Richards 0
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People who are here illegally can get a Z visa; this allows them to apply for a green card.
Well, some people could even believe in this :)
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To do this they have to:
-pay a $4000 fine
-go home
-file a green card application
-go to the "end of the line" for green cards
-demonstrate merit, like a diploma or specific skills.
- mightl be issued a Green Card, but refused to entry to US according to current law for 10 years. Or the bill is changing INA as well?
Also there are more categories who are banned from GC. Does the bill exclude them all, or not? Like people with AIDS? People who earn money but didn't pay taxes?
[eply]
People who are here illegally can get a Z-visa if they entered before Jan of this year. If they don't apply for a green card they can stay in the US and work.
What company it allows to work for? If for any company - I see no difference with a green card. If they need to get employment authorization (like H1B), most of employers will not be able to get it - there is no way they could prove no US person wants to and is qualified do this job.
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It also encourages new illegal immigration by holding out the promise of a future amendment to help all these "poor people who were discriminated against just because they weren't here by a specific date."
Agreed.
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Immigrant selection preference will be given to skilled applicants instead of relatives of US citizens. Good idea.
The current problem is backlog. People have filed GC applications in 2000, were approved, and still haven't got their GCs yet because of infamous "name check". Something should be changed; applications need to be processed faster.
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Guest workers can come here to work for three two-year terms (up to 400,000 of them) and they'd have to spend at least a year outside the United States between each term.
Sounds like J1 visa.
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They can bring in immediate family members if they can prove financial ability to support them and can maintain health insurance.
This will not work. Health insurance is expensive, and even not all Americans could afford it. I expect this to be subject to fraud, like it is with auto insurance - they get it to register in DMV, and then cancel it in 2 weeks, and get a refund. It would be easier to collect from them, as they would have SSNs, and legal wages, but the amount of money you could collect from them hardly justify even collection costs itself.
I still could not understand one thing: those illegals are now employed, because they are paid less than minimal wage, and have to work overtime for free. If they become legal, they will have to be paid minimal wage, and overtimes. This means that they could not be employed there anymore, as an employer who wishes to pay minimal wage would not go to "grey area" hiring illegals - it's already a crime.
* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *
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Surely such an issue would affect the price of corn to Mexican mills and flour to Mexican bakers favorably?
This would be a sarcastic joke if not for the lack of sarcasm
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This is more complex than a single datapoint and is ultimately a net gain for Mexico.
You don't really know much about free trade do you?
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P.S. but hey go for it, get enough of your countrymen to repeal it tomorrow if you like.
I don't remember being Mexican.
dorbie 0
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Surely such an issue would affect the price of corn to Mexican mills and flour to Mexican bakers favorably?
This would be a sarcastic joke if not for the lack of sarcasm
It's quite serious, if you claim as you did that Mexican farmers are being undercut on specific produce then there are downstream folks who consume the produce who are buying it cheaper elsewhere, and they benefit as a result. For every loser there's a winer and you need to look at the balance of trade to get a fair overview.
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This is more complex than a single datapoint and is ultimately a net gain for Mexico.
You don't really know much about free trade do you?
The U.S. runs a a $64billion trade deficit with Mexico. Now when you can explain how the flow of $64billion P.A. of trade dollars hurts the Mexican economy you'll have something to say. In addition to this there's an overall trade of around $200billion P.A. which generates Mexican jobs. This also ignores straight cash transfers from U.S. resident citizens which could push the deficit to $100 billion. You've really got a nerve saying anyone knows less than you about free trade as you ignore the hard evidence.
Go on give us another bullshit anecdote to cover-up the mountainous trade benefit Mexico is reaping today.
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Surely such an issue would affect the price of corn to Mexican mills and flour to Mexican bakers favorably?
This would be a sarcastic joke if not for the lack of sarcasm
For every loser there's a winer and you need to look at the balance of trade to get a fair overview.
Yes the winners are foreign investors and the losers are the majority of the population.
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This is more complex than a single datapoint and is ultimately a net gain for Mexico.
You don't really know much about free trade do you?
The U.S. runs a a $64billion trade deficit with Mexico. Now when you can explain how the flow of $64billion P.A. of trade dollars hurts the Mexican economy you'll have something to say. In addition to this there's an overall trade of around $200billion P.A. which generates Mexican jobs. This also ignores straight cash transfers from U.S. resident citizens which could push the deficit to $100 billion. You've really got a nerve saying anyone knows less than you about free trade as you ignore the hard evidence.
Yes the hard evidence was in a long time ago and you see it in all countries that enter into “free trade” agreements. A small part of the population win, foreign investors win and the majorities lose.
Businesses would prefer to not hire U.S. citizen over illegal because they are afraid they will have to pay the U.S. Citizen more in wages and they know, they can get illegals for a cheaper price. As for not being able to go through a day without illegals... I do it quite ofetn! So many of them have been hired in this country that yeah, it is almost impossible to avoid contact with them.
One damned good idea is to fine the hell out of employers who hire illegals. Allow the Border Patrol to raid businesses. Cut welfare to 2nd. and 3rd. generation recipients. All this bull-shit about the U.S. having all this room to 'spare' and just let millions of illegals in. We are losing farm and ranch land by the thousands of acres daily. Mostly, due to urban sprawl. We are running out of room. I just get sick and tired of this country cow-towin' to illegals. Damnit, they broke the law to get here, they have no squawk if they get sent back.
One damned good idea is to fine the hell out of employers who hire illegals. Allow the Border Patrol to raid businesses. Cut welfare to 2nd. and 3rd. generation recipients. All this bull-shit about the U.S. having all this room to 'spare' and just let millions of illegals in. We are losing farm and ranch land by the thousands of acres daily. Mostly, due to urban sprawl. We are running out of room. I just get sick and tired of this country cow-towin' to illegals. Damnit, they broke the law to get here, they have no squawk if they get sent back.
Richards 0
QuoteOne damned good idea is to fine the hell out of employers who hire illegals. Allow the Border Patrol to raid businesses.
Excellent idea. They might then have to offer a liveable wage to citizens.
QuoteCut welfare to 2nd. and 3rd. generation recipients.
Another excelent idea. Imagine expecting a new arrival to actually have a plan.
QuoteI just get sick and tired of this country cow-towin' to illegals. Damnit, they broke the law to get here, they have no squawk if they get sent back
Yet strangely they do have the balls to protest and make demands. Funny, I am not anti-immigrant, and I suspect you are not either but because we do not cow-tow to political correctness on those who break the law we will undoubtedly be accused of being anti immigrant. Odd how that works
My biggest handicap is that sometimes the hole in the front of my head operates a tad bit faster than the grey matter contained within.
billvon 2,442
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>Yet strangely the do have the balls to protest and make demands.
Which, ironically, makes them more like us than unlike us.
Which, ironically, makes them more like us than unlike us.
QuoteQuoteOne damned good idea is to fine the hell out of employers who hire illegals. Allow the Border Patrol to raid businesses.
Excellent idea. They might then have to ofer a liveable wage to citizens.QuoteCut welfare to 2nd. and 3rd. generation recipients.
Another excelent idea. Imagine expecting a new arrival to actually have a plan.QuoteI just get sick and tired of this country cow-towin' to illegals. Damnit, they broke the law to get here, they have no squawk if they get sent back
Yet strangely the do have the balls to protest and make demands. Funny, I am not anti-immigrant, and I suspect you are not either but because we do not cow-tow to political correctness on those who break the law we will undoubtedly be accused of being anti immigrant. Odd how that works
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I don't think, either one of us is against 'legal' immigration and are actually for it. The 'illegals' know, they get enough of them over here and it's like; "What are you (the U.S.) gonna do about it? Give us amnesty... we win!" When the illegals protest against having to return to their native country, they're just thumbing their collective noses at us. What's wrong with that picture?
Chuck
Richards 0
QuoteWhich, ironically, makes them more like us than unlike us.
