The God Delusion - Richard Dawkins

[peregrinerose 0]

How does your 'testing' of God in your life differentiate between an external deity working through you and your own subconscious/gut instinct/intuition guiding your life?

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[skysaintj 0]

Quote

How does your 'testing' of God in your life differentiate between an external deity working through you and your own subconscious/gut instinct/intuition guiding your life?

I'm gonna try and explain it simple as possible ...

I have millions of times gone through the same exercise - I follow my gut feel and instinct and end up in a mess in such a mess sometimes that I'm ready to explode and kill and destroy because of either frustration or sadness or circumstances etc.. every time I realized at some point that I might have moved away from God and he's waiting for me to ask his guidance ... and every time I did pray again and asked him to please help here ...he showed me why I had to go through that and then showed me the way forward sometimes just showing me how much he does love us etc..

Ok - I'll try a recent example

One of My best friends(Francois) for 15 years died recently but I could see God work the whole situation to that point ..

Francois never believed in God or anything related etc...He was a brilliant person and his company was always enjoyed wherever he went...He got involved with a woman which seemed very sweet at first ..she was a heroin addict for 14 years and eventually slowly got him to take a hit and then another and then another and then disaster ..this went on for years in which I slowly but surely lost my best friend and his wonderful Christian parents lost their son to the drug as he stole from them,lied to them , avoided them , stole from all of our friends and basically changed from the most likeable guy to an asshole and nobody knew what to do - his parents sent him to rehab twice ..he was there for a few months got back was ok'ish for a little while but then slipped into the same shit again ...after some time his family and friends was filled with sadness me and his brother decided that we should try one more time as he heard of a rehab that also supports Christian beliefs so we sent him there - he was there for 3 months after being on H for 6 years everyday going from 80 kgs to about 59kgs ...He came back a new person - He picked up weight we could actually sit down & talk to him again ..Francois was back !! He said that He found God in all this and that He never knew what God was about until He picked Him up from complete ruin and that He now wants to tell so many people about thisand help others with similair ideas and problems ... His parents were delighted and cried from happiness .. there was life again ! ...2 weeks later Francois passed away in his sleep and until today it is not explained by doctors etc..

Now if you were there I would probably be different cause I can't explain all the detail here - but I believe because of his addictive personality Francois would have slipped into doing H further down the line(within a few days if the opportunity was there) - God took him away it was the right time ..As the prodigal son in the Bible returned to his family and friends to delight them again and God gave then peace before taking him away - His parents are at peace today because they also know how God works ...Now you can say this and that and what why and so on and so forth but this is just a recent example , there have been millions of these type of things that I can only describe as God cause I cannot , taking everything into consideration explain it otherwise - it's what the Gospel is about - Faith - it's supposed to be like that cause if it was all proof then everybody's choices would have been made for them.

If at first, the idea is not absurd, then there is no hope for it

[JackC 0]

Quote

God is not testable, therefore is not a hypothesis.

Nowhere in the definition of hypothesis does it say the proposal actually has to be testable, merely that it needs more testing before it can be elevated to the lofty status of theory. That's why string theory is controversially named, it's actually a hypothesis in as much as it hasn't been and probably can't be tested. God may be an untestable hypothesis, but it is still a hypothesis.

Quote

And gravity is just a theory. Like evolution.

Here are some more scientific laws:
The law of thermodynamics
Hook's law of elasticity.
The ideal gas law
The law of conservation of energy
Conservation of momentum
Coulombs law.
Kirchoff's circuit laws
Keplers law of planetary motion
Planck's law of blackbody radiation
The speed of light is a constant
Stefan-Boltzman law

I'm not making this up, they're actually called laws. A scientific law is a description of an observed phenomenon. Kepler's Laws of Planetary Motion for example describe the motions of planets but they do not explain why planets behave that way. Gravity is a law although General Relativity which explains gravity is a theory.

[philh 0]

this why i think religion is so fucked up:


"I believe because of his addictive personality Francois would have slipped into doing H further down the line(within a few days if the opportunity was there) - God took him away it was the right time .."
seems to be implying that your sadness of your friends death is less than your sadness that he had a heroin problem! I have known people to take drugs that I wished didnt but i never would have preffered it if they were dead. This represents one of the biggest problems of religion and it is why religious belief affects everyone. If we believe that there is an after life then we are less likely to value life.Why did medieval torturers enact such cruel terror? perhpas because they believed there was a crueler terror waiting afterwards they could turn people away from; why did islamic terrorists hijack planes and crash them into buildings? perhaps becuase they believed they would leave themselves and other to paradise? I could go on but I think you see the point when belief in after life becomes more widespread then the value of our current lives is diminished. That is a dangerous situation for society to be in and that is why it matters so much if religion is really true , not just whether it feels good.

[Royd 0]

Quote

This represents one of the biggest problems of religion and it is why religious belief affects everyone. If we believe that there is an after life then we are less likely to value life.

Sort of like when the govt. sets itself up as the endall to problems. Don't worry, you won't have to get a job or improve your life. We'll take someone else's money and give it to you. Just stay on the plantation and don't stir up a lot of trouble.

[jcd11235 0]

Quote

Quote

God is not testable, therefore is not a hypothesis.

Nowhere in the definition of hypothesis does it say the proposal actually has to be testable, merely that it needs more testing before it can be elevated to the lofty status of theory. That's why string theory is controversially named, it's actually a hypothesis in as much as it hasn't been and probably can't be tested. God may be an untestable hypothesis, but it is still a hypothesis.

Quote

And gravity is just a theory. Like evolution.

Here are some more scientific laws:
The law of thermodynamics
Hook's law of elasticity.
The ideal gas law
The law of conservation of energy
Conservation of momentum
Coulombs law.
Kirchoff's circuit laws
Keplers law of planetary motion
Planck's law of blackbody radiation
The speed of light is a constant
Stefan-Boltzman law

I'm not making this up, they're actually called laws. A scientific law is a description of an observed phenomenon. Kepler's Laws of Planetary Motion for example describe the motions of planets but they do not explain why planets behave that way. Gravity is a law although General Relativity which explains gravity is a theory.

If a "hypothesis" cannot be tested, it is merely an idea. What makes it a hypothesis is that it is a starting point for further testing/observation.

String Theory is not currently testable.

Many theories in science are known as laws, since they have withstood the test of time. Nonetheless, they are still technically only theories, models that can be used to predict future results/observations.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[JackC 0]

Quote

If a "hypothesis" cannot be tested, it is merely an idea. What makes it a hypothesis is that it is a starting point for further testing/observation.

Well I disagree, just because you can't do much by way of testing doesn't mean that the idea wasn't a reasonable starting point. Anyway, I think you can test some aspects of god's alleged properties. Answering prayers for instance, you could test that. But if you want to relegate god from "hypothesis" to "idea", I wont object.

Quote

String Theory hypothesis idea is not currently testable.

Yup, that's what I said. More or less.

Quote

Many theories in science are known as laws, since they have withstood the test of time. Nonetheless, they are still technically only theories, models that can be used to predict future results/observations.

Well, Scientific Laws are descriptions of a phenomonon whereas Scientific Theories are explainations of why that phenomemon happens. With that definition, a theory can never become a law and a law can never have been a theory.

Take Stefan-Boltzmann Law for instance. P~T^4 doesn't tell you a damn thing about why blackbodies emit radiation proportional to the fourth power of temperature just that they do. To find out why, you need Quantum Theory

[kallend 1,649]

Quote

Quote

God is not testable, therefore is not a hypothesis.

Nowhere in the definition of hypothesis does it say the proposal actually has to be testable, merely that it needs more testing before it can be elevated to the lofty status of theory. That's why string theory is controversially named, it's actually a hypothesis in as much as it hasn't been and probably can't be tested. God may be an untestable hypothesis, but it is still a hypothesis.

Quote

And gravity is just a theory. Like evolution.

Here are some more scientific laws:
The law of thermodynamics
Hook's law of elasticity.
The ideal gas law
The law of conservation of energy
Conservation of momentum
Coulombs law.
Kirchoff's circuit laws
Keplers law of planetary motion
Planck's law of blackbody radiation
The speed of light is a constant
Stefan-Boltzman law

.

Many of those "laws" are just approximations anyway. Hooke's law and the "ideal" gas laws are approximations to observed behavior, as is Ohm's Law.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[ExAFO 0]

I got a snake, mang.



One time I fed it some beer. It was slithering this way and that. It was all fucked up....

Illinois needs a CCW Law. NOW.

[skysaintj 0]

Quote

this why i think religion is so fucked up:


"I believe because of his addictive personality Francois would have slipped into doing H further down the line(within a few days if the opportunity was there) - God took him away it was the right time .."
seems to be implying that your sadness of your friends death is less than your sadness that he had a heroin problem! I have known people to take drugs that I wished didnt but i never would have preffered it if they were dead. This represents one of the biggest problems of religion and it is why religious belief affects everyone. If we believe that there is an after life then we are less likely to value life.Why did medieval torturers enact such cruel terror? perhpas because they believed there was a crueler terror waiting afterwards they could turn people away from; why did islamic terrorists hijack planes and crash them into buildings? perhaps becuase they believed they would leave themselves and other to paradise? I could go on but I think you see the point when belief in after life becomes more widespread then the value of our current lives is diminished. That is a dangerous situation for society to be in and that is why it matters so much if religion is really true , not just whether it feels good.

... He was my best friend for 15 years.

Have you ever had a best friend that turned into a heroin addict and then lie and steal from you and everybody around him ?

Have you ever felt the happiness when such a person gets healed ?

Have you ever considered that God might have something to to with you the universe within you and the big one outhere ?


I don't agree with religion in most areas but knowing God and religion is sometimes not on the same track because humans can really fuck things up.....

If at first, the idea is not absurd, then there is no hope for it

[philh 0]

i had a girlfriend who got screwed up form cocaine, I imagine its a similar experience. she was a christian, I still have Lee Sobels books that she gave me to try and convert me. Last time I saw her though she had given up both coke and god, not sure which drug was worse for her.

Of course Ive considered god has a role in the universe , I ve considered it and discounted it.( i was religious when i was younger.)
The reason for that is for every positive story you can tell me about the ffects of Christianity I can tell you a negative one. Thats just what we would expect in a world without god. If it were the way you implied why wouldnt all who turn to Christianity be better off?
let me give you an example of people that turned to Christianity and what happened to them:

Inj 1994 a number of refugee from the Rwandan genocide turned up at the parish of Ste. Famille hoping for sanctuary for the slaughter around them. Did god reach out and save them? No he did not, the local priest was a Hutu power sympathsier and according to 45 survivors who signed the book "In the eyes of the Survivors of Sainte Famille" he assited the interahamwe in the massacre that followed.

you can read more here
http://allafrica.com/stories/200612010793.html?page=2
about the guilt of the Church in the Rwanda massacres.
to give you the most important bit here;
"William Church, the Kigali-based director of the Great Lakes Centre for Strategic Studies, has no doubt that the Catholic Church in Rwanda stands accused.

"The history of the church in Rwanda is interwoven with the state control apparatus," he said. "For 40 years this was the Catholic Church after independence. There were very few other religious organisations. The Catholic Church did the bidding of the power elite. It took part in the genocide and many leaders were part of the planners."

Now if you are going to conclude becuase you've seen the beneficial effects of Christianity that god exists, why do you not conclude the opposite when you see comments like the ones above? i suggest again that you are guilty of data mining ie you select a section of the data set that supports your conclusions and ignore others that are equally valid becuase they don't. That is never a way to come to sensible conclusion.
Moreover as I have said before but never got a proper response. Truth is about correspondance with facts it has nothing to do with how useful, pleasent or effective it is. So even if were the case that everyone who turned your religion showed improvement in their lifes, it would have no bearing on whether the claims of that religion were true.

[billvon 2,435]

>Have you ever felt the happiness when such a person gets healed ?

I have a good friend who is currently healing herself in that way without any god involved. If being "born again" or converting to Islam or becoming a devout Jew helps people overcome their problems, then I think that's great. If they do it without any new religious beliefs, that's great too.

