Botched execution halts Floridas justice by death.

[BannanaGirl 0]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/6185007.stm?ls

Well. Not very nice huh? I find this case rather disturbing more for the fact that this guy had already served 27 years before they cock up sending him off.

I was wondering how others felt about this.

[Skyrad 0]

I think I'd rather of had his death than the death of this man

http://edition.cnn.com/US/9703/26/execution/

Florida have a history of screwing up exectutions. People want to have the death penalty but don't want to face up to what the reality of killing someone is all about. Death is never pretty.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[BannanaGirl 0]

The thing with capital punishment is what if you get it wrong (I mean murder an innocent). It is all well and good standing there and saying kill the bastard (you know I would probably do the same if it was a loved one of mine if I had no means of doing it myself), but how often do people get murdered who have done nothing except be in the wrong place at the wrong time?

I cannot say I am 100% against capital punishment, I don't like the idea of it. but I have not had to be fully faced with the impact of somebody killing someone close to me. I know the anger that comes with grief and I also know these families deserve justice, but at what cost?

Like you said people want this form of justice but are rarely able to face up to the gruesome facts of how difficult it is to extirpate these individuals. Apart from being wholey archaic is it really justice when someone sits on death row for 27 years before being executed half arsedly?

[Skyrad 0]

he sat on death row for 27 years just so the US could be as sure as it can be that they wern't going to execute an innocent man. I'm not naive enough to think that this means that they won't make mistakes and innocent people won't be executed by the state. (The guy in the link aboves last words were 'I'm still innocent' maybe he was maybe he wasn't) In general I'd be against the DP but having said that in some cases that are beyond any doubt where the man or woman openly confesses AND there is indisputable evidence then in some cases i'd be for it. For example in the case of the man in the link below. His death was aweful but I can't help feel that it was no less than he deserved.

http://www.themurdercompany.com/weblog/?page_id=92

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[BannanaGirl 0]

27 years to make sure someone is guilty of a crime they so called are confident they committed so much so they pass a death sentance. It stinks really.

If at the time of sentancing there is without ,as you suggest irrefutable evidence of their guilt, then condem them, kill them and be done with it. Why draw out the families anguish? 27 years is just short of how long I have been alive. It just seems incredible it has gone on as long as this.

That link you posted is truly shocking, like you though I have no sympathy for that man. But I still find it incredible it took years to execute him too.

Yet more money spent on lawsuits, filing appeals, keeping them in jail in a high secure wing. Letting him get fat on taxes.

[Royd 0]

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Well. Not very nice huh? I find this case rather disturbing more for the fact that this guy had already served 27 years before they cock up sending him off.

I was wondering how others felt about this.

Had he confessed to the crime instead of hoping to beat the system, he would have spent the rest of his time in prison, or not. In today's feel good society, someone might have felt sorry for him and allowed him out on parole.
As for his time on death row, the clock simply ran out on his opportunities for appeals.

As for the botched execution, I doubt that he suffered. There are people everyday who take lower doses of some of those drugs just for a buzz.
Besides, If he actually committed the crime, who should give a damned that he suffered for thirty minutes.
Maybe I'm a sick bastard, but I think that a person should die in the same way that they chose to take someone else's life, only more slowly.

[kallend 1,632]

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Maybe I'm a sick bastard, but I think that a person should die in the same way that they chose to take someone else's life, only more slowly.

Funny, in a different thread I'm sure you claimed to be a follower of Jesus. I can't imagine Jesus condoning your thinking. Have you read the Sermon on the Mount?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Scoop 0]

I wonder why they dont administer some sort of general anaesthetic then the lethal dose of whatever they use. It would be the most humane way of doing it.

Strange to see they still use hanging in one state as preferred method

[BannanaGirl 0]

In the UK now there are several high profile prisoners that maybe did not do it - there is evidence to suggest so. The recent case of Sion Jenkins (who so called bashed his adoptive daughters skull in with a tent peg) was recently released. The evidence was ambiguous at the best of times, going on his character (lying in a CV, hitting his wife a couple of times - not that that's right), and some DNA evidence that could have pointed to two resonible ways it got there. I found how he was villified in the media and the case against him somewhat medieval.

