The God Delusion - Richard Dawkins

[karenmeal 0]

I just finished reading this book.. now I have to go back for a second time. I would highly recommend this book to people who are interested in reason and logic and also to those who aren't. I can think of so many people who I would like to buy this book for. Dawkins has said that his goal with this book is that religious people who read it will become atheists.

I love that Dawkins does not adhere to the normal cultural expectations of extreme sensitivity in the dicussion of religious issues. While his arguments may seem harsh given the superstitious nature of our culture, I have to agree with him that there is no reason to tip-toe lightly around religious subjects for fear of offending people.

Hopefully this book will provide me with some fodder to win back my brother from the clutches of the Southern Baptist movement.

I would love for a religious person to read this book and then respond to this thread. That is the sort of debate that I would be oh-so-happy to engage in.

"Life is a temporary victory over the causes which induce death." - Sylvester Graham

[ExAFO 0]

I like Pie.

Mmm...Pie...

When post again, bring pie.

Illinois needs a CCW Law. NOW.

[karenmeal 0]

Wanted:

Well-read and reasoned individuals with which to discuss interesting matters with.

Found:

A bunch of superstitious twits.

"Life is a temporary victory over the causes which induce death." - Sylvester Graham

[ExAFO 0]

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Wanted:

Well-read and reasoned individuals with which to discuss interesting matters with.

Found:

A bunch of superstitious stressed out law school studying/too fond of Weebl and Bob twits.

Fixed it for you.

Illinois needs a CCW Law. NOW.

[Squeak 17]

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Wanted:

Found:

A bunch of superstitious twits.

Not all of us fall into that category, but although you're preaching to the choir here (you like the pun) I'm wondering why you feel that your brother should be without religious faith? I'm a devout Athiest, but I do not want everyone else to fall behind my way of thinking. Whatever get you through the night is fine by me.
I only ask the you respect my NON beliefs as much.



So why you set on "converting" your brother, do his beliefs impact you in a negative way?

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[sweetmoose 0]

>>I can think of so many people who I would like to buy this book for.

I'll take a copy of the book if you're buying, lol. One good book I read, can't remember who it was by, was called "Athiesm, The Case Against God." Some parts of it were kinda drawn out and boring, but I liked a lot of the points that were made in it.

We die only once, but for such a very long time.

I'll believe in ghosts when I catch one in my teeth.

[karenmeal 0]

His beliefs absolutely do impact me in a negative way; directly and indirectly.

I am constantly subjected to his criticism and abhorrence that I am an atheist. He buys me books about Christianity, frequently quotes me bible verses that he then expects me to argue against. Inevitably when he realizes that I am no more likely to become saved by Jesus than I am to join a magic pixie cult, he gets angry at my pestilence and tells me that he has to convert me in order to save my soul from eternal damnation, because after all, I am his sister and he loves me.

Frankly, I feel like I lost my relatively simple-minded brother to a cult. He has never been book-smart or particularly inquisitive about things beyond flying airplanes, making money and other sorts of materialistic obsessions. Perfect for the Southern Baptist movement. He went to a Southern Baptist Student Union during college and well, it feels like we've lost him. He has lost what little ability he once had to exercise independent rational thought.

And what is worse than this, is he will soon be creating a new generation of automotons who are only capable of thinking inside the box that was presented to them upon birth. His faith says that there is no use for science. Which, I suppose if you truly believed with your heart of hearts that the earth was only several thousand years old and you had a book that told you all of history, why would you need science? Basically it would be just to make pretty observations about the way a god worked things out.

But I think that is sad.

Basically, I want to encourage my brother to exercise rational independent thought. Frankly I feel that the more people like him in the world, who advocate concepts such as blind faith, the worse the world is in general.

If I got my brother to admit that there was a very good chance this his belief system was wrong, that would be a huge success, because he would at least be thinking for himself. That is all that I want. If he thought about it and converted to a muslim and then back to a Southern Baptist, even that would be a step in the right direction. Like so many people, he is incapable of feeling like he can even begin to rationalize the matter of religion.