[SuperKat 0]

I'm going to be impartial here. I'm a Christian who attends services in a non-denominational church.

Quote

His beliefs absolutely do impact me in a negative way; directly and indirectly.

Just like anything else, he should read the signs and just back off and respect your ideals.

Quote

I am constantly subjected to his criticism and abhorrence that I am an atheist.

I'm sorry to hear that. That must be quite annoying and probably hurtful to you, unless you've developed thick skin already.

Quote

He buys me books about Christianity, frequently quotes me bible verses that he then expects me to argue against.

He's going a tad bit overboard here. He's practically shoving it down your throat which is totally opposite of what Christians that have a true relationship with Christ in their hearts would do.

Quote

Inevitably when he realizes that I am no more likely to become saved by Jesus than I am to join a magic pixie cult, he gets angry at my pestilence and tells me that he has to convert me in order to save my soul from eternal damnation, because after all, I am his sister and he loves me.

Clearly his intentions mean well but his approach lacks tactfulness and he's way too aggressive.

Quote

His faith says that there is no use for science.

That's a pile of crap. I'm shocked to hear that his denomination feels that way about science. Science helps us learn our universe and the world we live in, it cures diseases, it helps to make life convenient, it creates a better tomorrow and all that good crap. It's a shame. It's a darn shame!

Here's what it boils down to. Your brother is going way over the top to try to convert you. This is totally opposite of what Christians should do. He should have only given you the good news (gospel), prayed for you , and then left it as that! You simply cannot change another person's heart! It's not possible. Only God can do that and your bro should have known that. Going the extra 100 miles or going above and beyond is not the way God wants us to spread his good news. Now as far as his denomination being a cult goes, I cannot judge others but I will give my opinion. Christians who attend non-denominational church services have what we call "a relationship with Christ through our heart."We don't judge atheist or other religious beliefs. We believe that there are millions of good people out there that are non Christian. We tell them the Good News, pray for them and that's that! That's where it ends. God takes care of the rest. The other Christians that curse you, belittle you, are bitter towards you or get angry at you, etc clearly are not being true to what God wants us to do. We're not superior than anyone out there, Christian or Not. Christians need to get a grip on this. Believe you me those Christians that believe that they are superior to you or even judge you have a little surprise coming to them when they meet God and it's not going to be pleasant.

So that's my take on it. Let the flames re-ignite!

What's the most you ever lost in a coin toss, Friendo?

[philh 0]

Im really glad you are a Chrisitan that likes science. But perhaps you hsouldnt be suprised to see many Christians dont, after all in the bible we see passages condemming natural philisophy such as:

Colossians 2:8
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ

or when as so often in the bible illness is attirbuted to demonic spirits, here on of may examples:

Matthew 12:22 (
Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw.

or that anything is possible through faith(if thats so why do research, just prey/)

Luke 17:6
And the Lord said, If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey you.

[pajarito 0]

Just thought this was funny. Scroll down this page and click on the video feed with Richard Dawkins.

[stallboy 0]

I think that a religion's attitude to science is shaped by its desire to exercise control on its followers. Those that desire the greatest control tend to extend God as an explanation to more things and therefore see the scientific viewpoint as more of a threat.

Religion is like most things, taken in moderation it could be beneficial, it's the addicts you have to watch out for.

[Zenister 0]

Quote

>Have you ever felt the happiness when such a person gets healed ?

I have a good friend who is currently healing herself in that way without any god involved. If being "born again" or converting to Islam or becoming a devout Jew helps people overcome their problems, then I think that's great. If they do it without any new religious beliefs, that's great too.

most injuries of any sort require some form of external support.. which is perfectly fine.
when that external support attempts to consume your life and convince you NOTHING you did was the result of your efforts, but instead came from the 'support' instead.. there is a HUGE problem..

i doubt many people would use a crutch that slowly grafted itself to your arm, until you could not seperate it from you. All the while whispering how important it was that you do as it decreed or become crippled forever, and yet other 'injured' types turn to Religion for support, when it does exactly that.....

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[SuperKat 0]

Quote

Im really glad you are a Chrisitan that likes science.

Thanks but don't give me any credit, I'm just a regular schmuck like you.

Most Christians whom have a relationship with Jesus through their hearts acknowledge science but do not worship it. It's the basis of learning our world, our universe and us. It has shaped our lives tremendously. Technology alone has opened many doors for us. The study of anatomy of all living things helps us to understand our health, our genes, and our sicknesses, etc. There are way too many benefits to mention regarding what the study of science has given us and how we have advanced from it.

Now, what we believe is that God is the creator of all that is. All that is created is the fabric that is woven by God. The more a Christian learns about these things the more we can glorify our Almighty Creator. The bible does not contradict science. I'm going to stop there because this is where my expertise to argue this point leaves me because I have only been a Christian for 3 years now and I have so much to learn.

You can look up www.carm.org - for some interesting reading regarding Science and Christianity

www.equip.org - Ask Hank Hanegraaff he's an expert on debating issues regarding the bible.

The Spherical Shape of the Earth - "He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in" (Isaiah 40:22). The Hebrew language did not have a word for "sphere." Circle is quite sufficient.

The Earth is suspended in nothing - "He spreads out the northern [skies] over empty space; he suspends the earth over nothing" (Job 26:7).

The Stars are Innumerable - "He took him outside and said, "Look up at the heavens and count the stars -- if indeed you can count them." Then he said to him, "So shall your offspring be" (Genesis 15:5).

The Existence of Valleys in the Seas - "The valleys of the sea were exposed and the foundations of the earth laid bare at the rebuke of the LORD, at the blast of breath from his nostrils" (2 Samuel 22:16).

The Existence of Springs and Fountains in the Seas - "In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, on the seventeenth day of the second month -- on that day all the springs of the great deep burst forth, and the floodgates of the heavens were opened" (Genesis 7:11). See also Gen. 8:2; Prov. 8:28.

The Existence of Water Paths (Ocean Currents) in the Seas - "O LORD, our Lord, how majestic is your name in all the earth!...When I consider your heavens, the work of your fingers, the moon and the stars, which you have set in place,...You made him [man] ruler over the works of your hands; you put everything under his feet...the birds of the air, and the fish of the sea, all that swim the paths of the seas" (Psalm 8:1,3,6,8).

The Hydrologic Cycle - "He wraps up the waters in his clouds, yet the clouds do not burst under their weight" (Job 26:8).

"He draws up the drops of water, which distill as rain to the streams; the clouds pour down their moisture and abundant showers fall on mankind" (Job 36:27-28) -

"The wind blows to the south and turns to the north; round and round it goes, ever returning on its course. All streams flow into the sea, yet the sea is never full. To the place the streams come from, there they return again (Ecclesiastes 1:6-7).

The Concept of Entropy - "In the beginning you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands. They will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment. Like clothing you will change them and they will be discarded" (Psalm 102:25-26).

The Nature of Health, Sanitation, and Sickness - The listing for this section is too large for this page. But the scriptural references are Leviticus chapters 12 through 14.

I cut and pasted that from www.carm.org

What's the most you ever lost in a coin toss, Friendo?

[philh 0]

The Spherical Shape of the Earth
It is well known that the ancient model of the Earth was a disc and the sky a dome, this is consistent with the quote you gave, spreading a tent out over a disc wouldn’t be so hard, spreading it over a sphere would.
Furthermore you ignore may quotes in the bible that imply the Earth is flat
“"I saw a tree of great height at the centre of the earth; the tree grew and became strong, reaching with its top to the sky and visible to the earth's farthest bounds." (Daniel 4:10-11)”

“The devil took him [Jesus] to a very high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world in their glory."

Both of these quotes are only possible if the world if flat. So no the bible doesn’t say the world is a sphere, it does say it is a circle, which some modern Christians have convinced themselves is the same as a sphere, it isn’t.

