Bombardment of the UN Lebanon post

[shropshire 0]

I think that you've ,missed the point of the UN being at that location.... there were UN-Armed observers.... they could have tried to shooo the Hizbollah away like a naughty cat.

The IDF response, was once again, disproportionate.

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(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[Amazon 7]

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they could have tried to shooo the Hizbollah away like a naughty cat.

So Hezbollah stayed ... knowing the consequences.. and going after their real reason for being there.. more innocent deaths they can TRY to blame on the IDF.... and not on their actions to cause it.

Where is all your outrage of Hezbollah actions in placement of their rocket launchers where there HAS to be collateral damage which is what they desire.

[warpedskydiver 0]

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I wonder if the UN Observers called Hezbollah and asked them to not fire their katusha rockets from the UN position

I would bet NO

[falxori 0]

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These guys were O B S E R V E R S.

like they've "observed" and even Video taped the abduction and murder of 3 Israeli soldiers a few years ago (which btw was denied by the UN, until the video surfaced...)

do you know what the outpost looks like? where is the shelter and where exactly hizbollah was and wasn't?
btw, the UN still claims that "there was no Hizbollah" activity in the area, even when the UN guy who was there says they were all over the place.

I'm very sorry for the outcome of it, but you can't have enemy fighters running free at a UN post and expect nothing, and it seems that the poor UN guy knew that.

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[falxori 0]

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they could have tried to shooo the Hizbollah away like a naughty cat.

it seemed they've tried to tell the UN, but the UN (as always) ignored.
why didn't the UN make Hizbollah's use of UN outposts public?
why didn't the UN evacuate it's people, knowing their unarmed outpost is overrun by hizbollah?

i don't understand what's your problem with Israel's response, if Hizbollah is shooting from it, its a target.

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[StreetScooby 5]

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Israel has been bombing Lebanese facilities north of Beirut! In case you don't have a map handy thats a little more than 2 miles across the border.

Good point. I stand corrected. When I wrote that, I was only considering the ground force.

We are all engines of karma

[jaaska 0]

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I wonder if the UN Observers called Hezbollah and asked them to not fire their katusha rockets from the UN position

There was a blue print of the UN post in a local news paper. Unfortunately I could not find it in the net (I'll keep on trying).

In short. The post is very small, the only place one could have launched any rockets would have been the roof (also known as observation deck). Now, I'm pretty darn sure the H-bollah did not have access to the roof (the only way would have been trough the post and the radio messages that the observers sent did not imply that the post was in fact invaded. (Other wise they would have left with an armored vehicle, I'm sure).

So it was not a base or anything. It was just one armored building. Thus, the rockets were not launched from the building (it was not captured by the H-bollah or anything). Yes, the rockets might have (unfortunately the un-biased observers died, so we will never know) been launch from the neighborhood. See my post about armour etc...

Attached the picture of the post (you cannot really see, LQ, but there's barb-wire & stuff, the building was not taken!) and a pic of an UN vehicle...

[StreetScooby 5]

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My mindset is disappointment in the general tendency of all governments to abuse civilians when it suits them. Clearly you don't get that.

You're wrong.

We are all engines of karma

[skydyvr 0]

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My mindset is disappointment in the general tendency of all governments to abuse civilians when it suits them. Clearly you don't get that.

You're wrong.

Insubstantive answer -- got any examples of how he's wrong?

. . =(_8^(1)

[azdiver 0]

does this suprise anyone that hezbollah would us this as a shield, come on these people us kids as shields, their cowards, they want to fight and kill, but coware behind kids when real wariors come to fight back. their brave as can be when their out of danger, outraged as hell when theirs a tv camera around condeming the evil infiddels for killing thier shield

light travels faster than sound, that's why some people appear to be bright until you hear them speak

[StreetScooby 5]

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he UN people called multiple times asking for the shooting to stop and it didn't.

Apparently, they called the wrong people. Did they have the Hiz's number?

We are all engines of karma

[StreetScooby 5]

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In Reply To
In Reply To
My mindset is disappointment in the general tendency of all governments to abuse civilians when it suits them. Clearly you don't get that.

You're wrong.

Insubstantive answer -- got any examples of how he's wrong?

He made a comment that apparently I didn't get his disapointment in governments to abuse civilians when it suits them. I feel the same way. That's what I was referring to.

We are all engines of karma

[shropshire 0]

For some reason... the terrorists have gone ex-directory

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[StreetScooby 5]

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For some reason... the terrorists have gone ex-directory

Just another example of how ineffective the UN is Can't even find phone numbers when they're needed.

We are all engines of karma

[shropshire 0]

People seem to forget that the US is part of the UN.... when it suits them

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[StreetScooby 5]

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People seem to forget that the US is part of the UN.... when it suits them

I am one of those Americans who would love to see the UN based in the Sudan, where it belongs. It doesn't belong in NYC. Good luck, good riddance.

We are all engines of karma

[falxori 0]

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Yes, the rockets might have (unfortunately the un-biased observers died, so we will never know) been launch from the neighborhood.

shall i quote you the email from the guy who was actually there?

you (and others here) first ASSUMED that the UN post was attacked with a single purpose of killing them (as if Israel has any reason to do so).
now that there is absolute proof that Hizbollah was using the UN post as cover (as mentioned by the UN observers on site) you start analyzing the structure, ASSUMING where they might have been and what is the size and type of ammunition needed in order to kill the Hizbollah 10 feet from the outpost but not damage the outpost itself.

you can build a lot of thoeries based on these assumptions but the 2 basic facts remain
1)Israel has nothing to gain from killing UN personnel.
2)Hizbollah was using this outpost as cover (even if not on top of it) just like it uses a lot of civilian structures to hide its rockets.
and once it does, these structures become targets.


would you blame a cop shooting someone who was holding a hostage and shooting at other people if the hostage got hit by mistake too?

