So much for the cease fire....

[Gravitymaster 0]

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They stopped their own secret pact with Saddam Hussein to enrich themselves with lucrative oil contracts. Of course, only after is was discovered and they had to.

LOL, ya got me.

Not to hijack the thread, but Volcker's report was released last October.

http://www.iic-offp.org/story27oct05.htm

Of course it completely refutes the argument that the UN sanctions were working and we had SH "contained."

Would you like to take a wild guess as to why we don't hear about this anymore?

[idrankwhat 0]

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Israel is in violation of more UN resolutions than any country on the planet. No one comes close.

very true, and here is the reasons why...

When you're the only non-Islamic country in the region, your existence is the result of what was essentially hostile take over and you consistently use strong arm aggressive tactics against your neighbors and insist that there will be peace ONLY under the circumstances that you choose...you're going to get a lot of attention. You complain about the 21 Arab countries in the UN but that there's only one Israeli country....well guess what! There's 21 of them and only one of you! In a DEMOCRATIC body that's how it works. I'm not saying that they have the right to nullify your existence but I would think that Israel would understand that they're the reason for the tension in the region and would actually try to show some interest in peace. And you need to consider the possibility that Israel get's the attention it does because of it's aggressive behavior, not simply because there are Arabs in the UN. Israel has the support from the most powerful nation on the planet and it can afford to take the high road in the conflict and not be the aggressor. Israel is not defending itself, it is constantly provoking and attacking. The right thing to do is to get off of other people's land, quit provoking them and enlist the support the international community. People seem to think that if Israel quits being on the offensive that it's neighbors will try to wipe it off the planet. Well guess, what. The US AND the UN won't let that happen. If a massive offensive were ever tried against Israel the US would absolutely crush the aggressors, and I'd have no problem with that. My advice to Israel, if you really want peace then act like it. Get off other people's land and take your mines, missiles and supersonic overflights with you and either release or charge the people you have in your political prisons. Until Israel makes an effort towards peace I'm going to consider them terrorists. Who ever heard of a blood thirsty victim?

[idrankwhat 0]

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They stopped their own secret pact with Saddam Hussein to enrich themselves with lucrative oil contracts. Of course, only after is was discovered and they had to.

LOL, ya got me.

Not to hijack the thread, but Volcker's report was released last October.

http://www.iic-offp.org/story27oct05.htm

Of course it completely refutes the argument that the UN sanctions were working and we had SH "contained."

Would you like to take a wild guess as to why we don't hear about this anymore?

Oil for food was a stupid idea. Either you sanction a country or you don't. Our addiction to their national resource opened the door to corruption. And if you're going to sanction then none of this working through a Cayman Island fax machine crap either.

[falxori 0]

how do you come up with all of this crap?

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When you're the only non-Islamic country in the region, your existence is the result of what was essentially hostile take over and you consistently use strong arm aggressive tactics against your neighbors

If you consider Israel's very existance a "hostile takeover" then the rest of the discussion is useless.
if you don't even recognize Israelis right to live here then all of the other details doesn't matter. do you think Israel should cease to exist or do you accept that Israelis too have a valid claim in this land?

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There's 21 of them and only one of you! In a DEMOCRATIC body that's how it works.

exactly why the UN will never be fair to Israel.
so let me get this straight, if the UN, by majority decides something, just because its a majority , its acceptable?
even the most extreme democracy has balances. lucky for the UN, the US veto is one of them.

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I would think that Israel would understand that they're the reason for the tension in the region and would actually try to show some interest in peace.

I'm sure Israel's existance is the reason, i'm just not willing to pack my things and leave. I am willing to give up a lot of what i could consider mine for the chance of peace.
Israel did it in 1948 and got invaded. Israel did it with egypt. Israel did it with Jordan. Israel tried to did it with the PA and got loads of terrorism in exchange.

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And you need to consider the possibility that Israel get's the attention it does because of it's aggressive behavior, not simply because there are Arabs in the UN.

first of all I don't see Israel as the aggressor and I don't see the UN working so hard on other, more violent conflicts on this planet.

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Israel has the support from the most powerful nation on the planet and it can afford to take the high road in the conflict and not be the aggressor.

how?
we pulled out of Gaza and got missiles in return
we pulled out of lebanon and got Hezollah with 15,000 rockets picking up fights.
if i'm not mistaked, it wasn't israel who crossed the border and started this war.

