Don't forget your ID at UCLA

[Zipp0 1]

Quote

Poochie indicates drugs? Well, then, now the rules are different. If poochie doesn't find anything, you'll probably be free to go.

I am convinced they train those dogs to 'hit' on every single car they pull over. I mean, how does a citizen know how the dog is trained to react?

It's a poor standard for probable cause, if you ask me. What if they say the dog 'hit', they tear your car apart, and still find nothing?

Do you have a case?

--------------------------
Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

[lawrocket 3]

Yep. Probably a small one, though.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[D-rock 0]

Here is the full video of the incident:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AyvrqcxNIFs

The part at the end where the student asks officer dickface for his badge number and the asshat says something like get away or I'll tase you too is really disturbing.

[justinb138 0]

Quote

Here is the full video of the incident:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AyvrqcxNIFs

The part at the end where the student asks officer dickface for his badge number and the asshat says something like get away or I'll tase you too is really disturbing.

Agreed. I'd at least expect the officers to be on paid leave pending an investigation, but the PD didn't even do that.

[Gawain 0]

Quote

Yep. You can say no. There's no probable cause for arrest most of the time. If there's some suspicion and the cop wants to search your car, you can say, "No." The cop probably doesn't have enough for a warrant, either. So you wait for awhile until K-9 comes along, whereupon poochie sniffs around for drugs. Poochie indicates drugs? Well, then, now the rules are different. If poochie doesn't find anything, you'll probably be free to go.

Emphasis mine: Correct, but still...ONLY when the cop says you're free to go.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[Gawain 0]

Quote

Here is the full video of the incident:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AyvrqcxNIFs

The part at the end where the student asks officer dickface for his badge number and the asshat says something like get away or I'll tase you too is really disturbing.

On a tangent here...why does "eyewitness" video always suck?

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[billvon 2,473]

>You can say no, but that doesn't release you from custody.

At a traffic stop you are most definitely NOT in custody. If the officer feels there is probable cause to arrest you he can do so. If he decides to detain you until you can be identified (i.e. you don't have your license or any ID) he can do that as well - but that is quite different than being arrested.

Now, needless to say, he can in effect do whatever he wants - he has the gun. But abuses aside, police do not have the power most people think they do when they pull you over.

[likearock 1]

Quote

I find it difficult to say whether the UCPD acted excessively.

How can you say that? Even assuming that there was good reason to detain the student, they had to use a taser on him? Would it have been so difficult to handcuff and apprehend him instead? Is that the kind of society you want to live in, where citizens are subjected to electric shocks in order to get them to obey?

[lawrocket 3]

Quote

Would it have been so difficult to handcuff and apprehend him instead?

Sure. Hogtie him, too! Apply chloroform to him, get a litter and carry him out.

Jesus - I have a hard enough time moving my freaking two year old. I'm no cop, but I reckon that partners and workmates of the 150 or so killed every year say to themselves, "HE shoulda tased him."

WE have an incidents forum to learn from the often lethal mistakes of others. Tasers are non-lethal. (To you guys who mention those dudes that OD around the same time as being tased, I won't arue wiht you).

SO, the choice is to either neutralize the target without pummeling his ass, breaking his wrist, causing nerve damage, etc., AND doing so at close range, or move in to close range and hope you don't get clobbered.

I'll tell you my choice. Tase his ass...

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[jenfly00 0]

Quote

>You can say no, but that doesn't release you from custody.

At a traffic stop you are most definitely NOT in custody.

Under arrest ...no. In police custody ...definitely! If you are not free to leave, you are in police custody. What do you think would happen if the officer said she was going to write you a ticket and you said, "OK, I'm gonna go now" and start to drive off?

-----------------------
"O brave new world that has such people in it".

[likearock 1]

Quote

Quote

Would it have been so difficult to handcuff and apprehend him instead?

Sure. Hogtie him, too! Apply chloroform to him, get a litter and carry him out.

Jesus - I have a hard enough time moving my freaking two year old. I'm no cop, but I reckon that partners and workmates of the 150 or so killed every year say to themselves, "HE shoulda tased him."

WE have an incidents forum to learn from the often lethal mistakes of others. Tasers are non-lethal. (To you guys who mention those dudes that OD around the same time as being tased, I won't arue wiht you).

