Concealed Handguns on College Campuses

[Douva 0]

In light of the current national debate over whether or not college students and faculty should be allowed to carry concealed handguns on campus, I would like to offer a few insights into the position in favor of allowing concealed carry on college campuses.

As far as I know, nobody is seriously recommending a mass arming of college students and faculty members. Nobody is suggesting that handguns be included in the orientation packets provided to entering freshmen. Nobody is suggesting that, along with laptop computers and chalkboard erasers, every teacher be issued a handgun. And most certainly nobody is recommending that anyone carry a concealed handgun if he or she is not completely comfortable with the idea and competently trained and licensed to do so. What is being suggested is that students and faculty who have already undergone the training, testing, and rigorous background checks required to obtain concealed handgun licenses be allowed to carry their concealed handguns on campus, just as they already do everywhere else.

Throughout this nation there are thousands upon thousands of college students, age twenty-one and above, and collegiate faculty members who, in accordance with state and federal laws, regularly carry concealed handguns in their off-campus lives. Since the statistics show that these same people carry their weapons without incident when not on campus, why should it be assumed that they would demonstrate any less discretion or sound judgment if carrying on campus?

When it comes to the national debate over gun control, many proponents of stricter gun control argue that gun rights advocates are unwilling to compromise. On the contrary, concealed handgun licensing laws are the perfect compromise. Prospective licensees undergo the types of training and stringent background checks that proponents of gun control advocate, and in return, the licensees are allowed to carry their handguns in public. That is a true compromise—both sides give a little, and both sides get a little.

The background checks performed on persons applying for a concealed handgun license are MUCH more extensive than the instant background checks performed when someone purchases a gun. In Texas, the background checks on applicants often take over a hundred days. In most states these extensive checks include both state and federal fingerprint checks, as well as research into sealed and expunged criminal record and records of mental illness. People are often disqualified for things like recent misdemeanor convictions, such as DUIs.

Along with undergoing background checks, applicants must also prove their handgun proficiency on a firing range and take a class in the applicable state and federal laws, including the legal use of deadly force. The practical shooting test proves an applicant’s knowledge of the proper use of his or her firearm. The class covers hypothetical scenarios, case studies, and the legal ramifications of both the lawful and unlawful use of a concealed handgun. It is almost impossible for an applicant to graduate from one of these classes without a grave respect for the serious responsibility of carrying a concealed handgun.

When a 2006 bill before the Virginia State Senate that would have given holders of concealed handgun licenses the right to carry on college campuses was voted down, Virginia Tech spokesman Larry Hincker happily proclaimed, "I'm sure the university community is appreciative of the General Assembly's actions because this will help parents, students, faculty, and visitors feel safe on our campus." Unfortunately, as recent events have shown, feeling safe is not the same as being safe. The feeling of safety provided by “gun free zones” is an illusion. Even law enforcement officers believe so. An officer with the Lexington, Kentucky, Police Department explained, “If you have a concealed carry [license], then you should be allowed to carry anywhere there are not metal detectors. Saying you cannot carry in certain places, like schools, only makes the people that obey the law stop carrying, not the criminals. Criminals don't see the sign and think, 'Gee, I better not shoot there.'”

Declaring an area a “gun free zone” only frees that zone of guns carried by people intent on obeying the law. A person intent on committing murder or any other crime is not going to be deterred by the knowledge that possessing a firearm in a “gun free zone” is a relatively minor infraction of the law.

Many of those opposed to allowing concealed carry on college campuses claim that the mere presence of concealed handguns would be a distraction that would inhibit the learning environment; however, this disregards the basic premise of a CONCEALED handgun. Concealed handgun licensing laws require licensees to keep their guns concealed, out of respect for those people that might be made uncomfortable by the sight of an openly carried firearm. In the twelve years since Texas passed its concealed handgun licensing act, I have never once noticed another Texan carrying a concealed handgun, even though Texas has one of the highest rates of concealed carry in America. Properly concealed handguns are simply not noticeable to the average citizen. In fact, properly concealed handguns are often difficult to spot, even for a trained eye. Can you tell for certain which of the two men in THIS picture is carrying a concealed handgun? If you hadn’t been told that one of them is, would you suspect either of them of carrying a concealed handgun if you saw them on the street or in a classroom?

There is a popular notion among gun control advocates that a person must have years of training, through which he or she is conditioned to have superhuman reflexes and deadeye accuracy, in order to successfully use a concealed handgun for self-defense. This notion, however, is not supported by the facts. In cases like the recent massacre at Virginia Tech, the 1999 massacre at Columbine High School, and the 1991 massacre at the Luby’s restaurant in Killeen, Texas, the killers worked slowly and methodically, walking up to victims and shooting them at point blank range. It takes neither superhuman reflexes nor deadeye accuracy to defend oneself against a killer who walks from victim to victim, firing from only a few feet away.

In CNN’s interview with Emily Haas, one of the Virginia Tech gunman’s surviving victims, she described hiding under her desk, after her class heard gunshots in the room next door, “waiting and hoping he wouldn’t come in.” But he did come in, and now Emily’s professor and several classmates are dead. Perhaps, had someone in Emily’s classroom been armed with a concealed handgun, at least one person in that room could have done more than wait and hope.

In Dr. Suzanna Gratia Hupp’s 1992 testimony before the Missouri State Senate, in favor of a bill that was later passed, allowing citizens of Missouri to obtain concealed handgun licenses, Dr. Hupp described how she might have prevented the death of both of her parents, during the 1991 Luby’s Massacre, had she been allowed by the state of Texas to carry a concealed handgun:

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"I grew up in a house with no guns. My father was not 'Bubba Hunter.’ In fact he gave up fishing because he didn't like to clean fish. When I grew up and moved out on my own, I was given a gun by a friend, for self protection. I was taught how to use it and knew how to use it correctly, and I carried it my purse. I lived in the country by myself.

"Somewhere along the line I made one of my stupidest decisions—I was afraid that if somebody caught me with the gun in my purse, I could lose my license to practice [chiropractic medicine], lose my ability to make a living. So I took the gun out of my purse, and I left it in my car, which the laws in my state are kind of wishy-washy on. And I thought, 'Heck, if I needed it, it's probably going to be when I'm out on the road, in the middle of nowhere and, you know, my car is broke down or something.

"Everybody in here knows, I think, what happened in Luby's. But, in a nutshell—You know, we all think—and I know you do (indicating a committee member)—We all think that crime happens when you're walking down a dark alley. I've never been involved in any crimes. That's never happened in my life. I was with my parents AT NOON, on a bright sunny day, in Luby's, with a hundred and forty other people, in a town that's not a high crime town.

"This guy drives through the window and starts shooting. This guy has got no history—nothing. Well, my father and I immediately put the table up in front of us, and we all got down behind it, and I—You know your first opinion is “Is this guy robbing this place? What's the deal? What's going on?” And then you're realizing that all he's doing is simply shooting people.

"As he was working his way toward us, I reached for my purse, thinking, ‘Hah! I've got this son of a gun!’ Now, understand, I know what a lot of people think. They think, 'Oh, my God—Then you would have had a gunfight, and then more people would have been killed.’ Nuh-uh. No. I was down on the floor; this guy is standing up; everybody else is down on the floor. I had a perfect shot at him—It would have been clear; I had a place to prop my hand; the guy was not even aware of what we were doing.

“I'm not saying that I could have saved anybody in there, but I would have had a chance. That's all I'm saying is that I would have had a chance. My gun wasn't even in my purse—It was a hundred feet away in my car!"

This same testimony lead to the passing of concealed handgun licensing acts in both Missouri and Texas.

There is absolutely no evidence suggesting that the American people have any reason to fear letting concealed handgun license holders carry their concealed handguns on college campuses, the same way they already carry at grocery stores, shopping malls, and office buildings throughout the nation. Quite simply put, concealed handgun license holders, as a whole, do not contribute to America’s gun problems. In fact, concealed handgun license holders commit felonies at a rate on par with police officers. To date, no police officer has ever been killed by a concealed handgun license holder; however, there have been several well documented cases where police officers have been saved by legally armed citizens.

The issues of gun crime, gun control, and concealed handguns are complicated issues without simple answers, and we would all do well to form opinions on these issues based on careful examination of the facts, rather than on emotion.

I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

[rehmwa 2]

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......... seriously recommending a mass arming of college students and faculty members.

...... is suggesting that handguns be included in the orientation packets provided to entering freshman.

.........is suggesting that, along with laptop computers and chalkboard erasers, every teacher be issued a handgun.

...........is recommending that anyone carry a concealed handgun if he or she is not completely comfortable with the idea and competently trained and licensed to do so.

But, but, but, these are the foundation of the anti-gun talking points.

Way to ruin the fun, Douva.



BTW - I disagree with your proposal to arm all entering freshmen (by force if necessary) with fully automatic military weapons.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[unformed 0]

But if everybody has a gun, won't they be prone to getting angry and blowing someone head off? Giving guns to kids surely can't be a good idea.

This ad space for sale.

[mnealtx 0]

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But if everybody has a gun, won't they be prone to getting angry and blowing someone head off? Giving guns to kids surely can't be a good idea.