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Israel is not defending itself, it is constantly provoking and attacking

you keep saying that but its nothing more of empty words.

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The right thing to do is to get off of other people's land,

what "lands" would that be?

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People seem to think that if Israel quits being on the offensive that it's neighbors will try to wipe it off the planet.

thry have before.

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Well guess, what. The US AND the UN won't let that happen. If a massive offensive were ever tried against Israel the US would absolutely crush the aggressors

although the US is helping Israel I do not want american soldiers to come fight my wars and as for the UN, it seems it can't even set up the "peace keeping" force meant to go into lebanon, now that france decided to send 200 troops instead of 4000

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Until Israel makes an effort towards peace I'm going to consider them terrorists.

I don't really care what you consider Israel. I live here and I know how much we value peace. but we also value our right to live here.

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[miked10270 0]

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very true, and here is the reasons why...

21 members of the UN are Arab countries, and at least 52 members represent Islamic countries.

starting with a few simple facts:

That's prett eye-opening right there. It should make even those that constantly rail against Israel open their eyes a little bit. Just post a source to head off the first distractionary argument.

Yeah. 21 out of 188 countries (11.2%). 52 out of 188 (27%).

What about the remaining 88.8% or 73%?

Of course, it's the 0.6% of countries which has a veto in The Security Council for any resolutions which actually criticise their client-state Israel that really counts!

Perhaps without that particular 0.6%, the UN may have been able to go in with a mandate to enforce peace in the region.

Mike.

Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable.

Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.

[Trent 0]

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Yeah. 21 out of 188 countries (11.2%). 52 out of 188 (27%).

Sounds like a lot more than 1 country to me. In fact, sounds like enough for 1 country to feel really ganged up on.

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What about the remaining 88.8% or 73%?

Guess you'd have to see how they usually represent themselves. Is it Venezuela who is anti-everything the US likes, including Israel? Is it Russia or China (veto countries) who are often seen on the side of Iran or Iraq or North Korea?

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Perhaps without that particular 0.6%, the UN may have been able to go in with a mandate to enforce peace in the region.

Where is one place that a UN mandate is enforcing a real peace? Where are some places a lot more genocidal (Africa) where the UN is keeping some peace? When was the UN capable of enforcing a trade embargo on Iraq or accurately monitoring (and reporting) on the arming of Hezbollah?

Maybe, just maybe, if Israel had ANY REASON whatsoever to trust the UN... they would.

But we'll never know, will we?

Oh, hello again!

[falxori 0]

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Perhaps without that particular 0.6%, the UN may have been able to go in with a mandate to enforce peace in the region.

even with the 100% support 1701 got the UN can't come up with the international force decided upon.

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[Andy9o8 0]

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Yeah. 21 out of 188 countries (11.2%). 52 out of 188 (27%).

Sounds like a lot more than 1 country to me. In fact, sounds like enough for 1 country to feel really ganged up on.

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What about the remaining 88.8% or 73%?

Guess you'd have to see how they usually represent themselves. Is it Venezuela who is anti-everything the US likes, including Israel? Is it Russia or China (veto countries) who are often seen on the side of Iran or Iraq or North Korea?

Correct. And in addition to what you just said, many of those anti-Israel votes are really anti-US votes just for the sake of being anti-US. For example, in the UN, most of the African states ally themselves diplomatically with the Arab states on votes dealing with the MidEast not so much out of ideology, but because they're still bitterly resentful of 200 years of Western European colonialism, and since the Western Europeans are seen as allies of Israel, it's a convenient way to stick a thumb in the Europeans' and Americans' eyes. The former colonial states around the world often ally themselves with each other in the UN as political bedfellows: against the true strength of the US & Western Europe, in the UN there's apparent strength in numbers.

Also, as for votes prior to the end of the Cold War, it was a pretty safe bet that any vote by a Communist country would be anti-Israel. No big surprise there.

Also, it's not a percentage of 188. 188 is the total number of member states. All you need to pass a resolution is a simple majority (i.e., 50% + 1) of whatever quorum happens to be assembled when the vote is taken.

Reciting "all the UN resolutions" is a nice, sloganistic talking point that would make the likes of Karl Rove proud, but it doesn't have much real value beyond that.