Had we had a death penalty he almost certainly would have swung for his apparent crime. It took them something like 5 years to eventually aquit him.

Maybe a success story in proving that the system can be wrong and can be corrected but still 5 years of that mans life, ruined and had he been sentanced to death maybe chopped for it before he was found innocent.

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As for his time on death row, the clock simply ran out on his opportunities for appeals.

A lot can happen in 27 years. I do believe there are people who can be reformed. I am not saying evil sadistic bastards like the guy in Skyrad's link but people who may have killed in a desperate time in a desperate moment.

I am not trying to encourage sympathy but to point out that sometimes the solution is not to take another life in a sorry saga. Nobody should take anothers life, it is appalling but if some good could come out of it and the felon is reformed then that is surely a better outcome than just killing them.

However I am very much divided what with being a mother and how I would react if someone did something to her. I would probably detact their head for them. It is a double edged sword.

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Maybe I'm a sick bastard, but I think that a person should die in the same way that they chose to take someone else's life, only more slowly.

Hmmm that is pretty harsh. The reality of beheading someone or shooting them must be beyond all comprehension. I would be very worried if we started wheeling cranes out into the streets and strangling people in the markets place on a wednesday afternoon.

[Scoop 0]

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I would be very worried if we started wheeling cranes out into the streets and strangling people in the markets place on a wednesday afternoon.

So would I, cranes are very expensive to hire

A lampost would suffice

[Skyrad 0]

Lets be honest, the DP isn't about justice its about revenge. That being so, who cares if it was a moments madness from an otherwise good person? If people were more honest about why societies kill as a punishment then it would make debating the DP alot more simple.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Andy9o8 0]

I find it very telling that, aside from South Korea (which has been very closely entwined with the US since the Korean War) and Japan (more or less ditto, obviously since 1945), the U.S. is the only modern, industrialized democracy (yeah, I know; it's a republic...) that still has an active death penalty. I think the example of the other nations speaks volumes.

South Korea has had an unofficial moratorium on executions since the last one in 1997.

Interestingly, the US is also the only modern, industrialized democracy that does not have universal health care for its citizens. Are those 2 statistics completely unrelated, or do they have some correlation to national ethics of compassion? Fair question for debate, too.

Know what? Google the phrase "most murders in the US" – and see the wealth of contradictory "information" out there. I won't take the time to copy & paste all the urls, but here are some of the claims:

Most murders in the US are:

- committed by white people.
- committed by black people.
- committed with guns.
- are linked to the gun culture.
- committed with NON-firearm weapons.
- have nothing to do with the number of guns in the US.
- committed as crimes of passion, usually between relatives or acquaintances.
- committed as part of predatory crime.
- committed by one criminal or gang member against another.

Clear as mud yet?

One thing I will note: sometimes wrongly-convicted people are later exonerated; and this is happening more often lately with the advancement of DNA science. A wrongly imprisoned person can be freed; a wrongly-executed person will stay dead.

[Butters 0]

There is no need to waste more resources for an execution ... one gun, one bullet. I do believe in the death penalty, I do not believe in cruel and unusual punishment.

PS: I do not like cancer, I do not want cancer to suffer, I want cancer to disappear.

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[Skyrad 0]

Just goes to show you can prove anything on the internet. As for the dead person staying dead, I heard there was a precendent for resurection which happened in Israel some time ago.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Skyrad 0]

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PS: I do not like cancer, I do not want cancer to suffer, I want cancer to disappear.

Well I'm glad we got that sorted out.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[rehmwa 2]

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There is no need to waste more resources for an execution ... one gun, one bullet. I do believe in the death penalty, I do not believe in cruel and unusual punishment.

PS: I do not like cancer, I do not want cancer to suffer, I want cancer to disappear.

THANK YOU

I see Bannangirl talking about the family's feelings, I see Royd wanting the criminal to suffer.