I have never in my life made demands that a government accomodate me while breaking a law. For that matter I do not break the law (to the best of my knowledge).
When have you demanded accomodation for illegal activity?
My biggest handicap is that sometimes the hole in the front of my head operates a tad bit faster than the grey matter contained within.
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"What are you (the U.S.) gonna do about it? Give us amnesty... we win!"
The trick is that by giving up our current policies, we win too. Beyond amnesty, we owe foremost ourselves an apology for perpetuating this broken system. And to all the legal and illegal immigrants and people we've screwed with queues and bureaucracy, we should say "we're sorry, we screwed up big time. it's not much consolation but fwiw we took it just as hard as you did".
Vindictiveness doesn't solve anything.
My advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir. The bums will always lose. Do you hear me, Lebowski?
Richards 0
QuoteI don't think, either one of us is against 'legal' immigration and are actually for it. The 'illegals' know, they get enough of them over here and it's like; "What are you (the U.S.) gonna do about it? Give us amnesty... we win!" When the illegals protest against having to return to their native country, they're just thumbing their collective noses at us. What's wrong with that picture?
Tail wags the dog.
My biggest handicap is that sometimes the hole in the front of my head operates a tad bit faster than the grey matter contained within.
billvon 2,442
>When have you demanded accomodation for illegal activity?
I've supported several "criminals" (several BASE jumpers who have been arrested, Jerry Bird) and in effect demanded they be released. Even went to a protest for one of them (Dennis McGlynn.) Their crime was usually being in a place they weren't allowed to be - not unlike illegal aliens.
I've supported several "criminals" (several BASE jumpers who have been arrested, Jerry Bird) and in effect demanded they be released. Even went to a protest for one of them (Dennis McGlynn.) Their crime was usually being in a place they weren't allowed to be - not unlike illegal aliens.
Richards 0
QuoteI've supported several "criminals" (several BASE jumpers who have been arrested, Jerry Bird) and in effect demanded they be released. Even went to a protest for one of them (Dennis McGlynn.) Their crime was usually being in a place they weren't allowed to be - not unlike illegal aliens.
If you do not like a law then you as a voting taxpaying citizen have every right to protest it until it is changed, but until it is you still have to abide by it. While I sympathise with your freinds who base jumped they knew they were violating the law and were responsible for their own actions.
If Americans feel so strongly about needing mass intakes of immigrants then it is their right to demonstrate in support of it. If foreigners dislike US laws then I suppose they also have the right to protest those laws at the US Embassy/consulate in their own country. Protesting while breaking the law and making demands to make it easier to break such laws does not sit well with me. It would be like burglars going out in mass protests demanding to eventually be allowed to keep the proceeds of their dishonesty (much like illegals demanding amnesty).
My biggest handicap is that sometimes the hole in the front of my head operates a tad bit faster than the grey matter contained within.
QuoteQuoteI don't think, either one of us is against 'legal' immigration and are actually for it. The 'illegals' know, they get enough of them over here and it's like; "What are you (the U.S.) gonna do about it? Give us amnesty... we win!" When the illegals protest against having to return to their native country, they're just thumbing their collective noses at us. What's wrong with that picture?
Tail wags the dog.
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That's the truth!
Chuck
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"What are you (the U.S.) gonna do about it? Give us amnesty... we win!"
The trick is that by giving up our current policies, we win too. Beyond amnesty, we owe foremost ourselves an apology for perpetuating this broken system. And to all the legal and illegal immigrants and people we've screwed with queues and bureaucracy, we should say "we're sorry, we screwed up big time. it's not much consolation but fwiw we took it just as hard as you did".
Vindictiveness doesn't solve anything.
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I don't believe, we owe anyone an apology. We need to stand-up and fix the problem. This 'open door policy', you seem to support is a crock! We have Immigration and Nationality laws. As does every other country on this planet. Some folks abide by and respect those laws. There are others who chose to 'ignore' those laws and 'steal' citizenship. What this country needs to do is start enforcing the laws that are already on the books. Check-out other nations laws on immigration! Check-out Mexico's immigration laws. We've made ourselves an easy mark for illegals. We've come just shy of rolling-out the red carpet for illegals. I'm damned sure not going to apologise to an illegal alien for anything!