[Trent 0]

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Correct. And in addition to what you just said, many of those anti-Israel votes are really anti-US votes just for the sake of being anti-US. For example, in the UN, most of the African states ally themselves diplomatically with the Arab states on votes dealing with the MidEast not so much out of ideology, but...

If that's the way it works, the UN really IS useless.

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Also, as for votes prior to the end of the Cold War, it was a pretty safe bet that any vote by a Communist country would be anti-Israel. No big surprise there.

Who's talking about that? We're talking recent now and Russia and China STILL do it.

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Also, it's not a percentage of 188. 188 is the total number of member states. All you need to pass a resolution is a simple majority (i.e., 50% + 1) of whatever quorum happens to be assembled when the vote is taken.

OK? So Israel shouldn't feel ganged up on? Of the 188 countries, how many would you say are "supporters" of Israel? Honestly. How many are anti-Israel. How many just go along with whatever the US doesn't want?

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Reciting "all the UN resolutions" is a nice, sloganistic talking point that would make the likes of Karl Rove proud, but it doesn't have much real value beyond that.

I said nothing like that. Who are you talking to?

Oh, hello again!

[Andy9o8 0]

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Reciting "all the UN resolutions" is a nice, sloganistic talking point that would make the likes of Karl Rove proud, but it doesn't have much real value beyond that.

I said nothing like that. Who are you talking to?

Oops, sorry if I was unclear. I was referring to the same people who you were rebutting. My post is completely in support of (and agreement with) your post, and thus it rebuts the same points you're rebutting. My bad for not making that clear.

[Trent 0]

Gotcha. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Oh, hello again!

[idrankwhat 0]

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If you consider Israel's very existance a "hostile takeover" then the rest of the discussion is useless.

If you don't recognize that the modern state of Israel was established in a manner that forcibly displaced the current residents then you're right. No need to continue.

if you don't even recognize Israelis right to live here then all of the other details doesn't matter. do you think Israel should cease to exist or do you accept that Israelis too have a valid claim in this land?

Valid claim in this land? Yes. Valid claim of all this land and the right to create a militarized buffer zone anywhere you deem necessary, no.

exactly why the UN will never be fair to Israel.
so let me get this straight, if the UN, by majority decides something, just because its a majority , its acceptable?
even the most extreme democracy has balances. lucky for the UN, the US veto is one of them.

Arab countries are not the only members of the UN. What is it, 189 countries or so? Besides, there is no balance. The US holds all the power right now. The UN can resolve whatever it wants but if the US isn't on board then it's just a useless piece of paper.


I'm sure Israel's existance is the reason, i'm just not willing to pack my things and leave. I am willing to give up a lot of what i could consider mine for the chance of peace.

"What I consider mine". Well there it is in a nutshell. Basically your currently recognized international borders do not encompass what you consider "yours" therefore you're trying to expand your borders using force. So don't pretend to be surprised when the current property owners resist.

Israel did it in 1948 and got invaded. Israel did it with egypt. Israel did it with Jordan. Israel tried to did it with the PA and got loads of terrorism in exchange.

Could we please quit with the "we pulled completely out of Gaza and we were attacked" stuff? Israel's military presence never left.


first of all I don't see Israel as the aggressor and I don't see the UN working so hard on other, more violent conflicts on this planet.

Possibly because the Arab/Israel conflict has a serious global impact.


we pulled out of Gaza and got missiles in return
Israel never quit firing missiles into Gaza and kidnapping, excuse me, "arresting" Palestinians so I don't consider that pulling out of Gaza.

we pulled out of lebanon and got Hezollah with 15,000 rockets picking up fights.
You don't conisder Israel's daily aggressive military posturing picking a fight?
if i'm not mistaked, it wasn't israel who crossed the border and started this war.
And that of course depends on your perspective

you keep saying that but its nothing more of empty words.
If you can't recognize the extent to which Israel's military provokes its neighbors then there's nothing else I can say

what "lands" would that be?