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[skydyvr 0]

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He made a comment that apparently I didn't get his disapointment in governments to abuse civilians when it suits them. I feel the same way. That's what I was referring to.

Ah, got it.

. . =(_8^(1)

[jaaska 0]

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Yes, the rockets might have (unfortunately the un-biased observers died, so we will never know) been launch from the neighborhood.

shall i quote you the email from the guy who was actually there?

you (and others here) first ASSUMED that the UN post was attacked with a single purpose of killing them (as if Israel has any reason to do so).
now that there is absolute proof that Hizbollah was using the UN post as cover (as mentioned by the UN observers on site) you start analyzing the structure, ASSUMING where they might have been and what is the size and type of ammunition needed in order to kill the Hizbollah 10 feet from the outpost but not damage the outpost itself.

you can build a lot of thoeries based on these assumptions but the 2 basic facts remain
1)Israel has nothing to gain from killing UN personnel.
2)Hizbollah was using this outpost as cover (even if not on top of it) just like it uses a lot of civilian structures to hide its rockets.
and once it does, these structures become targets.

The rocket guys were not in the structure. The UN observers called in the period of over 6 hours to the IDF and told them, that they have a wrong target. The IDF received the message multiple times (10). The final hit (that actually levelled the building, including the shelter) came from a laser guided bomb. If they could point the laser, they could SURELY read the label (UN). When the UN rescue unit (an armored vehicle) came to the site after final hit (to evacuate), IDF targeted that unit. The vehicle is big, white armoured truck (H-bollah does not have anything like that) with VERY big letters spelling UN.

According to an Estonian officer who was in the in the area, it COULD NOT HAVE BEEN an accident.

The building was not used by H-bollah, as some try to imply!!

[shropshire 0]

Once the US has paid it's debts... I guess it could be allowed to leave (watch out for the door slamming on your arse though)

31 May 2006
Regular Budget: $675 million (56%)
Peacekeeping: $554 million (40%)
Total: $1,286 million (47%)

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(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[falxori 0]

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The rocket guys were not in the structure.

first it was said there were none in the whole area.
if they've fired rockets from 10 feet of the structure its the same thing.

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When the UN rescue unit (an armored vehicle) came to the site after final hit (to evacuate), IDF targeted that unit

where did you get this from? i never heard this before.

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According to an Estonian officer who was in the in the area, it COULD NOT HAVE BEEN an accident

yeah well, according to the UN secretary general there was NO Hizbollah activity in the area.
does this officer have all of the info? is he qualiffied to make this absolute claim? could it be that he was looking for someone to blame over the regretable loss of his friend's lives?

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The building was not used by H-bollah, as some try to imply!!

you mean as the UN officer who was stationed there claimed?

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[jaaska 0]

OK... I even though I read the email I could not find that comment of "they use our post to lauch rockets"... Could you please point me where the canadian wrote that the building was taken... Thanks.

Correct me if I'm wrong. It sounds to me that you think, that IDF did the right thing even though they received a message that they were in fact bombing the post and the observers?

Edited to add: The above comment goes to anyone who says that the bombing was for a good reason even after the IDF received the message... Please tell me, if you truly believe so - because if you do, this whole conversation is pointless...

[falxori 0]

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Could you please point me where the canadian wrote that the building was taken... Thanks.

i don't know about "building taken" but here you go :

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"What that means is, in plain English, 'We've got Hezbollah fighters running around in our positions, taking our positions here and then using us for shields and then engaging the (Israeli Defence Forces)," he said.

i think this statement is pretty clear in saying that hizbollah was in fact turning the UN outpost into a legitemite target.

as soon as there are Hizbollah in/on/under or around the UN post, it is no longer neutral. if the UN didnt want them there (which i'm sure was the case) it was entirely their job to kick them out.

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Correct me if I'm wrong. It sounds to me that you think, that IDF did the right thing even though they received a messsage that they were in fact bombing the post and the observers?

what i'm saying is that Israel's target was still Hizbollah and where it is firing from and not the UN personnel directly.
according to your idea, if Hizbollah is firing from civilian/UN area, it should be immune.
well, it is not and the civilians' blood is on its hands

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[jaaska 0]

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*** you start analyzing the structure, ASSUMING where they might have been and what is the size and type of ammunition needed in order to kill the Hizbollah 10 feet from the outpost but not damage the outpost itself.

Just forgat that one. Have you ever fired a mortar? Have you witnessed what a laser guided anti-armour missile is capable of doing?

With a (light) mortar you can pretty nicely clean the area from any soft (non-armoured) targets. (say, men). Anti-armour stuff is different.

The first one would have left the observers alive in their shelter (I'm still trying to locate the blue print - I'll just find the paper and take dig.photo if I don't find in the net).
The second one clearly did not.

I have use a ligh mortar (real rounds, not in war of course). I have seen the effect of an laser guided anti-armour missile.

[falxori 0]

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With a (light) mortar you can pretty nicely clean the area from any soft (non-armoured) targets. (say, men). Anti-armour stuff is different

and with a sniper 500 meters from there you could nicely pick out the hizbollah fighter without even damaging the scenery...
but you do not know what was the tactic stance at the time and what was the availability of each type of ammunision there. you don't actually know when and where were hizbollah personnel in the area and what exactly they were doing there (beside the email stating they were usually there using the UN people as shields)

you keep blaming who hurt the shield and not who picked up an innocent shield while shooting others behind it...

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."