does it? Was the conflict already going? Its called the supreme crime of aggression; invading a sovereign nation. At least give back to the 100,000s of dead people your country killed what little you can by calling it what it is instead of whitewashing American foreign policy with “entering the conflict”.

SH was a bad guy AND an evil dictator? I am not ten years old and you don’t have to speak to me like one, unless that is just reassuring yourself.

SH was a murdering dictator, who you helped all throughout his worst crimes and then you put him on trial for all those crimes that you helped him with. None of which had anything to do with invading the country.

[NCclimber 0]

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> war is an extension of politics....therefore, yes, America is at war...

By that definition, we've been at war forever. Who can forget the War on Drugs, the War on Illiteracy, the War on Poverty etc. Of course by that definition, war has no meaning; it's action against anything bad.

I hereby declare War on Bad 4-way. Perris will now be At War, and will remain so until we eradicate that unsafe, unsatisfying sort of skydiving. Sorry we had to bump your freefly jump, but we got a 4-way here, and didn't you hear? We're At War!

But by the definition that most people understand war, we're nowhere near "at war." I think a World War II vet would be a bit taken aback to call what we're doing now "war" when we compare what we're sacrificing to what he (and his generation) sacrificed.

When we institute strict gasoline rationing to help deprive 'terrorist states' of income, then I will believe we are "at war." When we bring back the draft to maintain military levels I'll believe more of the rhetoric. But as long as we continue to pursue our creature comforts while watching other people fight in a war that has nothing to do with defending the US, I'll take any claims of "We're At War!" as the usual political bloviating.

"How many high-priced political consultants and spin-doctors did you use to write that speech, anyway?"

Do you think if we compared the sacrifices of the Civil War to those of WWII we could disqualify WWII as an actual war, also?

[NCclimber 0]

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I bet the NEO CONS on here would just LOVE TASS and PRAVDA back in the good old days.

You seem to like throwing these labels around. When you talk about "the NEO CONS on here", who specifically are you talking about?

I hope you're not talking about me. That would reflect poorly on your level of critical thinking.

[Iceburner 0]

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> war is an extension of politics....therefore, yes, America is at war...

By that definition, we've been at war forever. Who can forget the War on Drugs, the War on Illiteracy, the War on Poverty etc. Of course by that definition, war has no meaning; it's action against anything bad.

I hereby declare War on Bad 4-way. Perris will now be At War, and will remain so until we eradicate that unsafe, unsatisfying sort of skydiving. Sorry we had to bump your freefly jump, but we got a 4-way here, and didn't you hear? We're At War!

But by the definition that most people understand war, we're nowhere near "at war." I think a World War II vet would be a bit taken aback to call what we're doing now "war" when we compare what we're sacrificing to what he (and his generation) sacrificed.

When we institute strict gasoline rationing to help deprive 'terrorist states' of income, then I will believe we are "at war." When we bring back the draft to maintain military levels I'll believe more of the rhetoric. But as long as we continue to pursue our creature comforts while watching other people fight in a war that has nothing to do with defending the US, I'll take any claims of "We're At War!" as the usual political bloviating.

In reference to MCDP 1, (the Marine Corps Warfighting Manual): War is a violent clash of interests between or among organized groups characterized by the use of military force. These groups have traditionally been established nation-states, but may also include any nonstate group such as an international colition or faction within or outside of an existing state with it's own POLITICAL INTERESTS and the ABILITY to generate organized violence on a scale SUFFICIENT to have SIGNIFICANT POLITICAL CONSEQUESNCES......The essence of war is a violent struggle between two hostile, independent and irreconcilable wills, each trying to impose itself on the other. War is fundamentally an interactive SOCIAL PROCESS...."

I could go on, but this simply backs up that war is an extension of politics. The way the process normally breaks down is you have the 2 irreconcilable wills, you use political means (i.e. talks, sanctions, etc), and when you still can't get along, you impose your will on the other...the other will breaks, and then your POLITICAL process is complete.

The "war on drugs" is not a real war....there is not an organized group called "Drugs"....it's simply the US and the police trying to enforce their laws on a SUBSTANCE. And if you feel you can declare war on Bad 4-way teams, then you will have to go through the political process, attempt to reconsile your wills on all bad 4-way teams, and if that fails, then you can attempt to force your will on all bad 4-way teams...


You define WWII vet not calling what we are doing a "war"....WWII is about the closest thing to a total war we have ever gotten...mainly because we used all of our nations assets to defeat the enemy (i.e. nuclear weapons). I know a WWII vet (he lives across from me) and he calls this a war, and is proud of what myself and my devil dogs are doing. He knows what is reported. The draft will not come back IMO because of how uneffective it is. The Marines are making their recruiting goals, the army is not. I would go, but i got a brief to recieve...and feel that i'm wasting my breath on you anyways.

[idrankwhat 0]

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I love this new story line they have. Don't mean shit but it makes them feel better that they have some kind of response

What price have you paid for this war that you so openly support? I'm fully against it but I'm willing to pay a "war tax" if they'll itemize it on my pay stub. How 'bout you?

Pay? Are you CRAZY? Borrow, my boy, debt is the answer.

Yes, passing on the responsibility to fight or pay for wars to another party is certainly the burden a true Patriot must bear!
Actually, that was a bit of a trick question. I have no problem paying for things that I support. But I also know that if there was an off budget funding method for war that showed up each week on your pay stub that the chickenhawks would change their tune pretty quickly. A draft would have the same effect.

[rehmwa 2]

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I also know that if there was an off budget funding method for war that showed up each week on your pay stub that the chickenhawks would change their tune pretty quickly. A draft would have the same effect.

Great idea. Let's also do that for welfare and other entitlement programs.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants