Any other American's feeling like they need to jump ship before the ship sinks?

[narcimund 0]

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Damn I appreciate that

I rest my case. My understanding of human nature is pretty good sometimes.

By the way shaiziel, you addressed the title of this thread to people who agree with you but I notice you're only engaging the people who disagree with you. That leads me to think you're not ready to go anywhere yet.

First Class Citizen Twice Over

[Channman 2]

> Yeah, N. Korea would feel just like home. They also have an oppressive regime. The warrantless domestic spying will feel like a familiar warm blanket. When a member of the media is jailed, you will get all warm and fuzzy. Oh, and when you are jailed without representation and beaten, you will KNOW you are home.



That sounds just like Cuba. Em I right?

[Gravitymaster 0]

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Why not stay and fight for what you DO believe in? You know, the grass is no greener anywhere else. All countries have their share of tyranny and oppression. I have travelled and worked in a few countries and have seen just how brown the ground can be. As much as I love Canada, Mexico and South America, the US is my home. They have the same problems as the US (even though some of their problems stem from US policy, i.e; the war on drugs have created billion dollar drug cartels that have all but destroyed countries south of our southern border).
I do understand your rant but not your motivation. Why wish to run when you are perfectly capable of fighting? You should take an example from people such as Jacqueline Patterson. She has endured so much in such a short time yet she is fighting a good fight and refuses to back down!!!! America has created so many wars and the majority of these wars are against its own people. Don't run like a whipped puppy but, hold your ground and fight like a pitbull. If a woman with cerebral palsy can do it so can everyone else.

My sentiments exactly. I have very little respect for those who chose to run from problems. If you don't like how things are, fight to change them instead of whimpering away hoping to find greener grass elasewhere.

[shaiziel 0]

This social battle isn't the problem. It's the economic clusterfuck we've put ourselves in. Only the big dogs can sort out their own problems which just happen to affect us. Unless you're talking French Revolution style, blood in the streets of the "oppressive rich", there will be no fight to fight by the little guys.

In actuality, I just want to make sure I'm in a place where my status as a human is still in place. Revolution and things of that nature require lowering the value of the opposing parties humanity. I will not deal in that business.

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[shaiziel 0]

Just trying to plug the noise. I know the positive and enriching posts are there. Just give me a moment.

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[Zipp0 1]

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Unless you're talking French Revolution style, blood in the streets of the "oppressive rich", there will be no fight to fight by the little guys.

You bring the shovels, I'll bring the pitchforks, axes and torches

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Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

[shaiziel 0]

I like this post really. I stand by what America was built to achieve and I appreciate the values America has had. But those things are being drowned out by the darker sides of human nature. Like any empire, destruction ultimately comes from within. And the nature of the creation and destruction of empires is cyclical. Trying to stop the cycle from going negative and turning it positive requires miraculous effort on the part of everyone. This doesn't really happen at all that I can see. It works just like the ocean tides. There are bigger things at work that just can't be stopped without some sort of inciting event.

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[shaiziel 0]

I've thought about it. The tinfoil hat wearing folks who talked about 9/11 being a Neocon conspiracy made me realize how much I really cared about the country. I was just thinking to myself and told others if it ever came out in the wash that any of this shit was carried out at the hands of the people in our government, I'd be lining up with the others outside our leaders homes, ready to open fire. My blood boils thinking about that. I care about the country but I won't jump in front of the bullets for an ungrateful society. I think it's getting time for an attitude adjustement.

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[wmw999 2,153]

I don't really want to get out, but I think that if you're doing it to move away from how America is now, you might want to consider your real reasons.

I've lived in another country. I absolutely loved it, and recommend it highly. My parents would too (I was a child/teenager at the time). But there are things that just work really well in the US.

Being US-American doesn't make one better; living here isn't necessarily better -- many people prefer their own countries, and remember that all countries come equipped with problems. We're just familiar with our problems, and consider them "normal."

Decide what is important to you, and find a place that will let you have that in a way that's integrated with the local culture. Nothing wrong with being an ex-pat. And yes, do learn the language.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[shaiziel 0]

I was really thinking about what it would be like to transplant to a new country. And I kept on evisioning the idea of being a foreigner. It was really cool to imagine what it would be like to have the cultural hurdles to overcome. You'll run into arrogant people anywhere, but it would probably be the coolest thing ever to be the "humble immigrant" and find a niche in a society not your own, where you could find a level of happiness.

It would be humbling indeed. Overcoming language barriers specifically would definitely put a new perspective on the trouble I have communicating with people of foreign descent who don't speak strong english.

I don't know where I'd move at this point but I have some ideas.