The Earth is suspended in nothing
Actually the Earth is suspended in space time. Mass distorts the fabric of this object and causes gravity If the bible had said the Earth was suspended on an object I’m sure a few believers would say it supports relativity Its common to make things fit the way you want them to.
You might also want to consider this passage
“JOB 38:4 Where was thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
This could be used to come to the conclusion that Earth is suspended on something. With a big enough book its easy to find things fit what you want them to.


The Stars are Innumerable - "He took him outside and said, "Look up at the heavens and count the stars -- if indeed you can count them." Then he said to him, "So shall your offspring be" (Genesis 15:5).

HHmm, the number of people on the planet is roughly 6 billion. The number of starts in the universe is estimated to be 50,000 billion billion. Seems like the bible is only out by 8333 billion. Vague predictions are easy to make and hard to disprove that’s why we dot pay attention to them.


Why don’t you read Genesis? you’ll find the stars are created after the Earth That is in complete contradiction to modern science. But you seem to ignore that point and go with this silly vague predictions.

The Existence of Valley in the Seas
You can look from a ship and see the sea floor is not always flat, big deal.

“The Existence of Springs and Fountains in the Seas - "In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, on the seventeenth day of the second month -- on that day all the springs of the great deep burst forth, and the floodgates of the heavens were opened" (Genesis 7:11). See also Gen. 8:2; Prov. 8:28.”

You want to tell us the story of a 600 year old man is a scientific one. Is this a joke? All scientific estimates of the age of humans in that are in the region of 3 to 4 decades and you calmly present a story of a man living to 6 centuries as scientific. Furthermore if you read up about ancient model of the Earth that the Hebrews were inspired from you will see the floodgates of heaven opening up is likely to be a literal statement. The belief was the Earth was a disc with the stars set in the firmament and water above it!
For more info I suggest reading this:
http://www.mukto-mona.com/new_site/mukto-mona/Articles/brent_meeker/cosmology.htm

The Existence of Water Paths
This is a pretty vague statement even if taken literally, so what. I have snorkelled in very shallow waters and seen paths in the sea. The statement also seems to imply man is at the top of the food chain “you put everything under his feet” this is a statement ignorant of the modern understanding of the world which includes the fact micro organisms feed off and kill humans.

The Hydrologic Cycle
This actually contradicts the story of the flood, because the hydrologic cycle cannot account for the amount of water it would need to cover the whole Earth in forty days. Even to cover Mount Ararat in forty days it couldn’t be done, let alone the much higher mountain ranges of the Andes and the Himalaya.

The Concept of Entropy - "In the beginning you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands. They will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment. Like clothing you will change them and they will be discarded" (Psalm 102:25-26).
They won’t all wear out like garment some stars for example will explode dramatically, they are called super nova.

[pajarito 0]

Quote

Furthermore you ignore may quotes in the bible that imply the Earth is flat
“"I saw a tree of great height at the centre of the earth; the tree grew and became strong, reaching with its top to the sky and visible to the earth's farthest bounds." (Daniel 4:10-11)”

Quote

“The devil took him [Jesus] to a very high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world in their glory."

Both of these quotes are only possible if the world if flat. So no the bible doesn’t say the world is a sphere, it does say it is a circle, which some modern Christians have convinced themselves is the same as a sphere, it isn’t.

And you guys speak of supposed mental gymnastics required of Christians. Yours is very impressive. I give you a 9.8.

• Quote

[JackC 0]

Quote

Quote

Furthermore you ignore may quotes in the bible that imply the Earth is flat
“"I saw a tree of great height at the centre of the earth; the tree grew and became strong, reaching with its top to the sky and visible to the earth's farthest bounds." (Daniel 4:10-11)”

Quote

“The devil took him [Jesus] to a very high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world in their glory."

Both of these quotes are only possible if the world if flat. So no the bible doesn’t say the world is a sphere, it does say it is a circle, which some modern Christians have convinced themselves is the same as a sphere, it isn’t.

And you guys speak of supposed mental gymnastics required of Christians. Yours is very impressive. I give you a 9.8.

So if you were stood on a mountain top in the USA and you wanted to see Japan, how tall would the mountain have to be?

I think you need geometry for that, not gymnastics.

