religion and morality

[Butters 0]

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Do as I say, not as I do. (How many people has your God killed? Is it a billion, a trillion, ....?)

None without cause. There is no one righteous. No one who seeks God. Do you think you're innocent? Have you kept the Commandments listed above? Where will you be going when you die? Heaven or hell?

No, No, Not Sure, Neither

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[jakee 1,257]

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However 100s of years before it happend scripture foretold of the Messiah suffering through the cross. THAT affirms scripture

And Nostradamus foretold 9-11, when you look at it after the fact. There are millions out there who will quite happily demonstrate for you how their horoscopes have always predicted what will happen to them.

Prophesies mean whatever you want them to mean. Thats why they're so popular.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[steveorino 7]

HAve you read Psalm 22? Just curious. BTW my point wasn't it was proof that God exist (I thought the scripture affirms that, but that wasn't my point) My point was MOST of the contradictions that are listed can be explained by a Bible college freshman.

steveOrino

[pajarito 0]

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I'm kinda dissapointed though, back in the day it used to be a lot of fun arguing with you Paj. You were the one guy on your side who could always be counted on to really explain your position and argue the points people brought up.

Nowadays its all just fire and brimstone and "You will be judged!"

I’ll try and be more reasonable. If you & I were on an airplane, I knew something was wrong with the engine, and that we were going to crash, would you want know about the problem so you could put your parachute on? I’m just trying to tell you that we’re going to have to jump. You are going to die and you don’t know when. I’ve got my parachute on. You don’t. You can’t just wish it all away and say that you don’t believe in the law of gravity. If you jump without your parachute, you are going to die and there is a second death after judgment lasting for eternity.

I’m really not trying to preach fire & brimstone to you. If what the Bible says it true and hell is a reality (which it is), you are in big trouble. You are going to die and face judgment for every thought and deed in this lifetime. You are already guilty. Your conscience should testify to that based on your inability to live up to God’s moral law (10 Commandments) and “be perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect (Matthew 5:48). God has more love for the world than you can possibly fathom. However, it is a perfecting love and not a pampering one. The cure hurts but it is absolutely necessary.

Here’s another. You’ve gotten really sick. You go see the doctor. He does some tests and determines that you have cancer that, if left untreated, will be terminal. Would you rather he not tell you the problem since you’re going to die anyway and just give you some pain medication to make you feel better during the time you have left? Or would you rather him tell you, in detail, what you’re up against in order to convince you of the seriousness of your illness so that you’ll accept even a painful cure and follow through with it until you’re healed?

This isn’t fire & brimstone. I’m not sitting here screaming at you that you’re going to hell without a reasonable explanation of why. I’m not trying to scare you. I’m just telling you the reality of the situation. I don’t want your money and I’m not trying to recruit you into some church denomination. I don’t even expect you to all of a sudden post in this open forum that you’ve just had some radical conversion experience or not. I’m just trying to get you to consider an important issue which concerns you personally. That’s all. You can disagree with me all day long if you want to. However, you have knowledge of the truth now. With knowledge comes accountability. The more knowledge you gain, the more accountable you become.

[Butters 0]

No one can prove beyond a doubt that the Bible is real or that the God from the Bible is real. Those that want to believe do believe, those that don't want to believe don't believe. However, can we all agree that morals can and do exist outside of religion?

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[steveorino 7]

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No one can prove beyond a doubt that the Bible is real or that the God from the Bible is real. Those that want to believe do believe, those that don't want to believe don't believe. However, can we all agree that morals can and do exist outside of religion?

I agree they do -- in fact I see many morals are nearly universal despite the differences in religions. I wonder why?

steveOrino

[jakee 1,257]

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HAve you read Psalm 22?

Yep. Reminds me of the Rhyme of the Ancient Mariner. Maybe the author was becalmed on a ship?

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My point was MOST of the contradictions that are listed can be explained by a Bible college freshman.

Fair enough. I don't particularly care about those superficial 'literal' contradictions in the Bible either. Its like arguing about peeling paintwork on a building who's foundations have been lain on quicksand.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jakee 1,257]

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No one can prove beyond a doubt that the Bible is real or that the God from the Bible is real. Those that want to believe do believe, those that don't want to believe don't believe. However, can we all agree that morals can and do exist outside of religion?

I agree they do -- in fact I see many morals are nearly universal despite the differences in religions. I wonder why?