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[freethefly 6]

Shifts in social patterns directly affect economic patterns. Write letters, encourage boycots, attend rallies, speak louder if you feel you are not being heard. Look at the discussion your post generated. Dz.com as well as any other site on the internet is seen worldwide and it helps to form opinion. Don't just post here, post everywhere. The internet is a great political tool. Use it to yours and your kind's advantage. Forget the uninformed rhetoric of some who reply (I won't name names). If you are at all familiar with me, you know that my fight is AIDS and medical marijuana. I look past the rhetoric of those who have nothing to say on an intelligent level (they may or may not know who they are). Sometimes it is hard to do and I slide down to their level out of frustration. If you truely have something to say say it with conviction. Shore up your arguement with sound data. It wasn't a gun nor was it Ronald Reagan that brought down the Berlin Wall. It was those who believed in what they were doing. They used the social shift to shift the economic structure of Europe. The same can be done here.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[miked10270 0]

The thing which strikes me about your post is that you want to run away from "The American Problem" rather than trying to be part of the fix!

Because of this, I have a lot of sympathy with the folk I usually disagree with who've told you to go. I'd just like to add You won't be happy in The UK, either.

Mike.

Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable.

Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.

[Jib 0]

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This rationale is summed up with the "Oh look you saved a penny! Oh look I saved a dollar!" way of thinking. And it's true. The pennies we save are nothing compared to the dollars the top 1% are saving.

Do you understand that tax breaks are in part designed to encourage certain types of economic activities?

Why do you equate success with owing a debt? Why should success should be punished more by higher taxes than there are already in the graduated tax brackets?

The top 1% isn't saving shit. They are just not paying more and more and more. Why don't you want to encourage people to make an extra dollar rather than take away 40% of it? Do you think instead of overtime, people should just get more taken away in taxes?

The real problem for the world is China. It's a rationally run as opposed to by politicians and is built on slave labor, which we cannot even be able to consider competing with and combined with theft aka war/conquest, has been helpful to many past empires. Factories are being built there; hell, microsoft has an officer. As their standard of living increases closer to parity with the US, they'll be making money and those factories will never return here. They foster the best and brightest -- engineers and scientists; some here think they are owed something by them. India, Russia, ... we're screwed if we can't continue to invent and pioneer.

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the depth of his depravity sickens me.
-- Jerry Falwell, People v. Larry Flynt

[mnealtx 0]

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What we need is a nice hefty tax increase on the wealthy who have benefited and prospered in this country. Getting a few thousand more from a millionaire won't hurt them too badly.....

If you reword that to say," take from the industrious and give to the lazy," maybe you'll begin to look at it a little differently, unless, of course.... Well, I've already gotten one warning.

Yes, because, as we all know, the rich all started their own business in their garage and busted their asses for 50 years. None of them inherit their wealth and then sit on their asses collecting interest and stock dividends.

And all poor people are lazy, of course.

Zipp0

And all of that inherited money has already been taxed... so they pay taxes on their income from the interest and stock dividends. What's so unfair about that?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[kallend 1,651]

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Have you ever been outside the US? Here's an idea - why don't you head down to Central America on holiday, see how they live and then let us know how that works out for ya.

If that is the comparison you need to make you feel good about your country, then I'm sorry for you. Personally I'd like to be compared with over-achievers rather than under achievers.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 1,651]

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What we need is a nice hefty tax increase on the wealthy who have benefited and prospered in this country. Getting a few thousand more from a millionaire won't hurt them too badly.....

If you reword that to say," take from the industrious and give to the lazy," maybe you'll begin to look at it a little differently, unless, of course.... Well, I've already gotten one warning.

Yes, because, as we all know, the rich all started their own business in their garage and busted their asses for 50 years. None of them inherit their wealth and then sit on t

heir asses collecting interest and stock dividends.

And all poor people are lazy, of course.

Zipp0

And all of that inherited money has already been taxed... so they pay taxes on their income from the interest and stock dividends. What's so unfair about that?

All money is taxed multiple times - the argument that money has already been taxed is simply stupid. Where is it written that once a dollar has been taxed it may never be taxed again?

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rehmwa 2]

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Where is it written that once a dollar has been taxed it may never be taxed again?

ask any poor person with a savings account of any kind and I bet they think it's a good idea

we tax the 'flow' of money, changing that to just taxing it periodically is a major change with serious consequences to both the wealthy and the non-wealthy - it also encourages bad personal decisions - I'm not a fan of going down that road

(Of course, you didn't advocate that in your post rather just took the stance to call a discussion point stupid and stop there, but it ties out back into the thread - of course, neither did mnealtx say what you inferred either.....)