Isn't that what we just saw last week? 32 unanswered murders. 1 person with a weapon of their own could have ended it.

Additionally... we aren't talking about kids...we're talking about men and women, over 21 years of age, that have gone through the background checks and training to carry a concealed pistol.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Axe_Murderer 0]

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But if everybody has a gun, won't they be prone to getting angry and blowing someone head off? Giving guns to kids surely can't be a good idea.

Isn't that what we just saw last week? 32 unanswered murders. 1 person with a weapon of their own could have ended it.

Additionally... we aren't talking about kids...we're talking about men and women, over 21 years of age, that have gone through the background checks and training to carry a concealed pistol.

so, the answer to gun problems is ever MORE guns you Americans just can't get enough guns can you !

[mnealtx 0]

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But if everybody has a gun, won't they be prone to getting angry and blowing someone head off? Giving guns to kids surely can't be a good idea.

Isn't that what we just saw last week? 32 unanswered murders. 1 person with a weapon of their own could have ended it.

Additionally... we aren't talking about kids...we're talking about men and women, over 21 years of age, that have gone through the background checks and training to carry a concealed pistol.

so, the answer to gun problems is ever MORE guns you Americans just can't get enough guns can you !

No, the answer is NOT disarming the law-abiding and leave them at the mercy of criminals - sorry you can't wrap your mind around that.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Scoop 0]

I dont think giving hormonal teenagers weapons in such a densly populated environment as college could be any good for anyone. When the testosterone is flying around and arguments ensue do you really want guns to be at hand? Thats fucking stupid

[Zipp0 1]

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But if everybody has a gun, won't they be prone to getting angry and blowing someone head off? Giving guns to kids surely can't be a good idea.

Uh, no.

That's called murder. Sane, non-criminal types aren't big on murder and jail.

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Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

[craddock 0]

Here is an article by Fred Thompson about this.

https://secure.simpsonmfg.com/exchweb/bin/redir.asp?URL=http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=OTIwYzMyZmQ1YzQ1MDNmZTMyYzQ1Y2U3YTU4YzNmNGE=

That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side.

[Scoop 0]

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That's called murder. Sane, non-criminal types aren't big on murder and jail.

Instead of the thankfully rare massacres you will instead have hundreds dead every year across the country through petty arguments, disputes and accidents.

What a result!

[craddock 0]

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Thats fucking stupid

What's fucking stupid is that you people can't get it through your head that the pro CCW crowd is not talking about arming teenagers in schools. What's fucking stupid is that you people can't get it through your heads that the pro CCW crowd is not asking for more guns.

The argument is that those adults that are legal to carry should not have to leave their firearm in the car or at home to go ot certain places. History has shown us that it is at these "Gun Fee Zones" that the nut jobs tend to favor. There are a lot of whackos that don't like cops and feel they have unjustly ruined their lives, but we don't here about 32 people getting murdered at a rampage down at the local PD

That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side.

[craddock 0]

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Instead of the thankfully rare massacres you will instead have hundreds dead every year across the country through petty arguments, disputes and accidents.

What a result!

??????????

Teachers who hold CCW have not shot up people outside of their work enviroment, but you think they will start blasting the students over petty arguments.

What happens to a person once they enter school that makes them not be trusted with a firearm, even though they are responsible everywhere else?

That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side.

[Darius11 12]

Statistically: Toughening the gun laws do not decrease the crime rate making it easier for the average citizen to get guns does.

Here is what I don’t get from the anti gun people. Normal criminals (not the mentally disabled) do not go to a gunshop hand in there ID fill there name and information out, wait for it to clear then purchase a gun to go commit a crime. They purchase their guns illegally.

The UK is a great example. Are there no armed criminals in the UK? When they rob a bank do they use a stapler or guns?


Edit to add. There are a lot more good people in this world then bad. If the bad guys are going to be armed because they don't care about gun laws, I would prefer that the good guys could be armed easily as well.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[Douva 0]

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I dont think giving hormonal teenagers weapons in such a densly populated environment as college could be any good for anyone. When the testosterone is flying around and arguments ensue do you really want guns to be at hand? Thats fucking stupid

You didn't read the article, did you? It never suggests giving teenagers weapons.

I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

[Douva 0]

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That's called murder. Sane, non-criminal types aren't big on murder and jail.

Instead of the thankfully rare massacres you will instead have hundreds dead every year across the country through petty arguments, disputes and accidents.

What a result!

Again, you didn't read the article to which you're responding, did you?

I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

[rehmwa 2]

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I dont think giving hormonal teenagers weapons in such a densly populated environment as college could be any good for anyone. When the testosterone is flying around and arguments ensue do you really want guns to be at hand? Thats fucking stupid

You didn't read the article, did you? It never suggests giving teenagers weapons.