I think you can find your answer here

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[steveorino 7]

Hey, he begged the question.

steveOrino

[okalb 79]

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I’ll try and be more reasonable. If you & I were on an airplane, I knew something was wrong with the engine, and that we were going to crash, would you want know about the problem so you could put your parachute on? I’m just trying to tell you that we’re going to have to jump. You are going to die and you don’t know when. I’ve got my parachute on. You don’t. You can’t just wish it all away and say that you don’t believe in the law of gravity. If you jump without your parachute, you are going to die and there is a second death after judgment lasting for eternity.

I usually avoid these threads, but I couldn't ignore this one. This argument is absolute BS. From childhood we have all seen gravity at work. As skydivers we have proven the laws of gravity repeatedly. You are comparing proven science to mythical mumbo jumbo.

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Here’s another. You’ve gotten really sick. You go see the doctor. He does some tests and determines that you have cancer that, if left untreated, will be terminal. Would you rather he not tell you the problem since you’re going to die anyway and just give you some pain medication to make you feel better during the time you have left? Or would you rather him tell you, in detail, what you’re up against in order to convince you of the seriousness of your illness so that you’ll accept even a painful cure and follow through with it until you’re healed?

Once again you are comparing proven medical science to a myth. These arguments have absolutely nothing to do with fact. You are trying to state your religious beliefs as fact without ANY proof whatsoever. You expect us to take it on faith when there is no reason for us to do so.

Time flies like an arrow....fruit flies like a banana

[steveorino 7]

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You are trying to state your religious beliefs as fact without ANY proof whatsoever. You expect us to take it on faith when there is no reason for us to do so.

Or he is telling you what he believes to be fact, and is trying to help you.

Paj and I are alike in many ways (Special Forces, Christian) but we are different in many ways too. I "think" he has a more fundamental view of scripture than I do. I see him truly trying to help.

steveOrino

[pajarito 0]

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explain how the Midianite massacre Num.31:1-35, BT 90,000+ killed is righteous indignation

God exacted justice on people in those days in a very real way. He is withholding judgment now giving you the opportunity to change. War was made with the Midianites because of their attempt to corrupt God's people. They were destroyed because they were exceedingly sinful in the eyes of God. Just like many others. Weeds are cut down from time to time in order to preserve and grow the wheat. The Israelites were God's chosen people.

[pajarito 0]

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However, can we all agree that morals can and do exist outside of religion?

Yes. Religion is just a roadmap to a destination. Morality is written on the hearts of all people whether they follow a religion or not. Whether they choose to follow their conscience or not is a different matter.

[jakee 1,257]

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The Israelites were God's chosen people.

Why?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[pajarito 0]

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As far as I can understand, local (in both time and location) religious practises usually validate the morals of the time and day.

Or is it the other way around?

The "basis" for morality does not come from a particular religion. It comes from God.

[pajarito 0]

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A thought. It was in the fullness of time. Because of Rome there was a world peace, a common language (Greek), roads to take the gospel out, the expeltion of Jews in and around 70AD help take the gospel beyond Jerusalem (first Christians were Jews).

Just a few ideas. Could it had worked today? I don't know -- I believe it was the timing God wanted.

Sounds good to me.

[pajarito 0]

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You expect us to take it on faith when there is no reason for us to do so.

There's plenty of reason to do so. However, you are correct in that it does take faith.

[kallend 1,647]

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Gotta start somewhere. It BEGAN in Jerusalem

Acts 1: 8
8But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.

An omnipresent god could start it everywhere, at all times.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[philh 0]

Matthew 19:12 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)
Public Domain



12For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it."

[steveorino 7]

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Gotta start somewhere. It BEGAN in Jerusalem

Acts 1: 8
8But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.

An omnipresent god could start it everywhere, at all times.

Yep, unless he chose to do it through humans.

steveOrino

[philh 0]

Sorry pasted the worng thing should read:

Paj, your analysis of the 10 commandments is full of wholes mate.

1.
“Israel was not to worship or call on any of the gods of other nations, but was commanded to fear the one and only true God and serve him alone. We are to love him with all of our heart, mind, soul, and strength to much that our love for our parents,”
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Yep you got it right, Israel; the 10 commandments were given to the Hebrews not anyone else. That is why the Jews call themselves the chosen race; they were chosen to receive the 10 commandments. Your use of the word “we” seems to contradict this. Are you a Jew Paj? I was raised as a Jew so one could make a case the 10 c’s apply to me , I see no reason why they should apply to you, at least within the framework of biblical theology.