"Life is a temporary victory over the causes which induce death." - Sylvester Graham

[Samurai136 0]

I'll play ball.

Dawkins builds a strawman argument by defining a version of 'faith' that no theologian much less christian or any other religious person holds.

Dawkins critics charge that he ignorant of christian theology which he doesn't deny. Dawkins believes that "Christian theology is a non-subject. It is empty. Vacuous. Devoid of coherence or content. I imagine that McGrath would join me in expressing disbelief in fairies, astrology and Thor's hammer. How would he respond if a fairyologist, astrologer or Viking accused him of ignorance of their respective subjects?

The only part of theology that could possibly demand my attention is the part that purports to demonstrate that God does exist. This part of theology I have, indeed, studied with considerable attention. And found it utterly wanting."

In a very real sense Dawkins is preaching to the choir and is guilty of the same fanaticism he attributes to people who believe in god.

Point being, before you can dive into the question " Does God Exist?" you need to resolve some basic epistemic questions about belief, faith, and knowledge and ontologic questions about the meaning of what is there?

What does existence mean? Prove that I exist. Prove that other minds (people) exist.

Dawkins side steps entire aspects of philosophy as "non-subjects" which requires the reader to 'have faith or belief' that Dawkins is correct.

"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian
Ken

[Michele 1]

Karen, what if he thought for himself, and still had that opinion?

It's hard, having a prosyletizing family member. But the challenge here isn't to change him in the manner he's trying to change YOU, but to accept him as he is, warts and pimples and all, and love him anyway. You're doing the same thing - or wanting to do the same thing - that he's doing to you. He will like it equally as much as you do.

And there's nothing wrong, imho, with religion. I prefer spirituality, but like Squeak said, whatever gets you through the night.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[karenmeal 0]

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Dawkins builds a strawman argument by defining a version of 'faith' that no theologian much less christian or any other religious person holds.

Could you qualify this a bit more?

Because after having just read the Selfish Gene and The God Delusion in one week, I really have no clue what you are talking about.

As far as preaching to the choir, I think in a great sense, that is quite often inevitable in these sorts of matters. For someone to feel like he wasn't just addressing his arguments at atheists he would probably need to lie and say that he agrees with major aspects of Christianity or some other religion just to get people to listen. Without doing this, I can imagine that many Christians (or other religious folk) will disregard anything that comes out of his mouth as rubbish simply because he doesn't agree with them.

"Life is a temporary victory over the causes which induce death." - Sylvester Graham

[br0k3n 0]

For those that have not read the book, here is video of Dawkins discussing it...

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--+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+

[Samurai136 0]

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Basically, I want to encourage my brother to exercise rational independent thought. Frankly I feel that the more people like him in the world, who advocate concepts such as blind faith, the worse the world is in general.

If I got my brother to admit that there was a very good chance this his belief system was wrong, that would be a huge success, because he would at least be thinking for himself. That is all that I want.

That does suck. Since your brother is so simple minded you might try challenging him on the more basic philosophic foundations of faith, god, and existence.

It's difficult to have meaningful discussions with family members who blindly accept pre-digested thoughts/ beliefs.

"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian
Ken

[karenmeal 0]

If he thought for himself and still had that opinion, that would be fine. However, his research consists of essentially reading one book; over and over.

He learns small bits of other religions from his Sunday School teacher. (Likely handpicked bits designed to try and reinforce his belief system.) He has laughed while recounting to me the belief system of the Mormons. He somehow places a major distinction between his extreme beliefs and theirs; the Mormons being crazy in his view and destined for eternal damnation.

What scientist would ever gain any sort of success if they adhered to that style of research?

Oh.. and to add one more thing. If it were not for the fact that it's gotten so bad that I can't have a conversation with my brother without him trying to get me to talk religion, or without him reading me bible verses and praying for me over the phone, then I would not make any attempt to try to get him to investigate things a bit further. I never bring up the subject of religion around him. The fact that he has become so brainwashed over the last 5 years or so is really frightening and it was put a MAJOR strain on our relationship and family gatherings.