SO, the choice is to either neutralize the target without pummeling his ass, breaking his wrist, causing nerve damage, etc., AND doing so at close range, or move in to close range and hope you don't get clobbered.

I'll tell you my choice. Tase his ass...

What the hell are you talking about? This guy wasn't a criminal, he was simply a student who thought he was being singled out and reacted to it. If you don't think it could be you next time, you're dreaming.

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

Tasers are non-lethal. (To you guys who mention those dudes that OD around the same time as being tased, I won't arue wiht you).

It's become readily clear that tasers are far from non lethal, and not just for druggies. (which is a bullshit excuse anyway - if you know tasers will kill a population well represented in your arrest pool, you need to move on)

Officers can no longer pretend that it's a nonlethal escalation and use it as a crutch, or to exact revenge.

[akarunway 1]

Quote

Quote

Come on, these guys weren't even LAPD, they were campus police.

These "campus police" are one of only two police organizations in the California to have statewide jurisdiction (the other being the California Highway Patrol - the CHP has statewide jx for obvious reasons).

I find it difficult to say whether the UCPD acted excessively. It's perfectly legitimate to check to see whether the person using the computer lab is a student or some dude off the street. If the rules are that you are subject to ID checks, and if you don't have ID, you leave, then those are the rules.

Furthermore, there HAS to be more going on with this. Being a UC alum, UCPD doesn't do these checks - the CSO's do. The CSO is the "Community Service Organization." They are students who act like security without true police powers (at UCSB, they did stuff like escort female students at night, took reports, and the like. They are like a liaison, too.

I reckon in this instance, the CSO's were performing the ID checks. This dude didn't have ID. They asked him to leave. He refused. Then the CSO's called the police (as they should). After the UCPD got there, this guy was still giving them a hassle. Now, a person who is unresponsive to police commands sets off alerts with the officers that this person may be in an altered mental state. Yes, ER docs test an emergency patient's responsiveness to commands to determine cognitive deficit. Combativeness is a sign of brain trauma or drug abuse.

So, this guy refused to comply with a CSO's requests, stuck around until the cops got there, refused to comply with a cop's DEMAND, was combative when the cops started to forcibly remove him, continued to be combative after being tasered, and then yelled out, "I WAS LEAVING!!!!"

Come on, guys. Put yourself in the position of a UCPD cop. I know this may shock most of you, but believe it or not, college campuses do have lots of students who experiment with drugs, inlcuding meth, pcp, and other less innocuous substances than alcohol and herb.

I object.Pure speculation counselor. I'd like to see the doctored police reports your honor

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[akarunway 1]

Quote

Quote

Would it have been so difficult to handcuff and apprehend him instead?

Sure. Hogtie him, too! Apply chloroform to him, get a litter and carry him out.

Jesus - I have a hard enough time moving my freaking two year old. I'm no cop, but I reckon that partners and workmates of the 150 or so killed every year say to themselves, "HE shoulda tased him."

WE have an incidents forum to learn from the often lethal mistakes of others. Tasers are non-lethal. (To you guys who mention those dudes that OD around the same time as being tased, I won't arue wiht you).

SO, the choice is to either neutralize the target without pummeling his ass, breaking his wrist, causing nerve damage, etc., AND doing so at close range, or move in to close range and hope you don't get clobbered.

I'll tell you my choice. Tase his ass...

"Police officers in at least five states have filing lawsuits against Taser International claiming they suffered serious injuries after being shocked with the device during training classes." And that doesn't include all the deaths. ME sides w/ cops most the time. Expect anything different?

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[akarunway 1]

Quote

>You can say no, but that doesn't release you from custody.

At a traffic stop you are most definitely NOT in custody. If the officer feels there is probable cause to arrest you he can do so. If he decides to detain you until you can be identified (i.e. you don't have your license or any ID) he can do that as well - but that is quite different than being arrested.

Now, needless to say, he can in effect do whatever he wants - he has the gun. But abuses aside, police do not have the power most people think they do when they pull you over.

You are absolutly right. I was a passenger in a vehicle at a DUI checkpoint yrs ago. Was told I was NOT under arrest but I couldn't leave.(walking) I raised holy hell (lucky for me TV stations were videoing) and the cops had to let me leave. The one cop whispered in my ear before he let me go. "You so much as step off a curb w/o a green light me and my buddies are gonna get you and beat the living fuck outta you and YOU MIGHT NOT BE SEEN AGAIN" Orlando Fla. Welcome to the NEW America

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[billvon 2,473]

>Under arrest ...no. In police custody ...definitely!