2. You shall not make to yourself any graven image.

“The prohibition against the worship of other gods required that no image be made of them, nor could anyone make an image of the Lord God himself.”

You are adding your own interpretation to that one. The fact is the commandment doesn’t say anything about graven images of other gods, it just says no graven images. In other words, no art. It’s a classic Christian trick , you don’t like what the bible says so you come up with some changed meaning that isn’t actually in the text, “I think what god meant to say was…”


3&4
Yes the Sabbath and gods name was to be kept holy and the penalty for breaking this. Being stoned to death. I suppose you would like this reintroduced?

5
Honor your father and mother
Something Jesus was unable to do. As well as being rude to his mother, he also preached
“26If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.” Luke 14,26
In Luke 820-21 Jesus is told his mother and brother want to see him what does he say,“21And he answered and said unto them, My mother and my brethren are these which hear the word of God, and do it.
6 You shall not kill
“This forbids wilful murder or the unlawful taking of life.”
What a load of bullshit. Where do you get this from? The commandment does not say this, it simply says though shall not kill, everything else is you or some other theists guess work. Paj , we have gone over this before but I will go over it again with a previous response:
“Having spent 8 years in a Hebrew school I can assure the word ratsach means kill, not specifically "intentional killing without cause" as you say. There are many words in Hebrew that mean kill and they are used interchangeably in the Torah. But you don’t have to take my word for it. Take for example Numbers 35
27And the revenger of blood find him without the borders of the city of his refuge, and the revenger of blood kill the slayer; he shall not be guilty of blood:

here the hebrew word ratsach is used and it very clearly states that the slayer -ratsach- is not guilty. So im sorry your argument falls apart.”
7 You shall not commit adultery
Jesus said whoever looks upon a woman to lust after her has committed adultery with her already in his heart. Again, he sees your thought life.
He also encourages us to castrate ourselves
“
Matthew 19:12
12For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.

[pajarito 0]

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Paj and I are alike in many ways (Special Forces, Christian) but we are different in many ways too. I "think" he has a more fundamental view of scripture than I do. I see him truly trying to help.

Steve, what is a fundamentalist really? I mean, I know you've read Romans. Does not being a fundamentalist mean that you only take parts of it to be true? Sticking with what I've been talking about and not getting bogged down in some of the other points of contention regarding the Bible, do you not believe in the reality of hell, the fact that we are going to die and face judgment, the requirement of being righteous without sin to enter heaven, the complete impossibility of us accomplishing that goal with anything that we might do of ourselves (only through the grace of God), and the only path to forgiveness which is repentance (completely turning away from sin) and faith in the Saviour who paid the required penalty for our lawlessness in order that justice be done? Also, the mandate for us to spread the good news of the gospel to all people in order that they might not suffer that fate? I can think of no other message more important than that to tell everyone. Do you not believe that it is critical that people come to that realization and make a decision one way or the other before it is too late? Based on Romans, what will be their fate without God? It gets my attention. Does that make me a fundamentalist? If so, I am definitely one. How do you feel about Revelation 3:15-16?

By the way... What's up bro?

[pajarito 0]

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The Israelites were God's chosen people.

Why?

That's his plan. Not mine. How would I know? I'm not God.

[steveorino 7]

Your biblical interpreation skills are very lacking. I'd say you are on par with my understanding of science.

You make a lot of errors. Scripture is easily misinterpreted and taken out of context. Reading it in a translation is a recipe for misuse too. It makes a lot more sense when you read Konia Greek and understand languages uses idioms.

steveOrino

[philh 0]

Paj, 2 more things.
1 when you say
"I do not believe God causes all bad things to happen"
i wonder why that is since it cleary says in the bible that god creates evil.
Isaiah 45:6
I form the ligh, and create darkness. I make peace and create evil. I the Lord do all these things"


2
Paj, you paste Josephus in like it’s a fact. You must know most scholars believe it is a forgery. Just think about it for a moment. Josehpus is writing a history of the Jews. If the Jewsih Messiah had actually arrived this would be the biggest thing in Jewish history ever, why then does it only get one paragraph? The answer is obvious. It’s a forgery. Its not just atheists that think this. Chrsitains as well, The Bishop of Gloucester called it “a rank forgery and a very stupid one”, the Catholic Encylopedia says "The passage seems to suffer from repeated interpolations."
It is eithher ignorance that you paste this passage in as fact or wilful deciet, which is it?