"Life is a temporary victory over the causes which induce death." - Sylvester Graham

[Royd 0]

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Frankly, I feel like I lost my relatively simple-minded brother to a cult. He has never been book-smart or particularly inquisitive about things beyond flying airplanes, making money and other sorts of materialistic obsessions.

So what makes you think that he would be swayed by the great, overwhelming logic of atheistic thinking.

This life is all you get, then you die like a dog. I can see why everyone wants to get aboard your train.

[karenmeal 0]

I can see why everyone may want to get aboard your train too. Believing in an afterlife where you're rewarded for all eternity just for doing as you're told and not exercising independent thought does sound awfully nice, doesn't it?

Unfortunately, I really highly doubt that that is the case.

If you read my previous posts, I don't need my brother to become an atheist to be happy. I just want him to think for himself. Unfortunately, his peers praise him for his blind faith.

"Life is a temporary victory over the causes which induce death." - Sylvester Graham

[Royd 0]

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If you read my previous posts, I don't need my brother to become an atheist to be happy. I just want him to think for himself. Unfortunately, his peers praise him for his blind faith.

I am a member of one of the largest SB churches in the nation and have always been encouraged to study the Scriptures for myself.

I come from a position that Jesus Christ actually existed and much of Old testament history can be verified. Jews still exist, the last time I heard.

There was a King Saul, King David, King Solomon, and a place called Babylon, run by a fellow named Nebuchadnezzer.

[karenmeal 0]

My point has obviously missed you.

Would you respect the work of a scientist who only studied one book ever? Or would you be skeptical of their conclusions? Please answer that question directly. I certainly hope that you would be highly skeptical of anyone who describes that as research.

But really, that is what you are doing. Basing your belief system all on one book. Talk about putting all your eggs in one basket. Sure, some historical events in the bible are true, in fact many works of fiction are loosely based around a collection of facts. The fact that several things in the bible can be verified with historical documents is actually fairly meaningless. Have you ever noticed in your reading of the bible (which I hope you have atleast read cover to cover once) that even the gospels don't agree? What about all the books of the bible that were left out due to not fulfilling various political agendas throughout the years? Don't you wonder about those theoretically inspired words of god and what gems of knowledge and inspiration you may be missing out on?


And let me guess.... at least one of your parents were/are Christians? Could it be, that you may have been brainwashed and lead to believe that the most righteous way to be is unquestioning?

Why would a god have given you a brain if you weren't meant to use it?

"Life is a temporary victory over the causes which induce death." - Sylvester Graham

[billvon 2,476]

> That is the sort of debate that I would be oh-so-happy to engage in.

I'll tell you what -

Read "Rocks of Ages: Science and Religion in the Fullness of Life" by Stephen Gould as a counterpoint, and tell me if your view changes at all. (I've read part of the God Delusion and disagreed with a few things Dawkins said.)

[karenmeal 0]

I will see if my school library has that book tomorrow.

I definitely disagreed with a number of things that Dawkins said. In particular I disagreed with his opinion that science will one day be able to discern the truth about the supernatural; specifically whether god(s) exist or not.

Frankly, I feel that if there is a supernatural realm, that defies natural laws, that much of science won't be of particular use to figuring that sort of thing out. I suppose that is where my agnosticism comes into play. I feel that if there is more than the natural world, that we'll never truly be able to know when or if we have it all figured out. But I do maintain my very very strong feeling that the Christian god is certainly not what it's about.

Edited to add:

Where did you disagree with Dawkins?

"Life is a temporary victory over the causes which induce death." - Sylvester Graham

[Royd 0]

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Would you respect the work of a scientist who only studied one book ever? Or would you be skeptical of their conclusions? Please answer that question directly. I certainly hope that you would be highly skeptical of anyone who describes that as research.