Both of these are not justice, they are about revenge. Justice is simply removing the threat from society, not "getting even". The death penalty, as a form of justice, must be simply and clinically administered - just like excising a tumor - and with just as much emotion - ie, none.

If we can't understand that as a society, then we shouldn't have that punishment at all.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Skyrad 0]

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I would be very worried if we started wheeling cranes out into the streets and strangling people in the markets place on a wednesday afternoon.

So would I, cranes are very expensive to hire

A lampost would suffice

Actually Long drop hanging is one of the most humane and instant methods of death available.

The "Long drop" method as used in Britain.
In 1872, William Marwood introduced the "long drop" to Britain for the execution of Frederick Horry at Lincoln prison, as a scientifically worked out way of giving the prisoner a humane death. It is thought to have been invented by doctors in Ireland. Longer drops were in use elsewhere by the 1850's, but the short drop had been universal in Britain prior to this time and continued to be used until 1877 when Thomas Askern hanged John Henry Johnson at Armley prison Leeds on the 3rd of April.
The long drop method was designed to break the prisoner’s neck by allowing them to fall a pre-determined distance and then be brought up with a sharp jerk by the rope. At the end of the drop, the body is still accelerating under the force of gravity but the head is constrained by the noose which delivers a massive blow to the back and one side of the neck, which combined with the downward momentum of the body, breaks the neck and ruptures the spinal cord causing instant deep unconsciousness and rapid death. The later use of the brass eyelet in the noose tended to break the neck with more certainty. Due to its position under the angle of the left jaw, the head is snapped backward with such force that the posterior aspect of the foramen magnum cuts the spinal cord superior to the top vertebra and just a little inferior to the brain stem.
The accurately measured and worked out drop removed most of the prisoner's physical suffering and made the whole process far less traumatic for the officials who now had to witness it in the confines of the execution cell instead of in the open air.
The drop given in the 19th century was usually between 4 and 10 feet depending on the weight and strength of the prisoner. The weight used to calculate the correct drop is that of the prisoner's body. Up to 1892, the length of drop was calculated to provide a final "striking" force of approximately 1,260 lbs. force which combined with the positioning of the eyelet caused fracture and dislocation of the neck, usually at the 2nd and 3rd or 4th and 5th cervical vertebrae. This is the classic "hangman's fracture". The length of the drop was worked out by the formula 1,260 foot pounds divided by the body weight of the prisoner in pounds = drop in feet. Between 1892 and 1913, a shorter length of drop was used, probably to avoid the decapitation and near decapitations that had occurred with old table. After 1913, other factors were also taken into account and the drop was calculated to give a final "striking" force of around 1,000 lbs. The Home Office issued a rule restricting all drops to between 5 and 8 feet as this had been found to be an adequate range. The American Military manual also specifies a similar range for prisoners of between 120 and 200 lbs. body weight. In Britain, the drop was worked out and set to the nearest quarter of an inch (see below) to ensure the desired outcome.

In the late 19th century, there was a considerable amount of experimentation to determine the exact amount of drop and James Berry, who succeeded Marwood, had an unfortunate experience when hanging a murderer called Robert Goodale on the 30th of November 1885, who was decapitated by the force of the drop and of Moses Shrimpton who very nearly was. Where the drop was inadequate, the prisoner still strangled to death.
In 1887, Lord Aberdare was commissioned to report into hanging in Britain after these incidents and the unsuccessful attempt to hang John Lee on the 23rd of February 1885, because the trap would not open (he was reprieved after 3 attempts to execute him). The Aberdare Committee heard a lot of medical evidence and one witness, Dr. Marshall described a hanging in 1886 as follows.
"I descended immediately into the pit where I found the pulse beating at the rate of 80 to the minute, the wretched man struggling desperately to get his hands and arms free. I came to this conclusion from the intense muscular action in the arms, fore arms and hands, contractions, not continuous but spasmodic, not repeated with any regularity but renewed in different directions and with desperation. From these signs I did not anticipate a placid expression on the face and I regret to say my fears were correct. On removing the white cap about 1 1/2 minutes after the fall I found the eyes starting from the sockets and the tongue protruded, the face exhibiting unmistakable evidence of intense agony."
It is notable that there were quite a few problems with early lethal injections before the learning curve was surmounted.
In 1892, the Home Office issued executioners with a table of drops, which was revised in 1913 – see below.

1892 table 1913 table
Weight of prisoner Drop in feet & inches Weight of prisoner Drop in feet & inches
105 & under 8’ 0” - -
110 7’ 10” - -
115 7’ 3” 118 & under 8’ 6”
120 7’ 0” 120 8’ 4”
125 6’ 9” 125 8’ 0”
130 6’ 5” 130 7’ 8”
135 6’ 2” 135 7’ 5”
140 6’ 0” 140 7’ 2”
145 5’ 9” 145 6’ 11”
150 5’ 7” 150 6’ 8”
155 5’ 5” 155 6’ 5”
160 5’ 3” 160 6’ 3”
165 5’ 1” 165 6’ 1”
170 4’ 11” 170 5’ 10”
175 4’ 9” 175 5’ 8”
180 4’ 8” 180 5’ 7”
185 4’ 7” 185 5’ 5”
190 4’5” 190 5’ 3”
195 4’ 4” 195 5’ 2”
200 & over 4’ 2” 200 & over 5’ 0”


After 1913, where there were special reasons such as the prisoner having a diseased or weak neck, the Governor and Prison Medical Officer were to advise the executioner on the length of drop to be used.
It will be seen that the drops specified in the 1913 table are longer than those in the 1892 one as in some cases the prisoner’s neck had not been broken by the shorter fall. The official execution report on Alfred Stratton, who was hanged at Wandsworth in 1905, records evidence of asphyxia and states that the neck was not broken and this was not unusual.



Source (Very interesting site)
http://www.richard.clark32.btinternet.co.uk/hanging2.html#long

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Andy9o8 0]

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I see Bannangirl talking about the family's feelings, I see Royd wanting the criminal to suffer.

Both of these are not justice, they are about revenge. Justice is simply removing the threat from society, not "getting even".

Actually, it's both – and more. From what I recall from the "philosophy of punishment" area of my undergrad legal philosophy courses, societal justifications of punishment include some, several or all of the following:

- Incapacitation (removing the threat from society via banishment, incarceration, maiming or execution);
- Retribution (revenge; getting even);
- Specific deterrence (assuring the specific offender that if he offends again, his next punishment will be even more severe; e.g., sentence enhancements for recidivists);
- General deterrence (making an example of offenders as a way of deterring other members of society from committing crimes);
- Rehabilitation (punishment as a way of reforming an offender so that, once returned to society and/or full privileges, he will no longer have any inclination to commit crimes).

[kallend 1,632]

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I would be very worried if we started wheeling cranes out into the streets and strangling people in the markets place on a wednesday afternoon.

So would I, cranes are very expensive to hire

A lampost would suffice

Actually Long drop hanging is one of the most humane and instant methods of death available.

Only if it's done correctly. Apparently even at Nuremburg where everything was carefully orchestrated by the US Army, two of the condemned died by strangulation, and in one case the executioner had to enter the pit to "make an adjustment" before the prisoner died.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Scoop 0]

Reminds me of what I was told by a prison officer

"If you enter a cell to find someone hanging hold on their shoulders and jump on their feet to make sure the knot is secure"

[BannanaGirl 0]

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THANK YOU

I see Bannangirl talking about the family's feelings, I see Royd wanting the criminal to suffer.

Both of these are not justice, they are about revenge. Justice is simply removing the threat from society, not "getting even". The death penalty, as a form of justice, must be simply and clinically administered - just like excising a tumor - and with just as much emotion - ie, none.

If we can't understand that as a society, then we shouldn't have that punishment at all.

You are right my only feelings would be for revenge. This is a highly emotional reaction that is only natural. That is why I am uncomfortable feeling that, how can we administer the correct form of justice in a hightened state of emotions. That is why I find certain parts of the media playing on the victims families to justify the death penalty nauseating and only trying to heightening the publics emotions on the subject. Parading the loved ones around for sympathy - which they deserve ofcourse - kind of goes against the effective retribution we should seek. It can warp our persepctives. All this happening maybe before a conviction has even been passed.