Chuck
billvon 2,442
>but until it is you still have to abide by it.
I agree there - but nevertheless I have BASE jumped in areas where it was not permitted, have punched clouds, have hiked on railroad tracks that were clearly labeled "no trespassing" and done a few other things that were not strictly legal basically for fun. If I got caught I knew what the penalty might be. I was willing to do that for fun - I can see how someone else might do something similar to feed his family, or move them to someplace better. (Even though it's illegal, and they might be held accountable.)
>While I sympathise with your freinds who base jumped they knew
>they were violating the law and were responsible for their own actions.
I agree.
> It would be like burglars going out in mass protests demanding to
> eventually be allowed to keep the proceeds of their dishonesty (much like
> illegals demanding amnesty).
Or like the BASE jumpers in Yosemite, all of whom had jumped El Cap, protesting when one of their own was arrested.
Immigrants who are here illegally should be dealt with by law enforcement, in whatever order deemed best for society. (In other words, we should go after rapists before the illegal immigrant who's building houses - but in an ideal world we should get all of them.) Until we do, they have the same rights as anyone else in the US.
I agree there - but nevertheless I have BASE jumped in areas where it was not permitted, have punched clouds, have hiked on railroad tracks that were clearly labeled "no trespassing" and done a few other things that were not strictly legal basically for fun. If I got caught I knew what the penalty might be. I was willing to do that for fun - I can see how someone else might do something similar to feed his family, or move them to someplace better. (Even though it's illegal, and they might be held accountable.)
>While I sympathise with your freinds who base jumped they knew
>they were violating the law and were responsible for their own actions.
I agree.
> It would be like burglars going out in mass protests demanding to
> eventually be allowed to keep the proceeds of their dishonesty (much like
> illegals demanding amnesty).
Or like the BASE jumpers in Yosemite, all of whom had jumped El Cap, protesting when one of their own was arrested.
Immigrants who are here illegally should be dealt with by law enforcement, in whatever order deemed best for society. (In other words, we should go after rapists before the illegal immigrant who's building houses - but in an ideal world we should get all of them.) Until we do, they have the same rights as anyone else in the US.
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Check-out other nations laws on immigration!
Now that's a good one! What do other nations' internal policies have to do with ours? Shall we let them govern us?
Bucking the trend and opening the door to immigrants is what turned us from a backwater of criminals and religious sects and into a world power. It is precisely because other nations get worked up on nationalist perversions and shut their doors that it's such a powerful and attractive opportunity for us to take their migrants. They're literally sending us their best, brightest, and most entrepreneurial. All we need to do is let them in to benefit ourselves.
My advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir. The bums will always lose. Do you hear me, Lebowski?
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Businesses would prefer to not hire U.S. citizen over illegal because they are afraid they will have to pay the U.S. Citizen more in wages and they know, they can get illegals for a cheaper price.
Yes, they could. Actually they are doing it right now. However it only work on a very low level, where you can just replace one person with another for no cost (like picking up grapes). If uneducated, unexperienced illegals are your real job competitors, there is something wrong here.
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One damned good idea is to fine the hell out of employers who hire illegals.
This is already a law, but it doesn't work. Basically what illegal has to do is a fill I-9, put random SSN, and check "I'm a U.S. cinizen" box; current law does not require employers to verify the employee legal status through INS/USCIS or SSA. The only time they could get caught is when employer reports the person income (and paid taxes) to IRS, and they return "SSN name/DOB/number mismatch".
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Allow the Border Patrol to raid businesses.
Are there a lot of Border Patrol officers available? I thought there is even not enough to patrol the border itself.
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Cut welfare to 2nd. and 3rd. generation recipients.
Look irrelevant to me. Do illegals receive welfare?
* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *
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If you do not like a law then you as a voting taxpaying citizen have every right to protest it until it is changed, but until it is you still have to abide by it.
No you don't.
