rehmwa 2 #51 November 7, 2006 QuoteNo evidence is needed for faith to exist. In fact, faith means that you believe X despite any and every piece of evidence that proves X false. That's not really right. Your first sentence is close. The second is very jaded and just wrong and a disservice to those that are faithful (remember, I claim agnosticism - not antagonistic atheism). 1 - No evidence is the BASIS for faith (pretty well the definition) - so your first bit is close to target 2 - that precludes both evidence for or against so your second comment is goofy again, it is confusing a mature faith, with a less healthy 'blind faith' that we attribute to children you're still attributing blind faith (which is certainly very present in the world) as the default for all those that are religious I really think steveorino wants to talk about adult faith, not immature faith. I think very few agnostics or atheists are equipped to actually have this conversation. Neither, however, are the multitudes of the 'blindly' faithful types. These types are just in training for fanaticism anyway. You see it in politics also. I think religion will die out as the blindly faithful become more and more prominent as the other forget how to teach this to their children. actually, ditto for the strongly atheistic types too, as it's just another religion with the same symptoms ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #52 November 7, 2006 QuoteHere's something for you to think about. Is there any evidence, even in principle, that would make you change your mind about the existence of god? Well, I have endured religion where people say one thing but act totally in another way and still call themselves the Church. If anything would make me disbelieve I would think that would. But my understanding of God teaches me that his followers are very imperfect people. (one thing that makes the Bible stand out differently than most religous books is how it portrays it's heroes, warts and all) I've come to realize that God has many the Church doesn't have, and the Church has many that God doesn't have. Is there evidence that could change me? I don't know, maybe. I only know I haven't seen that evidence so far. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #53 November 7, 2006 QuoteI think religion will die out as the blindly faithful become more and more prominent as the other forget how to teach this to their children. Religion will never die it will just change form ..."That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #55 November 7, 2006 QuoteQuoteI think religion will die out as the blindly faithful become more and more prominent as the other forget how to teach this to their children. Religion will never die it will just change form ... the church of the secular and the church of the republican control and the church of the democrat? it's already happening - people like to belong to something without having to exercise individual thought ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #56 November 7, 2006 I'm agnostic, because I stake my faith in the "more likely than not" camp. I think there are likely higher powers than us, but unlikely that they take any of the forms espoused by any organized religion. I think any sort of "soul" or "afterlife" is unlikely, because it's difficult to imagine such attributes being applied to all living things. Whether most people care to admit it or not, us humans are just another species of animal, no more special than any other species. I don't care that most people believe differently than me, it's all about what gets you through the night. I'm perfectly comfortable with the notion that this is all we get, and I'm also perfectly comfortable with other people reaching a different conclusion as long as those thoughts make them a less stressed or better person and not an asshole. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #57 November 7, 2006 Quote as those thoughts make them a less stressed or better person and not an asshole. Blues, Dave I'm trying! Honest I am! steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,166 #58 November 7, 2006 QuoteEven with the intellect God has given me I can realize IF there was creator so divine he could speak the world into existence, I'm not going to fully comprehend him.That's probably my faith in a nutshell. I choose to believe that there's a God out there, but trying to define him with our terms is silly. If he's that omnipotent, I probably can't understand him with the tools I have. Which doesn't mean he doesn't exist, or that I'm meaningless, or that this world is stupid, or anything else. Or even that the Bible is or isn't the specific word of God and an accurate history of the world down to the last comma (although I seriously doubt that). Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #59 November 7, 2006 QuoteEven with the intellect God has given me I can realize IF there was creator so divine he could speak the world into existence, I'm not going to fully comprehend him. I agree with that. In the same way that a baby cow born as a result of artificial insemination doesn't understand the farmer responsible for its existence, if there is a god, he's likely too complex for our little brains to understand. He also doesn't likely expect our worship, in the same way that farmer doesn't expect the adoration of his cows. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #60 November 7, 2006 QuoteQuoteI think religion will die out as the blindly faithful become more and more prominent as the other forget how to teach this to their children. Religion will never die it will just change form ... I agree. The "blindly faithful" will exist as long as there are people who want someone else to make all the important decisions for them and relieve them from personal responsibility and the need to apply rational thought to their own choices. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #61 November 7, 2006 QuoteHe also doesn't likely expect our worship, I'm not dissagreeing necessarily, but I wonder why you said that. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgun 1 #62 November 7, 2006 Quotethose people that call themselves atheist and believe in 'spirituality' or 'karma' or whatever bollocks is flavour of the week are quite amusing Atheism is the disbelief in the existence of a god or gods. Spirituality does not necessarily have anything to do with gods. Therefore, it is possible for an atheist to be spiritual. Now excuse me while I go search for some chicken bones to throw at rehmwa. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #63 November 7, 2006 QuoteQuoteHe also doesn't likely expect our worship, I'm not dissagreeing necessarily, but I wonder why you said that. As I look at the chain of increasingly complex beings, I see no relationships in which a "higher" lifeform expects the worship of a "lower" lifeform. I don't expect my dogs, cats, house spiders, or the field mice under my house to worship me. I also see no reason to believe that the chain of increasingly complex lifeforms stops with us, therefore on a more likely than not basis, there are likely more complex beings than us, and they likely don't expect our worship. Logic suggests that an established, repeating pattern will continue to repeat itself, and I can think of no reason that the attributes of that cycle should suddenly change as it gets beyond humans. If higher lifeforms DO expect our adoration, I would consider that an undesirable trait akin to arrogance or egotism. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #64 November 7, 2006 Quote Actually there are some very compelling arguments for the non-existence of god. An omnimax god is illogical, the problem of evil, infinite regress etc. These are arguments against a specific form of supreme being. The all knowing, all seeing, all caring, all good one. That's a lot of assumptions in your hypothesis. Quote Fairies might exist. There may be a purple teapot orbiting saturn. Presumably, you discount these possibilities as absurd but somehow god gets a special pass. Why? What is so special about a supreme being that gives it more credibility than other equally preposterous ideas? You can scan your garden with a sonar machine, and we can take a look at saturn, but we have no way of looking for a supreme being. There's no solid evidence for or against because we haven't found a way to look for it yet. Quote I think that making the statement that "for all practical purposes, there is no god" is perfectly logical. So for all practical purposes I'm an atheist and, I suspect, so are you. Well, I think a statement that "there is no god that affects my life in any way that I can perceive" would be more accurate. And no, I'm not an athiest in any sense of the word, as I have made no decision one way or the other. That's the definition of an agnostic. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #65 November 7, 2006 QuoteAs I look at the chain of increasingly complex beings, I see no relationships in which a "higher" lifeform expects the worship of a "lower" lifeform. I don't expect my dogs, cats, house spiders, or the field mice under my house to worship me. I also see no reason to believe that the chain of increasingly complex lifeforms stops with us, therefore on a more likely than not basis, there are likely more complex beings than us, and they likely don't expect our worship. Logic suggests that an established, repeating pattern will continue to repeat itself, and I can think of no reason that the attributes of that cycle should suddenly change as it gets beyond humans. If higher lifeforms DO expect our adoration, I would consider that an undesirable trait akin to arrogance or egotism. Blues, Dave Agreed. Why believe in a God that created you as an inferior whose sole (or soul) purpose is to worship God?"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #66 November 7, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteHe also doesn't likely expect our worship, I'm not dissagreeing necessarily, but I wonder why you said that. As I look at the chain of increasingly complex beings, I see no relationships in which a "higher" lifeform expects the worship of a "lower" lifeform. I don't expect my dogs, cats, house spiders, or the field mice under my house to worship me. I also see no reason to believe that the chain of increasingly complex lifeforms stops with us, therefore on a more likely than not basis, there are likely more complex beings than us, and they likely don't expect our worship. Logic suggests that an established, repeating pattern will continue to repeat itself, and I can think of no reason that the attributes of that cycle should suddenly change as it gets beyond humans. If higher lifeforms DO expect our adoration, I would consider that an undesirable trait akin to arrogance or egotism. Blues, Dave But did we CREATE those lower LIFE forms? Doesn't your logic fall apart there? Not being argumentive, just thinking outloud. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,465 #67 November 7, 2006 >Therefore, it is possible for an atheist to be spiritual. Well, to believe in a spirit, you do have to believe in the supernatural. But I suppose you can believe in the supernatural and not believe in a conventional god. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fast 0 #68 November 7, 2006 QuoteAgnostic. I don't have a clue whether or not there's a supreme being, and I don't think anyone else does either. Logic tells me that there's not much evidence of a supreme being, and what evidence there is is very subjective, easily fabricated, and not at all conclusive. I think that making an absolute statement of "there is no god" is almost as illogical as believing, because, while there's no credible evidence to support the existance of a deity, there's no conclusive evidence against it either. Agreed.~D Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me. Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #69 November 7, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteHe also doesn't likely expect our worship, I'm not dissagreeing necessarily, but I wonder why you said that. As I look at the chain of increasingly complex beings, I see no relationships in which a "higher" lifeform expects the worship of a "lower" lifeform. I don't expect my dogs, cats, house spiders, or the field mice under my house to worship me. I also see no reason to believe that the chain of increasingly complex lifeforms stops with us, therefore on a more likely than not basis, there are likely more complex beings than us, and they likely don't expect our worship. Logic suggests that an established, repeating pattern will continue to repeat itself, and I can think of no reason that the attributes of that cycle should suddenly change as it gets beyond humans. If higher lifeforms DO expect our adoration, I would consider that an undesirable trait akin to arrogance or egotism. But did we CREATE those lower LIFE forms? Doesn't your logic fall apart there? Not being argumentive, just thinking outloud. We've come close with cloning technology and genetically alterered crops. Even without those recent developments, I don't think the concept of one lifeform creating another necessitates worship. Do you believe god demands the adoration of algae? What about modern non-human primates, or ardipithecus, australopithecus, or homo erectus? If not, why would he expect such from homo sapiens? Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #70 November 7, 2006 deleted: accidental double post steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #71 November 7, 2006 QuoteQuoteDo you believe god demands the adoration of algae? What about modern non-human primates, or ardipithecus, australopithecus, or homo erectus? If not, why would he expect such from homo sapiens? Actually I think the world and other creative things do exalt Godin the way they can, by being how they were made. Do you believe that method of worship is insufficient for humans? If so, why? Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #72 November 7, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteDo you believe god demands the adoration of algae? What about modern non-human primates, or ardipithecus, australopithecus, or homo erectus? If not, why would he expect such from homo sapiens? Actually I think the world and other creative things do exalt Godin the way they can, by being how they were made. Do you believe that method of worship is insufficient for humans? If so, why? Blues, Dave Nope, but I do believe that being true to ourselves constitutes giving worth to our creator. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #73 November 7, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteDo you believe god demands the adoration of algae? What about modern non-human primates, or ardipithecus, australopithecus, or homo erectus? If not, why would he expect such from homo sapiens? Actually I think the world and other creative things do exalt Godin the way they can, by being how they were made. Do you believe that method of worship is insufficient for humans? If so, why? Nope, but I do believe that being true to ourselves constitutes giving worth to our creator. Cool, it sounds like we've got at least some common ground. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #74 November 7, 2006 QuoteCool, it sounds like we've got at least some common ground. Blues, Dave Imagine that! I can see the pharisees picking up rocks to stone me now. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgun 1 #75 November 7, 2006 Quote>Therefore, it is possible for an atheist to be spiritual. Well, to believe in a spirit, you do have to believe in the supernatural. But I suppose you can believe in the supernatural and not believe in a conventional god. Right. The term "atheist" only refers to not believing in a god or gods; it has nothing to do with any other beliefs. And you can believe in the supernatural without believing in any type of god. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