Start by pulling completely out of Lebanon, Golan and Gaza. That includes airspace. And then invite all parties involved to a negotiating table to talk about how you're going to handle the west bank and Jerusalem. Also, while you're sitting at the negotiating table Israel could send people to clean up the mines and cluster bomblets that it's left behind. Maybe send some of the bulldozers that are used to flatten people's houses down to Lebanon to help clean up the mess that Israel left behind. That sort of goodwill gesture would go a long way towards showing the world that Israel wants peace and respects the human rights of others.

although the US is helping Israel I do not want american soldiers to come fight my wars
Well I don't like sending a country $3 billion/year and then have them behave in a manner that puts my country in danger
and as for the UN, it seems it can't even set up the "peace keeping" force meant to go into lebanon, now that france decided to send 200 troops instead of 4000

It seems that they're uneasy with the lack of specificity with regard to the mandate. That aside, I'd be concerned about sending in troops when it's obvious that Israel is ignoring the ceasefire. What are those thousands of troops supposed to do if Israel launches another invasion?

I don't really care what you consider Israel. I live here and I know how much we value peace. but we also value our right to live here.

Where is "here"? It seems to me that Israel is quite content with the current conflict so long as it eventually leads to a larger "here". And as an aside, I simply can't get over that it is 2006 and the same piece of real estate is being fought over by people who are historically and genetically the same and whose religions are all based on Abraham. It's pointless and just goes to show that humans haven't evolved as far as they should have by now.

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[falxori 0]

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If you don't recognize that the modern state of Israel was established in a manner that forcibly displaced the current residents then you're right. No need to continue.

the modern state of Israel was created in the manner in which it was created because one side did not accept the peaceful offer, and it wasn't israel.

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Valid claim in this land? Yes. Valid claim of all this land and the right to create a militarized buffer zone anywhere you deem necessary, no.

ok then if we both have a valid claim here the solution is to divide the land between the two. and until the palestinians are willing to settle for less then 100%, there will be no peace.

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Arab countries are not the only members of the UN. What is it, 189 countries or so?

yes, but they have an automatic head start of 30%, and many others who follow the popular vote.

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"What I consider mine". Well there it is in a nutshell.

first of all, when you quote, quote the right words and read again what i wrote. i said that i'm willing to give up parts of Israel (including where my family home was until 1936) for peace. and yes, i can consider all of Israel to be ours, but still be willing to recognize the reality that there is another nation here.

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Could we please quit with the "we pulled completely out of Gaza and we were attacked" stuff? Israel's military presence never left

once again you are wrong. after the pull out there was not even a single Israeli (civilian or soldier) in Gaza, nor on the border between Gaza and Egypt (and we'll hear about that when more advanced missiles start flying out of there too...)

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You don't conisder Israel's daily aggressive military posturing picking a fight?

what "daily aggressive military posturing" ? and beside, picking a fight is shooting across the border or crossing it like Hezbollah did, not "posturing", whatever that has to do with anything...

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And that of course depends on your perspective

no, it simply what happened. I don't see how you can deny that.

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If you can't recognize the extent to which Israel's military provokes its neighbors then there's nothing else I can say

then stop. or explain how Israel is "provoking" anyone (beside existing)

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Start by pulling completely out of Lebanon, Golan and Gaza.

once again... Israel has pulled out of lebanon and Gaza. was there peace and quiet afterwards? hell no.
and how about the syrians "show some good will" and stop funding terror, arming hezbollah and hosting pretty much all of the terrorist organizations' HQs?
how about Hamas uses Gaza after there is no Israeli there to show they can live peacefully and start building a state instead of lunching hundreds of missiles into Israel?
how about the Lebanese government pulling its thumb out of its ass and take over their own land in southern lebanon instead of allowing the Iranians to control it through Hezbollah?
it seems that whenever Israel does something for "good will" it get slapped in the face.

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when it's obvious that Israel is ignoring the ceasefire. What are those thousands of troops supposed to do if Israel launches another invasion?

you mean like Hezbollah's announcements that it will remain in southern lebanon and will not give up its weapons (which is the base of the cease fire)?
the international force HAS to be strong enough and with a mandate to stop Hezbollah, unlike the current UNIFIL which is useless.

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It seems to me that Israel is quite content with the current conflict

then once again, you know nothing about what Israelis think.

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[idrankwhat 0]

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the international force HAS to be strong enough and with a mandate to stop Hezbollah, unlike the current UNIFIL which is useless.

You mean dead, as in deliberately blown to pieces.
I'll get to the rest when I get a chance.

[falxori 0]

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You mean dead, as in deliberately blown to pieces.

that's one of the outcomes of UNIFIL being unable or unwanting to stop Hezbollah (Hezbollah using them as shields, that is), as described by the UMIFIL officer who was killed there.