The burden of proof lies with the lawmaker or the law itself, if you analyze a law and find it to be completely illegitimate and you do not have the power to dismantle it, either as an individual or as a collective through direct action or protest, then you simply don't follow the law.
Unjust laws aren’t laws, if a power structure places a ban on jumping from a spot in a remote national forest and you are not endangering anyone but yourself when breaking that law then the law is illegitimate and you can ignore it all you like.
You will be punished if you are caught breaking it but just because it exists doesn’t make it right.
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Check-out other nations laws on immigration!
Now that's a good one! What do other nations' internal policies have to do with ours? Shall we let them govern us?
Bucking the trend and opening the door to immigrants is what turned us from a backwater of criminals and religious sects and into a world power. It is precisely because other nations get worked up on nationalist perversions and shut their doors that it's such a powerful and attractive opportunity for us to take their migrants. They're literally sending us their best, brightest, and most entrepreneurial. All we need to do is let them in to benefit ourselves.
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What I am saying is, check-out other country's laws in regard to immigration and you'll find that ours are quite 'easy' in comparison. I'm not by any means saying anything as ridiculous as you suggest.
Also, I am strictly talking about ILLEGAL aliens not legal immigrants. I wish, you could get that straight!!!
Chuck
kallend 1,653
QuoteQuoteWhich, ironically, makes them more like us than unlike us.
I have never in my life made demands that a government accomodate me while breaking a law. For that matter I do not break the law (to the best of my knowledge).
When have you demanded accomodation for illegal activity?
So you never tried to talk your way out of a speeding ticket?
...
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
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Businesses would prefer to not hire U.S. citizen over illegal because they are afraid they will have to pay the U.S. Citizen more in wages and they know, they can get illegals for a cheaper price.
Yes, they could. Actually they are doing it right now. However it only work on a very low level, where you can just replace one person with another for no cost (like picking up grapes). If uneducated, unexperienced illegals are your real job competitors, there is something wrong here.Quote
One damned good idea is to fine the hell out of employers who hire illegals.
This is already a law, but it doesn't work. Basically what illegal has to do is a fill I-9, put random SSN, and check "I'm a U.S. cinizen" box; current law does not require employers to verify the employee legal status through INS/USCIS or SSA. The only time they could get caught is when employer reports the person income (and paid taxes) to IRS, and they return "SSN name/DOB/number mismatch".Quote
Allow the Border Patrol to raid businesses.
Are there a lot of Border Patrol officers available? I thought there is even not enough to patrol the border itself.Quote
Cut welfare to 2nd. and 3rd. generation recipients.
Look irrelevant to me. Do illegals receive welfare?
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The problem is, illegals get 'phony' papers and go for the higher paying assembly-line, construction jobs.
Social Security numbers, can be checked-out. The problem there is, it is 'costly' for employers to do so. Employers see an SS card and that's good enough for them! False documents are a real part of the problem. MacArthur Park in L.A., is a good example for illegals to get false documents.
Back in the 70's and '80's, we were short on Patrol Agents but, 'raids' still took place. We can do it again. Especially now, since we have assistance from the Natl. Guard and Sheriff Depts.
By cutting welfare benefits to 2nd. & 3rd. generation welfare recipients, they could do some of the grape picking.
Chuck
jakee 1,262
QuoteIf you do not like a law then you as a voting taxpaying citizen have every right to protest it until it is changed, but until it is you still have to abide by it.
what happens when protest is outlawed?
Do you want to have an ideagasm?
Perhaps the people employing the illegals would have to offer a higher wage to get those jobs done. This might offer incentive to those who are low skilled workers yet not working to get up and work. If I have to pay more for my vegetables so we can actually offer a survivable living to working class citizens then so be it. There are other ways to fight inflation without using illegals to undercut our labour force. Perhaps the increased tax revenue from people working in those jobs at higher wages (and paying taxes) combined with the fact that fewer of our own citizens would be relying as heavily on social services might offset some of the negative effects of having to pay a higher wage for factory work, gardenning or housecleaning.
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