I think Scoop was doing a parody on the nutty positions the anti-gun team throws out.

Now, I have to go shoot on the lights in the living room and shoot off the lights in the office.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[SkyDekker 1,150]

If somebody truly meant harm and was insane enought o go off and kill multiple people, he or she wouldn't let the knowledge of guns stop him or her. Specially on a college or university, just build a bomb and blow the whole place up. Don't have to worry about any guns that way.

remember what the pro-gun side claims. If a bad man truly wants to do harm, he'll find a way. So, how does arming more people change that? If taking guns away completely wouldn't change anything, then the opposite wouldn't work either, for the same reason.

[Douva 0]

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If somebody truly meant harm and was insane enought o go off and kill multiple people, he or she wouldn't let the knowledge of guns stop him or her. Specially on a college or university, just build a bomb and blow the whole place up. Don't have to worry about any guns that way.

remember what the pro-gun side claims. If a bad man truly wants to do harm, he'll find a way. So, how does arming more people change that? If taking guns away completely wouldn't change anything, then the opposite wouldn't work either, for the same reason.

My article doesn't discuss allowing concealed carry as a deterrent; it discusses it as a means of self-defense.

I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

[Douva 0]

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I dont think giving hormonal teenagers weapons in such a densly populated environment as college could be any good for anyone. When the testosterone is flying around and arguments ensue do you really want guns to be at hand? Thats fucking stupid

You didn't read the article, did you? It never suggests giving teenagers weapons.

I think Scoop was doing a parody on the nutty positions the anti-gun team throws out.

Now, I have to go shoot on the lights in the living room and shoot off the lights in the office.

I deleted my first response, thinking you might be right, but after looking at his second post, I'm not so sure he was being sarcastic, so I'm going to let that response stand, for now.

I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

[SkyDekker 1,150]

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it discusses it as a means of self-defense.

Don't think the gun is going to defend you very much when a bomb goes off

[Scoop 0]

I did read the article but may have misunderstood the argument. I thought you were also supportive of allowing students to be armed. If thats not the case then I apologise

[Douva 0]

Your reply mentioned "hormonal teenagers;" however, if you read the article you should have seen that I only support allowing those people with concealed handgun licenses--people who have already undergone training, testing, and extensive background checks--to carry on college campuses. And as my article clearly states, those people are all over twenty-one years of age, therefore, clearly not teenagers.

You suggested that this would lead to countless accidents and shootings over minor arguments; however, if you read the article, you should have seen that these same people are already carrying concealed handguns in their off-campus lives, without incident. So either you didn't read the article, or you had no rebuttal to the arguments made by the article and chose, instead, to reply to the popular misconceived notions of concealed carry on college campuses.

I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

[Douva 0]

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it discusses it as a means of self-defense.

Don't think the gun is going to defend you very much when a bomb goes off

Bombs didn't kill anyone at Virginia Tech or the Killeen, TX, Luby's.

Concealed bulletproof vests don't protect police officers from rifle fire, but they still wear them. Something doesn't have to defend against every possible threat in order to be useful.

I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

[DZJ 0]

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But if everybody has a gun, won't they be prone to getting angry and blowing someone head off? Giving guns to kids surely can't be a good idea.

Isn't that what we just saw last week? 32 unanswered murders. 1 person with a weapon of their own could have ended it.

Additionally... we aren't talking about kids...we're talking about men and women, over 21 years of age, that have gone through the background checks and training to carry a concealed pistol.

If the age limit is 21, the vast majority of undergrads aren't going to be able to carry concealed, even if they wanted to and if their college permitted them.

To me this sets up the uncomfortable situation where the right to armed self-defense would seem to vary with whether or not an individual is a young undergrad, a mature undergrad, a post-grad or a member of staff.

[unformed 0]

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But if everybody has a gun, won't they be prone to getting angry and blowing someone head off? Giving guns to kids surely can't be a good idea.

Isn't that what we just saw last week? 32 unanswered murders. 1 person with a weapon of their own could have ended it.

Additionally... we aren't talking about kids...we're talking about men and women, over 21 years of age, that have gone through the background checks and training to carry a concealed pistol.

If the age limit is 21, the vast majority of undergrads aren't going to be able to carry concealed, even if they wanted to and if their college permitted them.

To me this sets up the uncomfortable situation where the right to armed self-defense would seem to vary with whether or not an individual is a young undergrad, a mature undergrad, a post-grad or a member of staff.

And what's the problem with that? There's already college bars and events serving alcohol where the vast majority of the undergrad population can't attend. All it takes is ONE person in a class.

This ad space for sale.