The two terms are often used synomymously.

>What do you think would happen if the officer said she was going to
>write you a ticket and you said, "OK, I'm gonna go now" and start to drive off?

He would probably follow you and arrest you for disobeying a peace officer - which IS a crime under most traffic codes. However, until you do that, you are not under arrest/in custody in any real sense. It differs from state to state. In Kansas:

---------------
Although the legal definition of a seizure asks whether a reasoanble person would feel like they were no longer free to go, does that mean every car stop is an arrest because the driver is not free to go? The answer is a qualified no. Temporary detention of individuals during a car stop by the police, even if only for a brief period and for a limited purpose, constitutes a "seizure" of "persons." See Delaware v. Prouse, 440 U.S. 648, 653 (1979). An automobile stop is thus subject to the constitutional imperative that it not be "unreasonable" under the circumstances. However, car stops generally involve a brief, limited detention based on a traffic infraction or misdemeanor committed in the officer's presence and are generally governed by the law on Terry stops. State v. Mitchell, 265 Kan. 238 (1998).
----------------

From an article by Aaron Larson:

--------------------------
A "Terry Stop" is not an arrest, even though the person can't leave during the investigatory questioning, as the detention is of short duration and is limited in its scope. (A "Terry Stop" may involve little more than a short series of questions, such as, "What is your name? Where do you live? Why are you here?")
------------------------

But in the end the word you use doesn't matter much. If the cop wants you to stay there, you're going to stay there, even if your laywer can later go after him for a violation of procedure (i.e. of your rights.) Asking "am I free to go?" will at least clear up the question.

[AggieDave 6]

Quote

Officers can no longer pretend that it's a nonlethal escalation and use it as a crutch, or to exact revenge.

You know, this is like a whuffo telling a skydiver why an incident happened while trying to show their understanding of skydiving.

Think about the most mentally distressed person you've ever seen in your life due to some sort of event in their life, either emotional distress, physical or chemical distress. Now make them also the most angry person you have ever seen in your life. Now imagine them wanting to do nothing else but hurt you so they can leave. Now add to this that you have an ethical and legal obligation to make sure the person doesn't just leave, but they also come with you in your car to a place they do not want to go. After all of that now walk up to that person, put your hands on them and make them go with you.

You know, I made a promise to my wife that I would come home every morning. The above situation doesn't happen every day, but it does happen. I'm a highly trained martial artists and I'm unable to simply use verbal direction and soft empty hand techniques to effect an arrest at times. Sometimes officers have to use their "crutches" (as you call them) to protect others or themselves from harm.

I don't personally know anything about this incident, so I'm not going to Monday-morning quaterback it. I would hope that the officer reacted correctly, but we'll eventually find out if he did or not.

You might want to call up your local PD or SO and ask if they have a citizen's police academy. Your eyes will be wide by the time you leave. Not only that, but you'll learn a LOT about how the police work, how investigations work and more about what your rights are and how to protect them.

If that's too much of a commitment, then go do a ride along with your local PD or SO. Its not like Cops, its not like you see on TV and when you're out there and not watching it on TV, things seem quite different. That car that the officer just pulled over might have someone that just robbed a gas station that hasn't been reported yet. Or it could be grandma on the way to dinner with her grandchildren.

(The above about the citizen's police academy and ride alongs goes out to all of those reading this thread).

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[akarunway 1]

Quote

Quote

Officers can no longer pretend that it's a nonlethal escalation and use it as a crutch, or to exact revenge.

You know, this is like a whuffo telling a skydiver why an incident happened while trying to show their understanding of skydiving.

Think about the most mentally distressed person you've ever seen in your life due to some sort of event in their life, either emotional distress, physical or chemical distress. Now make them also the most angry person you have ever seen in your life. Now imagine them wanting to do nothing else but hurt you so they can leave. Now add to this that you have an ethical and legal obligation to make sure the person doesn't just leave, but they also come with you in your car to a place they do not want to go. After all of that now walk up to that person, put your hands on them and make them go with you.

You know, I made a promise to my wife that I would come home every morning. The above situation doesn't happen every day, but it does happen. I'm a highly trained martial artists and I'm unable to simply use verbal direction and soft empty hand techniques to effect an arrest at times. Sometimes officers have to use their "crutches" (as you call them) to protect others or themselves from harm.

I don't personally know anything about this incident, so I'm not going to Monday-morning quaterback it. I would hope that the officer reacted correctly, but we'll eventually find out if he did or not.

You might want to call up your local PD or SO and ask if they have a citizen's police academy. Your eyes will be wide by the time you leave. Not only that, but you'll learn a LOT about how the police work, how investigations work and more about what your rights are and how to protect them.

If that's too much of a commitment, then go do a ride along with your local PD or SO. Its not like Cops, its not like you see on TV and when you're out there and not watching it on TV, things seem quite different. That car that the officer just pulled over might have someone that just robbed a gas station that hasn't been reported yet. Or it could be grandma on the way to dinner with her grandchildren.

(The above about the citizen's police academy and ride alongs goes out to all of those reading this thread).

Didn't know you were a cop. Tell ya story. I had a long talk w/ an old detective one day. He had tried to commit suicide and was speaking at a rehab. He said the way cops are trained today is pathetic. Shoot to kill "EVERY MOTHERFUCKER OUT THERE WANTS TO KILL YOU" Nice training for todays Gestapo eh. And he was a pretty cool cop. One of the older generation. You know> "To protect and SERVE"

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[AggieDave 6]

Quote

He had tried to commit suicide and was speaking at a rehab.

The suicide rate is very high in law enforcement, higher then the national average. There are a number of contributing factors, won't go into it here.

Quote

Shoot to kill "EVERY MOTHERFUCKER OUT THERE WANTS TO KILL YOU"

Well, not everyone. Typically people just want to fight so they can get away from you and run. There is a group of people that would kill you while they were in a calm state of mind. Unfortunately a decent majority of people aren't in calm state of mind when the police contact them.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[kelpdiver 2]

sorry, Dave, there's been too many dead taser victims. If you feel threatened, pull out your gun and shoot them. I'll support that within any sense of reason.

If you want a non lethal choice, you're going to need something else now. It's been sold as the get out of shit free card, to use at will and that just isn't supportable.

I don't need to be a cop, I only need to be a CITIZEN to make this determination.

Same likely applies to the rubber bullets and bean bags that the Berkeley police have been abusing for decades.

[bwilling 0]

Here's a video worth viewing for everyone that's ever wondered what their rights actually are regarding searches...

"If all you ever do is all you ever did, then all you'll ever get is all you ever got."

[AggieDave 6]

Quote

sorry, Dave, there's been too many dead taser victims. If you feel threatened, pull out your gun and shoot them. I'll support that within any sense of reason.

I don't even have a Taser. Just pointing out that you really should take steps to further educate yourself on what the PD goes through and why less lethal solutions are sometimes a better choice.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[mirage62 0]

Sorry if I missed this but do we know:

1. Was this a STUDENT? (as a fact not he seem to be)

2. What went on before the video (was he violet in any manner)

3. Why wouldn't he get up and leave after he was handcuffed? (before he was taz)

Just questions, sorry if I missed it I watch the video. Why do we have such a hard time with stuff like this? If he was told to leave and didn't leave RIGHT then why not taz him?

On the saftey of being tazed. I'd rather be taz than beat up but mainly I do what the cop says do and I don't get either. I realize that most people he seem to have terrible stories of what bad cops did do them but it just hasn't happen to me, my family or my friends.

Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

[justinb138 0]

Quote

Sorry if I missed this but do we know:

1. Was this a STUDENT? (as a fact not he seem to be)

Yes, this was a student.

Quote

2. What went on before the video (was he violet in any manner)

Not according to witnesses. He was asked to show his student ID, didn't have it, and was then asked to leave by a courtesy office. He waited for a while, so the campus police were called.

Quote

3. Why wouldn't he get up and leave after he was handcuffed? (before he was taz)

He was in the process of leaving (had grabbed his bag and was heading toward the door) as the police arrived. He ran into them on his way to the door.

Quote

If he was told to leave and didn't leave RIGHT then why not taz him?

Why not hit him with something, hell, why not just shoot him then?

[akarunway 1]

A little more on the story http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15830551/

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.