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[idrankwhat 0]

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You mean dead, as in deliberately blown to pieces.

that's one of the outcomes of UNIFIL being unable or unwanting to stop Hezbollah (Hezbollah using them as shields, that is), as described by the UMIFIL officer who was killed there.

So basically you're saying that Israel can kill whoever it wants if they claim that Hezbollah, Hamas or even SUSPECTED Hezbollah or Hamas is in or has been in the area? It must be nice to make the human rights rules up as you go along and then not have to answer for your actions.

[falxori 0]

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So basically you're saying that Israel can kill whoever it wants if they claim that Hezbollah, Hamas or even SUSPECTED Hezbollah or Hamas is in or has been in the area? It must be nice to make the human rights rules up as you go along and then not have to answer for your actions

you assume Israel "wanted" to kill them which is not true.
Israel has the right and even obligation to fire back when fired upon and if the ones firing on it hide in a civilian home or in a UN structure than its their problem (and in case you don't know, there are rules against that).
according to you, firing from within a village makes you immune. sorry but it doesn't work like that, and the blood of civilians in that case is on your hands.

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[Darius11 12]

Yep not surprised Israel doesn’t want peace Israel wants dominance. All they seem to do is antagonize their neighbors and once they get a retaliation they say ”Hey look the crazy Muslims are attacking our peaceful nation again”. It has been happening for 58 years it will keep happening until the US decides to hold Israel accountable and stops the support they receive.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[idrankwhat 0]

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you assume Israel "wanted" to kill them which is not true.
Israel has the right and even obligation to fire back when fired upon and if the ones firing on it hide in a civilian home or in a UN structure than its their problem (and in case you don't know, there are rules against that).
according to you, firing from within a village makes you immune. sorry but it doesn't work like that, and the blood of civilians in that case is on your hands.

So is that the official line now? That Hizbollah was firing from the UN post? Am I to assume that the source is the same one that referred to the bulldozer that killed Rachel Corrie as "falling debris"?

[falxori 0]

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So is that the official line now? That Hizbollah was firing from the UN post? Am I to assume that the source is the same one that referred to the bulldozer that killed Rachel Corrie as "falling debris"?

no, the source is the actual UN officer who got killed there in an email sent a few days before the incident. he wrote that although Israeli shells have fallen in their area "This has not been deliberate targeting, but rather due to tactical necessity." due to the fact that hezbollah fighters are all over the place.
and there is more than one video showing rocket launchers fire and then quickly hide inside villages and even homes.

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[idrankwhat 0]

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no, the source is the actual UN officer who got killed there in an email sent a few days before the incident. he wrote that although Israeli shells have fallen in their area "This has not been deliberate targeting, but rather due to tactical necessity." due to the fact that hezbollah fighters are all over the place.

This supposed email does nothing to address what happened on the day the post was destroyed. What's the source for this information? Last I read was that Annan was disappointed that the investigation was not going to be a joint investigation but soley the responsibility of Israel. But again, the email even if authentic says nothing about the deliberate targeting of the UN post on the day it was destroyed.

[falxori 0]

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This supposed email does nothing to address what happened on the day the post was destroyed. What's the source for this information? Last I read was that Annan was disappointed that the investigation was not going to be a joint investigation but soley the responsibility of Israel. But again, the email even if authentic says nothing about the deliberate targeting of the UN post on the day it was destroyed.

obviously it doesn't describe what happened the same day, but it does illustrate the reality in which you have Hezbollah fighters in and arround the UN outpost.
if you insist on blaming Israel nothing will change your mind so its useless. Israel has nothing to gain from destroying a UN outpost.

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[Darius11 12]

You know what I don’t get. It is not just one incident where Israel has broken International law or targeted civilians. It has happened over and over again. Are all of them made up i mean is there an excuse for all of them?

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[kelpdiver 2]

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”Hey look the crazy Muslims are attacking our peaceful nation again”. It has been happening for 58 years

taken out of context, your statement becomes rather accurate. Though I'd strike out the peaceful, it's clear who the aggressors have been.

[Darius11 12]

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if you insist on blaming Israel nothing will change your mind so its useless. Israel has nothing to gain from destroying a UN outpost.

Maybe to stop the UN observation posts from observing? Maybe to strike fear in any one who chooses to show Israel for what it really is? Maybe to show they have no mercy to anyone that disagrees with them or shows them in a light they do not want to be viewed in?

All of the above.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain