Anyone still think that the war wasn't planned pre-9/11?

[SpeedRacer 1]

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I'm not usually one for conspiracy theories, but

OK, what impression do people get when a post begins with this phrase?

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[LRC 0]

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I'm not usually one for conspiracy theories, but

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OK, what impression do people get when a post begins with this phrase?

Sorry ...nutter.

[rehmwa 2]

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I'm not usually one for conspiracy theories, but

OK, what impression do people get when a post begins with this phrase?

I get an overwhelming urge to subscribe to their newletter........

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[idrankwhat 0]

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OK ,you are right, I have not read all of that so, simple question, Why?

For what purpose would the US want to do that?

And for your info, I do not buy the "New World Order" crap.

Well the PNAC does state right up front that they want us to take advantage of our post cold war position as lone superpower to create a world order that is suitable to our interests. That aside, it pretty much comes down to oil and Israel. I've got a number of quotes dealing with our how important the oil interest is but it basically boils down to whoever has control of the oil over there has dramatic influence on the world economy. What's not as obvious is the Israel thing. Iraq was not a stable country recently under Saddam. If Iraq were to fall into a failed state then it's quite likely that Iran and Syria would be able to take advantage of a very resource rich country. This would be the worst case scenario for Israel . So basically, we help Israel by overthrowing Saddam and installing a government that is favorable to Israel, backed by the US government, and keeping Iran and Syria in check.

[rushmc 18]

Protecting our interests too I would think.

I am OK with that, at least at this very basic level.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[idrankwhat 0]

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Protecting our interests too I would think.

I am OK with that, at least at this very basic level.

That's what I've always been pointing out. The administration always said "protecting our interests" but then never elaborated. And I don't have a problem with the fact that you will admit that you agree with their strategy. That way we can debate whether or not protecting Israel and destabilizing/restabilizing oil rich countries for our benefit is:
a) how we want to deal with our petroleum dependance
b) whether or not this is a Constitutional use of our military.
I'd love to turn the debate over to such truthful matters as opposed to 9/11 hearing about 9/11 WMD's, 9/11, liberating the oppressed, 9/11, our security, 9/11 mushroom clouds.

[rushmc 18]

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Protecting our interests too I would think.

I am OK with that, at least at this very basic level.

That's what I've always been pointing out. The administration always said "protecting our interests" but then never elaborated. And I don't have a problem with the fact that you will admit that you agree with their strategy. That way we can debate whether or not protecting Israel and destabilizing/restabilizing oil rich countries for our benefit is:
a) how we want to deal with our petroleum dependance
b) whether or not this is a Constitutional use of our military.
I'd love to turn the debate over to such truthful matters as opposed to 9/11 hearing about 9/11 WMD's, 9/11, liberating the oppressed, 9/11, our security, 9/11 mushroom clouds.

It would be a very interesting debate but there is no way to have/get the necessary fact.

As for the Constututional use of the military?

Explain why you think is was not.


I do happen to think though going into Iraq was an necessary response to 911 though.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[billvon 2,465]

>As for the Constututional use of the military?
>Explain why you think is was not.

One branch of the US government is authorized by the Constitution to declare war. Do you know which branch that is?

[rushmc 18]

Yes I do.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[billvon 2,465]

>Yes I do.

Then you have your answer.

[SpeedRacer 1]

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I do happen to think though going into Iraq was an necessary response to 911 though.

THIS is the part I don't get.

Explain why, given that Osama hated Saddam Hussein. Didn't Osama volunteer his mujahideen to go & fight Saddam Hussein back in the Gulf War 1991??

Also, explain why none of the 9/11 hijackers were Iraqis.

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[shropshire 0]

<> And still it continues... WTF ?

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(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[mnealtx 0]

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>As for the Constututional use of the military?
>Explain why you think is was not.

One branch of the US government is authorized by the Constitution to declare war. Do you know which branch that is?

Please provide links to the declarations of war for Korea, Vietnam, Somalia, Bosnia, Kosovo.....

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[idrankwhat 0]

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It would be a very interesting debate but there is no way to have/get the necessary fact.
As for the Constututional use of the military?
Explain why you think is was not.
I do happen to think though going into Iraq was an necessary response to 911 though.

The military is supposed to be used only for the defense of our country, not for resource plundering (I use the term "corporate mercenary" these days) or the defense of Israel. Certainly not for nation building. As for your assertion that we needed to hit Iraq after 9/11, I have two questions. Actually, no I don't. We've been down this road before and that part of the argument is pointless.

[rushmc 18]

Right back at ya

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 18]

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It would be a very interesting debate but there is no way to have/get the necessary fact.
As for the Constututional use of the military?
Explain why you think is was not.
I do happen to think though going into Iraq was an necessary response to 911 though.

The military is supposed to be used only for the defense of our country, not for resource plundering (I use the term "corporate mercenary" these days) or the defense of Israel. Certainly not for nation building. As for your assertion that we needed to hit Iraq after 9/11, I have two questions. Actually, no I don't. We've been down this road before and that part of the argument is pointless.

I believe it is currently being used to defend our security. You make a charge here that we are plundering Iraq. Proof?
We have many allies we would defend. Isreal is one of them. Do you hate Isreal?

You are right, You have been down this road before and you refuse to see the facts..........

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[busaunit 0]

war is about making money right down to the people fighting in it. y would anyone go to war if they where not getting payed?

I am sure there is a few reason y you would. But i am sure bush and his merry men didnt go to iraq because they care about the iraq people.

[idrankwhat 0]

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I believe it is currently being used to defend our security. You make a charge here that we are plundering Iraq. Proof?
We have many allies we would defend. Isreal is one of them. Do you hate Isreal?

You are right, You have been down this road before and you refuse to see the facts..........

Damn, and here I thought we were making some progress on open minded dialog. Obviously it doesn't take long to fall off that wagon. Do you remember what this thread was about? It was about this being a premeditated war against Iraq, that it had nothing to do with terrorism or 9/11. I'm not the one refusing to see the facts. You even showed a glimmer of realization there for a moment. As for Israel, no. I don't hate Israel but I do hate what they're doing. They are doing NOTHING towards striving for peace. They say that they want it but since Bush took office and swore his loyalty to Israel they have continued to occupy territory that is not theirs, are building a wall in the west bank in an obvious land grab, bulldozed over 60,000 Palestinian homes, some with people in them, and pretty much killed at will. They currently have about 60 UN resolutions against them for their behavior and those are 60 that the US DIDN'T veto. All of this is being done with huge sums of American taxpayer money. We have people wanting to kill us because of our unyeilding, blind, two faced support of Israel's terrorist behavior as well as our occupation and nation building project going on in rest of the middle east. Enough is enough. If we want to "win the war on terrorism" I suggest that we play hard ball with Israel, starting with cutting off their funding and recognizing Hamas is the legitimate, democratically elected authority. Then we "let the market sort it out" with regard to oil. The middle east has it. Tell them we're great consumers and we'll buy it from whichever country isn't threatening their neighbor. No exceptions. I know that the multinational oil companies won't approve of that approach but screw 'em, it's in the interest of our national security. Who's (supposed to be) running our country, US or them?

[idrankwhat 0]

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war is about making money right down to the people fighting in it. y would anyone go to war if they where not getting payed?

I am sure there is a few reason y you would. But i am sure bush and his merry men didnt go to iraq because they care about the iraq people.

Our weapons contractors make billions when we blow shit up and the supply/rebuilding contractors make billions in the aftermath. Follow the money. Who did those groups donate to most heavily in the last two elections?

[Royd 0]

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They say that they want it but since Bush took office and swore his loyalty to Israel they have continued to occupy territory that is not theirs

Who was the aggressor in 1967, when Israel kicked the shit out Egypt.
They had decided Israel didn't deserve to exist and tried to push them into the sea.
All land captured by Israel during that war belonged to them. To the victor go the spoils.
The Palestinians are a miserable bunch of cry babies.
Both people live on the same piece of desert, yet the Jews have a functioning economy and society.
Why can't the Palestinians do the same with what they've got?

[idrankwhat 0]

Who was the aggressor in 1967, when Israel kicked the shit out Egypt.
They had decided Israel didn't deserve to exist and tried to push them into the sea.
All land captured by Israel during that war belonged to them. To the victor go the spoils.

Wrong. The international community does not recognize this assertion nor does Israel claim it. Only the Israelies on the far right believe that, you know, the one's who killed their own leader because he was trying to make peace

The Palestinians are a miserable bunch of cry babies.
Both people live on the same piece of desert, yet the Jews have a functioning economy and society.
Why can't the Palestinians do the same with what they've got?

Do you think that if we sent the Palestinians $12 million dollars PER DAY and provided them with military hardware and the promise of international security that they might be a little bit better off?

[rushmc 18]

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I believe it is currently being used to defend our security. You make a charge here that we are plundering Iraq. Proof?
We have many allies we would defend. Isreal is one of them. Do you hate Isreal?

You are right, You have been down this road before and you refuse to see the facts..........

Damn, and here I thought we were making some progress on open minded dialog. Obviously it doesn't take long to fall off that wagon. Do you remember what this thread was about? It was about this being a premeditated war against Iraq, that it had nothing to do with terrorism or 9/11. I'm not the one refusing to see the facts. You even showed a glimmer of realization there for a moment. As for Israel, no. I don't hate Israel but I do hate what they're doing. They are doing NOTHING towards striving for peace. They say that they want it but since Bush took office and swore his loyalty to Israel they have continued to occupy territory that is not theirs, are building a wall in the west bank in an obvious land grab, bulldozed over 60,000 Palestinian homes, some with people in them, and pretty much killed at will. They currently have about 60 UN resolutions against them for their behavior and those are 60 that the US DIDN'T veto. All of this is being done with huge sums of American taxpayer money. We have people wanting to kill us because of our unyeilding, blind, two faced support of Israel's terrorist behavior as well as our occupation and nation building project going on in rest of the middle east. Enough is enough. If we want to "win the war on terrorism" I suggest that we play hard ball with Israel, starting with cutting off their funding and recognizing Hamas is the legitimate, democratically elected authority. Then we "let the market sort it out" with regard to oil. The middle east has it. Tell them we're great consumers and we'll buy it from whichever country isn't threatening their neighbor. No exceptions. I know that the multinational oil companies won't approve of that approach but screw 'em, it's in the interest of our national security. Who's (supposed to be) running our country, US or them?

For the most part I do not agree with any of this.

You have opinions about who is running what, and that is your perogative but I do not see it that way.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[Royd 0]

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Do you think that if we sent the Palestinians $12 million dollars PER DAY and provided them with military hardware and the promise of international security that they might be a little bit better off?

No, I don't. They would spend every dime on trying to destroy Israel, instead of actually building a functioning society.
The two nations could swap lands, and in short order two things would happen. Israel would build a functioning economy, and the Palestinians would turn the place into a slum, because their only goal would be to get back over and destroy the Jews.

[idrankwhat 0]

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For the most part I do not agree with any of this.

You have opinions about who is running what, and that is your perogative but I do not see it that way.

I know. And you're not alone. And while the US public continues to be fed misinformation as to why we're over there I'll assume that there's no chance that we're going to bring our troops home, we'll continue to alienate allies, continue to decline in world opinion, spend more money that we don't have, and be less safe.
My bet is that if we brought an honest debate out into the public forum, we would change course.

[rushmc 18]

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For the most part I do not agree with any of this.

You have opinions about who is running what, and that is your perogative but I do not see it that way.

I know. And you're not alone. And while the US public continues to be fed misinformation as to why we're over there I'll assume that there's no chance that we're going to bring our troops home,

Here is a perfect example of what I think is dishonest.

What misinformation? I beleive you belive this but based on what??

Where is your proof? Back it up please!

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

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