If the end result turned out to be useful to him, no problem.

Do you really think that students of Divinity only study one book?

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And let me guess.... at least one of your parents were/are Christians? Could it be, that you may have been brainwashed and lead to believe that the most righteous way to be is unquestioning?

I was raised Catholic. At the age of 17 I was done with it simply because the rituals made no sense to me.

From then, until the age of 30 I chased pleasure. At the end of the day, as the writer of Ecclesiastes says,"It is all vanity."

One Sunday I just deciced to go to a church. I think it was an Assembly of God. When I heard the Gospel preached straight forward I knew that it was true.

As I said earlier, my study is to strenghten my faith, not to tear it down. Kind of like you reading a book from a fellow atheist and saying, "Yea, that works for me."

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Why would a god have given you a brain if you weren't meant to use it?

Please read your statement out loud to yourself. I believe that you stated that your brother flys airplanes. Are these model airplanes or the real thing? No thinking involved there.

[Royd 0]

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That is the sort of debate that I would be oh-so-happy to engage in.

There's always a first time.

[karenmeal 0]

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If the end result turned out to be useful to him, no problem.

What if this scientist was working on vaccines for your kids, cancer cures that your wife or mother could benefit from.. or other sorts of research. C'mon, wouldn't you really rather the scientist did actual research and didn't just come to a conclusion based on one book? Maybe inadequate research could lead to a vaccine that causes autism in kids or maybe your wife or mother dies of cancer because she was fed magical herbs that an ancient tribal medicine book said would work.

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When I heard the Gospel preached straight forward I knew that it was true.

How did you know it was true? All of a sudden you were just enlightened with omniscience and the ability to sense truths? I know some people who see an advertisement on TV for a cold-prevention drug that they try, just knowing that it will work. One placebo effect later, and the cold-prevention drug has "proved" to them that it works and they will forever recommend it to friends despite awareness of a large scale double blind research trial which fails to provide evidence of efficacy. They convince themselves of the truth and then are stubborn to accept the facts.

"Life is a temporary victory over the causes which induce death." - Sylvester Graham

[kittikat 0]

Just wondering what people who have read this book thought of it... I am thinking of buying it for my BF for Christmas (he's an atheist - it isn't to change his beliefs, just for interest). Is it an interesting read? Thought provoking? Well argued?

I've read some of Dawkins's articles and saw a clip or two of him talking about religion, still not sure if the book would be worth it.

Also, I'm looking for a book on religion that basically describes all major religions, the history, how they were started etc. Not from a religious point of view, more from a historical point of view. Does anyone know of any?

Sorry, didn't mean to hijack the thread... just curious if others think the book is worth buying as well.

Good luck with your brother - I have no patience with people who won't think for themselves or won't consider other views / options. Maybe he feels that you are doing that as well? Would it work if you compromised - you read a Christian book, he reads this book?

[karenmeal 0]

I think that this would be a great book to buy for him.

Other favorites along this line are:

Why I Am Not a Christian - By Bertrand Russell

The Salmon of Doubt - By Douglas Adams (posthumous collection)



And I'm sorry but my books are all packed away due to a recent flood. I can look through the collection once I put things back and give some other suggestions.

On the brother note... I have read several Christian books for him. Unfortunately, to discuss those types of books with him, he would have to learn a lot about objectively assessing an argument and how research is actually done, specifically, the value of something that has been peer-reviewed. It is really a circular argument when he tends to cite one book as evidence for god.

"Life is a temporary victory over the causes which induce death." - Sylvester Graham

[Richards 0]

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Hopefully this book will provide me with some fodder to win back my brother from the clutches of the Southern Baptist movement.

I am curious. If being part of this religion makes him happy then why change it? Trying to push atheism on someone can arguably be seen as the equivalent of a churchgoer trying to convert someone to his/her religion. To each thier own.

Cheers

My biggest handicap is that sometimes the hole in the front of my head operates a tad bit faster than the grey matter contained within.