As for removing the threat from soceity in a clinically and non emotional way, it is clear this is nigh on impossible to do. Again this man took 27 years to get to his death and when it happened it was a balls up. Nothing effective or clinical about that is there.

[Skyrad 0]

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I would be very worried if we started wheeling cranes out into the streets and strangling people in the markets place on a wednesday afternoon.

So would I, cranes are very expensive to hire

A lampost would suffice

Actually Long drop hanging is one of the most humane and instant methods of death available.

Only if it's done correctly. Apparently even at Nuremburg where everything was carefully orchestrated by the US Army, two of the condemned died by strangulation, and in one case the executioner had to enter the pit to "make an adjustment" before the prisoner died.

The long drop was not used at Nuremburg. The standard drop was employed.

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Standard drop hanging.
A standard drop, of around 4-6 feet, was used in many American hangings during the later part of the 19th century and into the early 20th century but was not worked out against the weight of the individual. It was considered as an advance on the short drop method previously used. A drop of this distance was often not sufficient to break the prisoner's neck, however, and many still died by strangulation, although in a lot of cases they were knocked unconscious by the force of the drop and the impact of the heavy coiled knot against the side of the neck. Occasionally, they were decapitated when the drop proved to be too long, as happened at the execution of Eva Dugan in Arizona in 1928. Standard drops were given to the 11 senior Nazis executed after the Nuremberg trials and several were reported to have died slowly. The Lincoln conspirators were given a drop of 5 feet at their hanging in 1865 and at least two of the four struggled for some time after they were suspended.

http://www.richard.clark32.btinternet.co.uk/hanging2.html#standard

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Andy9o8 0]

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I wonder why they dont administer some sort of general anaesthetic then the lethal dose of whatever they use. It would be the most humane way of doing it.

In theory, they do, but often in actuality, they don't. What often happens is that the first drug administered is intended to produce unconsciousness, but sometimes doesn't. The next drug is a neural paralyzing agent, inducing respiratory arrest. But if the subject is still conscious, he experiences the agony of suffocation, but the attending officials are unaware of this because his drug-induced paralysis prevents him from reacting in an externally-perceivable way. Eventually, he either dies of suffocation or as a result of a third drug, which produces cardiac arrest. Incidentally, cardiac arrest also causes pain to a conscious subject until the cut-off of blood supply to the brain induces unconsciousness.

[rehmwa 2]

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Actually, it's both – and more. From what I recall from the "philosophy of punishment" area of my undergrad legal philosophy courses, societal justifications of punishment include some, several or all of the following:

- Incapacitation (removing the threat from society via banishment, incarceration, maiming or execution);
- Retribution (revenge; getting even);
- Specific deterrence (assuring the specific offender that if he offends again, his next punishment will be even more severe; e.g., sentence enhancements for recidivists);
- General deterrence (making an example of offenders as a way of deterring other members of society from committing crimes);
- Rehabilitation (punishment as a way of reforming an offender so that, once returned to society and/or full privileges, he will no longer have any inclination to commit crimes).

also, closure for the victim or victims family, etc, I can't remember the other two, though, like the closure item, I think these are just subcategories of you good list

IMO - the only one that isn't some sort of impotent social experiment is your category of "incapacitation", the others are just ways to add artificial and even counterproductive confusion to sentencing....... I give a nod to general deterence, but that should be a 2ndary effect only and have no input to sentencing in a fair world, either.

So I am speaking from the bias of my personal thoughts on what justice should be based on.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[jakee 1,257]

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There is no need to waste more resources for an execution ... one gun, one bullet. I do believe in the death penalty, I do not believe in cruel and unusual punishment.

Two points. One, the death penalty wastes far more resources than incarceration for life long before the execution itself is reached.

Two, how many innocent people are you willing to kill for the priviledge of executing the guilty ones?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?