freeflybella 0 #1 December 5, 2006 I have a question - quite a few actually - and was inspired to post here by another thread on religion. I'm not coming from a very informed place so forgive me if my wording (and understanding) is incorrect. If Christianity (specifically Born Again Christians) holds that we are all sinners, is it "OK" to sin as long as we're admitting it and coming to church and giving money and trying to convert others? I mean, what's the goal? Getting to heaven? Living a good life? And does good mean sinless? And if so, if good means sinless - why don't you believe that those who do not proclaim Jesus as their saviour - but have led a good life - will get to your heaven? Is it because you believe that no one is ever sinless? If so, what's the point of it all? What about the Born Again Christian who has done a very horrible thing - continues to do a thing that harms people - but goes to church? How are we (the non Christians) to take it when that person preaches to us? How do Born Again Christians view that person? Are you all just as clueless as I am but know somewhere in inside that the answer lies in the belief that Jesus will someday (or already has) save you? Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #2 December 5, 2006 QuoteAre you all just as clueless as I am...? The answer is 'yes'. But only agnostics like myself can admit it..... ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #3 December 5, 2006 Read the parable of the Sheep and the goats in Matthew 25:31-46 and tell me if it is only confess (tithe, go to church, etc) and you get the free ticket "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. "Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.' "Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?' "The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.' "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.' "They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?' "He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.' "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." Also read Matthew 7:21-23 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
windcatcher 0 #4 December 5, 2006 My belief is that when you become "born again"-- GENUINELY-- there is a change in one's heart where one no longer desires to sin. It's not okay to sin, and then go back and repent so you can do it again. Obviously we as Christians will continue to commit acts that are sinful, but God looks at the heart. I believe a real believer is someone who doesn't want to sin, yet because he/she is not perfect will continue to sin until the day he/she dies. I've gotta go to work but I'll be back. Mother to the cutest little thing in the world... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflybella 0 #5 December 5, 2006 I really am trying to understand this religion/church. I also have someone in my life (not really 'in' anymore but I am still somewhat affected) who is Born Again and I think I might find some peace with the whole situation if I can have a little understanding of where they are coming from. Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NCclimber 0 #6 December 5, 2006 QuoteIf Christianity (specifically Born Again Christians) holds that we are all sinners, is it "OK" to sin as long as we're admitting it and coming to church and giving money and trying to convert others? I can't speak for the Born Agains or the Evangelicals, but my general belief is it has to do with what's in your heart. Do you honestly strive to be a good Christian? Or do you just make appearances. As far as sinning goes, we all have our weaknesses. Making a concerted effort to "repent" and asking for forgiveness (as well as help), when we backslide, is far different from doing whatever we please and then seeking absolution on Sunday. I've heard the later referred to as "one day a week Christians". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflybella 0 #7 December 5, 2006 Then why do you believe that those who give to others and care for others and have light in their hearts but do not say "Lord, Lord" will not get into heaven? Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #8 December 5, 2006 Quote Then why do you believe that those who give to others and care for others and have light in their hearts but do not say "Lord, Lord" will not get into heaven? As windcatcher says, it is about what is inside the man. JC said it another way when discussing Jewish dietary laws. It is not what goes into a man's mouth that defiles him, but rather what comes out of his mouth. Playing games with God and getting your "get out of hell free" card is not in JC's teachings. I told my scant crowd last SUnday, if you want to know what moral code to follow, get yourself a red-letter (Jesus words in red) edition of the Bible and read that. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflybella 0 #9 December 5, 2006 QuoteI believe a real believer is someone who doesn't want to sin, yet because he/she is not perfect will continue to sin until the day he/she dies. Do you think there are people who fit this description that do it without a church or a religion? Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chadkal 0 #10 December 5, 2006 You do not get into heaven by being good, or doing good things,....nobody is good enough. God's gift to the world,was his son, Jesus, He came to earth to take all of the sin of the world upon himself. It would take someone who is totally sinless to get into heaven. None of us are. But Christ was. And he has offered to take your sins upon himself so that you could be held totally blameless. All you have to do is except that he did this for you. So in answer to your question,....it makes no differance how good you are, how often you go to church, or how much money you give,...none of that matters,... all that matters is what is between you and God. Hope that helps your understanding, feel free to ask more if you would like. -------------------------------------------------- I am a greek midget Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,257 #11 December 5, 2006 Steve, are you a Born Again Christian? I was under the impression that where your beliefs differ from Paj's it's because he was BA and you're something different and more moderate?Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflybella 0 #12 December 5, 2006 Steve, are you Born Again? Is there a difference between Christian and Born Again Christian? QuotePlaying games with God and getting your "get out of hell free" card is not in JC's teachings. Say a woman came to your church and prayed. And it was known that she drank heavily and neglected her child. Yet she also reached out to people from her past and preached the bible to them - told them they were sinners and that if they didn't accept Jesus as their saviour they would burn in hell. Atheists/agnostics might look at her and see a hurt woman searching for answers or something to assuage guilt or a way to get help or whatever. How would other Born Again Christians view this person? Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #13 December 5, 2006 QuoteSteve, are you a Born Again Christian? I was under the impression that where your beliefs differ from Paj's it's because he was BA and you're something different and more moderate? I'm not one to wear labels as they are misinterpreted by others. Case in point, JOhn the Baptist was a forerunner of Christ and JC said he fulfilled the prophecy of the return of Elijah. But when asked if he was Elijah, John the Baptist, said he was a voice crying in the wilderness ... Why did he answer that way when he was (according to JC) the fulfillment of the prophecy about the return of Elijah before the Messiah (from the book of Malachi) Because it came with misinterpretations. Am I born again? Yes (See John 3) I've been born of spirit. However, being born again has many misinterpretations to it, so I seldom wear that label. Clear as mud? steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,257 #14 December 5, 2006 Quote Clear as mud? Yup! But I appreciate the answer anywayDo you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflybella 0 #15 December 5, 2006 Interesting description! QuoteAll you have to do is except that he did this for you. So god/Jesus wants the credit? Are you Born Again? I ask because from what I understood going to church, giving money and trying to convert others is required. Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #16 December 5, 2006 QuoteHow would other Born Again Christians view this person? I don't know how others (born again or not) view her. I'd say she needs help with abusing alcohol and instruction about child rearing. I'd tell her only God knows her heart but if she desires an audience for her good news she needs to create a thirst for her information about God. Her private life will either propel her message or distract from it. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chadkal 0 #17 December 5, 2006 alot of people do alot of thingsthat are wrong. It is not our place as Christians to judge them. Jesus taught to love others, we don't have to like what they do , but we do continue to show love to them and reach out to help them. Just going to church and praying does not make you a christian, nor does being a christian make you perfect, so you will always be able to find someone who professes to be christian who partakes in questionable acts,...The bottom line is that it all comes down to whats in your heart,....that is between you and God,....nobody else can see what is truely in your heart. -------------------------------------------------- I am a greek midget Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #18 December 5, 2006 QuoteQuote Clear as mud? Yup! But I appreciate the answer anyway I don't wear labels ... "born again" in our world today is more a label than a description. Is that better? steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chadkal 0 #19 December 5, 2006 Yes I am born again,....and there is no other requirement other than Christ. You do not have to attend a church, pay money or convert others to be born again,... it is simply about a realtionship between you and God. -------------------------------------------------- I am a greek midget Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflybella 0 #20 December 5, 2006 I really have alot of respect for that reply. I still struggle with why there needs to be a show of faith - why those who follow a formal religion can't believe that someone who doesn't follow religion can't be on the same path in life that they are. And also how a sinner preaching to another sinner is supposed to inspire the faith needed to look beyond the hypocrisy and truly believe? But your answer to my hypothetical seems valid/rational with or without a religious context. Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,257 #21 December 5, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuote Clear as mud? Yup! But I appreciate the answer anyway I don't wear labels ... "born again" in our world today is more a label than a description. Is that better? Yeah its cool. I get what you mean, even if the specifics are a bit beyond meDo you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflybella 0 #22 December 5, 2006 Maybe different churches have different requirements of their followers? Your and Steve's replies seem to come from a different teaching than the one I have been exposed to. What's your take on this? http://www.wayofthemaster.com Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stumpy 256 #23 December 5, 2006 Quote I still struggle with why there needs to be a show of faith - why those who follow a formal religion can't believe that someone who doesn't follow religion can't be on the same path in life that they are. I think if you could answer that half the threads in SC would disappearNever try to eat more than you can lift Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #24 December 5, 2006 I remember in 1984 I went to Hawaii and I saw a street preacher wailing against the crowd. I said to my wife "He's doing a lot of good for Jesus, ain't he?" Smugly I went on my way. Later I came back by and he was praying with someone in tears. It was easy for me to criticize his method because it sure wasn't mine. However, while I was baking my brain on Wakiki he was leading someone to Christ. I pledged to never judge another man's method again. I stil have my opinions, but I leave the judging to God. I like what Robert Duvall's character in "The Aposotle" said. He was a charismatic preacher in Bayou country, LA. He watched a catholic priest bless boats. He said.'You do it your way, and I do it mine, but we both get it done, Praise the Lord!" steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflybella 0 #25 December 5, 2006 QuoteYou do it your way, and I do it mine, but we both get it done, Praise the Lord!" Definitely NOT what I'm referencing. Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