• Quote

[Zenister 0]

Quote

I cut and pasted that from www.carm.org

fine examples of the type of people who cant tell an apple from an orange...

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[Vallerina 2]

I'm about halfway through the book (it's taking me awhile since I'm supposed to be studying...and also because I haven't really been enjoying it.) I already didn't believe in god before reading it, btw.

I don't agree with Dawkins on the horrors of religion. He seems to have a very black and white approach to his book (either you believe in god and are ruining science, or you are smart.) There have been some interesting tidbits in his book, but I've been disappointed with it.

There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning

[pajarito 0]

Quote

So if you were stood on a mountain top in the USA and you wanted to see Japan, how tall would the mountain have to be?

I think you need geometry for that, not gymnastics.

I take it back. Some of the conclusions you guys come up with do not require mental gymnastics. As a matter of fact, they don’t require much thought at all. Nothing real is ever as simple as some of you make it out to be. You shouldn’t conclude anything in any written work by simply reading one sentence. Context is everything. Let’s look at more of the passage instead of only one verse.

Quote

I, Nebuchadnessar, was at home in my palace, contented and prosperous. I had a dream that made me afraid. As I was lying in my bed, the images and visions that passed through my mind terrified me. So I commanded that all the wise men of Babylon be brought before me to interpret the dream for me. When the magicians, enchanters, astrologers and diviners came, I told them the dream, but they could not interpret it for me. Finally, Daniel came into my presence and I told him the dream. (He is called Belteshazzar, after the name of my god, and the spirit of the holy gods is in him.)

I said, “Belteshazzar, chief of the magicians, I know that the spirit of the holy gods is in you, and no mystery is too difficult for you. Here is my dream; interpret it for me. These are the visions I saw while lying in my bed: I looked, and there before me stood a tree in the middle of the land. Its height was enormous. The tree grew large and strong and its top touched the sky; it was visible to the ends of the earth. Its leaves were beautiful, its fruit abundant, and on it was food for all. Under it the beasts of the field found shelter, and the birds of the air lived in its branches, from it every creature was fed.

In these visions I saw while lying in my bed, I looked, and there before me was a messenger, a holy one, coming down from heaven. He called in a loud voice: ‘Cut down the tree and trim off its branches; strip off its leaves and scatter its fruit. Let the animals flee from under it and the birds from its branches. But let the stump and its roots, bound with iron and bronze; remain in the ground, in the grass of the field.”
Daniel 4:4-15

Daniel’s interpretation of the dream is found starting at verse 20. He sees that Nebuchadnessar himself is symbolized as the tree, that his authority would be taken away from him, that he would be driven away, but that his kingdom would remain. The dream was fulfilled.

It’s got nothing at all to do with describing the physical dimensions of the Earth. It was a dream. However, it requires the actual reading of the text to derive its meaning.

[JackC 0]

Quote

I take it back. Some of the conclusions you guys come up with do not require mental gymnastics. As a matter of fact, they don’t require much thought at all. Nothing real is ever as simple as some of you make it out to be. You shouldn’t conclude anything in any written work by simply reading one sentence. Context is everything. Let’s look at more of the passage instead of only one verse.




Daniel’s interpretation of the dream is found starting at verse 20. He sees that Nebuchadnessar himself is symbolized as the tree, that his authority would be taken away from him, that he would be driven away, but that his kingdom would remain. The dream was fulfilled.

It’s got nothing at all to do with describing the physical dimensions of the Earth. It was a dream. However, it requires the actual reading of the text to derive its meaning.

What about Jesus in the wilderness talking to the devil. Was that a dream too? The devil didn't actually take Jesus to the top of a mountain and show him all the kingdoms of the world?

The bible is chock full of this sort of stuff. As a book, it's a crap one considering it's authors were supposedly divinely inspired. It's so convoluted that it's virtually impossible to figure out, as whitnessed by 2000 years of people arguing about the "correct" interpretation. How do you know yours is correct? You don't.

You can only read it and think what it means to you. To me (and anyone who expects words to have their usual meanings) it's complete garbage. Your mileage may vary.