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[kallend 1,651]

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Yes, because, as we all know, the rich all started their own business in their garage and busted their asses for 50 years. None of them inherit their wealth and then sit on their asses collecting interest and stock dividends.

you can stereotype all you want, but the typical profile of a millionaire is exactly that guy in your first sentence

maybe you can set up a tax structure that only punishes those in the second sentence - but only those that you don't know personally

and to think I use my garage to just store stuff....what a waste

Don't confuse millionaires with "The Rich". Most of my neighbors are technically millionaires. "The Rich" are something else altogether, the 1% who have more assets than the bottom 90% of the country. "The Rich" are the folks who give the odd $20 million to their alma mater and don't miss it.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[shaiziel 0]

I understand your position. It looks horrible to be this person that was raised in a country and given so much opportunity, to not stay back and raise all kinds of hell to get things done. But you can say that about anyone. You can find fault in everyone's actions, but all of us are just trying to make it through life, have a little fun doing it, and die feeling like we did well. I'm not here to rain on anyone's parade or claw my way to the top of the ladder of sccuess. I'm here to live my life. And if I find that finding a new place will help me do that in one way or the other, then I'm all for it.

Call me a coward if you want, but you can't say I didn't step up. But I will pick and choose my battles.

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[kallend 1,651]

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Where is it written that once a dollar has been taxed it may never be taxed again?

ask any poor person with a savings account of any kind and I bet they think it's a good idea

we tax the 'flow' of money, changing that to just taxing it periodically is a major change with serious consequences to both the wealthy and the non-wealthy - it also encourages bad personal decisions - I'm not a fan of going down that road

(Of course, you didn't advocate that in your post rather just took the stance to call a discussion point stupid and stop there, but it ties out back into the thread - of course, neither did mnealtx say what you inferred either.....)

Where is it written that certain ways for the government to levy money from the governed are legitimate, and certain ways are illegitimate?
The argument that money has already been taxed is a stupid one.
Ever heard of "property tax"?

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[MarkR 0]

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If the US is a beggar, why does the world expect the US give money to everyone, fund the UN, ...

You mean "fund the UN" like in "unwilling to pay your dues out of protest"?

Rrrrrrrright-o.

»Somewhere between the lies and truths borderlines get shady.
Somewhere between the yesses and nos you can find the maybe.«

[Gravitymaster 0]

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If the US is a beggar, why does the world expect the US give money to everyone, fund the UN, ...

You mean "fund the UN" like in "unwilling to pay your dues out of protest"?

Rrrrrrrright-o.

I think a re-negotiation is in order since the US is so broke.

[skydyvr 0]

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Guess it's about time I should learn a new language and get ready to become the humble immigrant.

Don't let the door hit your ass on the way out.

America (and any other country) is better off without dead weight like this.

. . =(_8^(1)

[MarkR 0]

I have the perfect idea for the US government since its so broke: Cut the death tax. Honestly, like that Mr. Hilton and companions don't have to pay a few millions once they snuff it and leave their billions to their miscarried brats.

»Somewhere between the lies and truths borderlines get shady.
Somewhere between the yesses and nos you can find the maybe.«

[shaiziel 0]

I understand that tax breaks influence certain economic activities but all actions have equal and opposite reactions.

If a country cuts it's income and increases it's debt, making no effort to pay it back, that is flat out, mathematically fucking stupid.

You can't look at what we're doing from a single dimension. The effects of these "tax breaks" are multi-dimensional.

Here's the shit on everything:

We owe a lot of money to everyone.

We, as a country, have almost no export/production value to the world compared to what got us here.

We are a consumer driven economy.

When we run out of money, and when our lenders stop giving us credit, we start the slide down the slippery slope.

We don't need to be off liberating countries from evil dictators when we can't even take care of our own people. We are in no position to be doing the things we are doing internationally. We will collapse if nothing is done by the people who have power to do anything. If it's revolution you want, then fine, lets do it. But that won't fly with most people. It requires critical mass and I don't think we'll find it because our populous is too arrogant and self-absorbed to believe we can fail. That's why my feeble attempts to get anyone to realize that we are in DEEP shit will ultimately fail to stop the collapse. American's need it to be proved to them that we are not what we once were. The proof is coming. No one believes it. Bush and Co. keep telling everyone that things are getting better. People keep on buying it and don't feel like there is anything that needs to be done.

Something needs to be done. But the support we need to get it done is mitigated by the fact that over half of the country is a bunch of evangelical neo-conservatives that either believe things are going great, or that things don't need to be done because Jesus is coming back to save them.

It will require a war against a way of thinking and a belief system. If you'll note our striking success in the war on terror, you'll see that such wars do nothing but harm everyone. You can't fight an idea until enough people hate the idea.

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