Women Soldiers

[Amazon 7]

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And before you start your routine blather, I was there, Vietnam.

Blah Blah Blah.. more of the same.... got any FACTS.. here.. I have some for you.

http://www.vetsoutreach.com/ptsd-factors.html


The individual suffers from feelings of helplessness, depression, dejection, and severe grief with frequent thoughts of suicide. In 1986, a study published in the New England Journal of Medicine found that men who served in Vietnam were nearly twice as likely to commit suicide as men who did not serve. This study reveals that the number who died since returning home from Vietnam is close to the number who died in Vietnam itself--around 59,000. (Veteran, September, 1988)

You were there......Really ...What unit were you in???

[Lefty 0]

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Do they feel the same way after they blow the shit out of a woman who they THINK might have been a threat to them in a little village???

Not sure. Personally, I might have a harder time pulling the trigger on a woman than I would on a man. A man's body is structured for fighting, presumably to defend females and territory. It's really not that hard to imagine that his psychology may be similarly constructed.

Provoking a reaction isn't the same thing as saying something meaningful.
-Calvin

[Amazon 7]

My point was this.. on the current battlefield they are getting to see dead women.... as has been the case in other wars.. death knows no specific age group or gender....it never has.

[Lefty 0]

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My point was this.. on the current battlefield they are getting so see dead women.... as has been the case in other wars.. death knows no specific age group or gender....it never has.

Well, it certainly wouldn't do them any favors to see more dead women. Casualties on the battlefield are something most armies try to limit, and casualties with strings attached are something to avoid even more.

Provoking a reaction isn't the same thing as saying something meaningful.
-Calvin

[jenfly00 0]

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I want to say "yes. if they meet the requirements, let them fight."

However, I wonder about the cultural and psychological dynamics and how that would be altered by placing women in combat units. It seems that men (some men, anyway, I know I'm generalizing here) have an instinct to protect women. I'm not sure if it's biological or cultural, but it definitely seems to be there, and I wonder how that would affect the functionality of combat units.

An example: a few years ago, I was out at a bar with some karate buddies. We went outside so one of the guys could have a smoke, and there was a guy who was drunk off his ass who saw my friend's karate t-shirt and got a bit loud and threatening. I found myself pushed behind my two friends. They instinctively placed themselves between me and the drunk guy, even though, at that point, I was a better fighter than either of them and the drunk guy was more interested in picking a fight with my friend than he was in bothering me.

Men and women have more differences than just their reproductive organs. We are all more than the sum of our parts. There are cultural and perhaps biological factors that must be taken into account before we put women in combat.

I'm not saying women shouldn't be in combat. I'd like to see a woman in combat if she wants to be there. However, I don't think it'll be as simple as just opening the combat jobs to women. There's a lot going on psychologically, in both men and women, that will need to be factored in.

Yes, it would cause a lot of problems ...just like integrating schools. It is however the right thing to do, so let's do, sort out the problems and become a better people because of it.

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"O brave new world that has such people in it".

[MC208B 0]

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And before you start your routine blather, I was there, Vietnam.

Blah Blah Blah.. more of the same.... got any FACTS.. here.. I have some for you.

http://www.vetsoutreach.com/ptsd-factors.html


The individual suffers from feelings of helplessness, depression, dejection, and severe grief with frequent thoughts of suicide. In 1986, a study published in the New England Journal of Medicine found that men who served in Vietnam were nearly twice as likely to commit suicide as men who did not serve. This study reveals that the number who died since returning home from Vietnam is close to the number who died in Vietnam itself--around 59,000. (Veteran, September, 1988)

You were there......Really ...What unit were you in???

D troop, 17th Air Cav, 11th CAG, 1st Aviation Brigade.
Marble Mountain and DaNang main. Any other questions?

[Guest]

My opinion: It depends.

From James F. Dunnigan's Strategy Page:

Women in Combat 7/8/2005 10:46:46 PM

About eight percent of the U.S. troops in Iraq are women. About two percent of the casualties have been women, which reflects the prohibitions on women serving in combat units. But in the army, every unit in a combat zone must be ready to encounter an armed enemy. That’s why everyone in uniform is trained to use weapons, and perform basic combat maneuvers. Starting in the 1990s, the United States began to ease up on the combat training of non-combat troops, mainly because the politicians insisted that women and men be trained together when they received their initial (and often only) combat training. Women could not keep up with the men, so the training was watered down. This was revealed as a bad move in 2003, when many non-combat units were exposed to combat, and performed poorly. More combat training was subsequently given to combat support troops, and the performance problems have largely gone away.

The issue of women in combat is still contentious. Throughout history, women have performed well in combat in situations where pure physical force was not a major factor. For example, women were often a large part of the defending force in sieges. Once lightweight firearms appeared in the last century, women were even deadlier in combat. But only in combat situations where the superior physical strength of men was not a factor. Infantry combat is intensely physical, and women remain at a disadvantage here (except for some specialist tasks, like sniping.)

In Iraq, women frequently operate in combat situations, especially MPs (Military Police). While not technically combat troops, MPs traditionally are responsible for the safety of military traffic, especially if there is a chance of convoys being attacked. Thus many of the MPs in Iraq spend nearly all their time escorting convoys through dangerous areas. A female MP sergeant recently received a Silver Star for bravery, and an outstanding combat leadership award, for leading her outnumbered troops in defeating a fifty man force that had ambushed a convoy. Female MP NCOs and troops are often in situations like that, and there have been no complaints about their performance.

In the last century, there have been several attempts to use women in these types of combat units, and all have failed. When given a choice, far fewer women will choose combat jobs (infantry, armor, artillery.) But duty as MPs does attract a lot of women, as do jobs like fighter, bomber and helicopter pilots and crews. That works.

All emphasis mine.

mh

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[rehmwa 2]

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I believe it is psychologically shattering for people to see anyone die in combat

whether it be a .....I think it has more to do with who we are than our gender.

I hate to agree with Hawkins because of his delivery, but on this ONE reply - and it's about general behavior, not the occasional exception or example....

Men have a harder time seeing women die. Adults have a hard time seeing children die. It's coded in the genetics over thousands of years from a reproduction and survival of the species response. If you believe in evolution, you have to acknowledge this. Not to say we don't have a hard time seeing any other type of death, but the impact is dramatically different - unless you're a sociopath.

As for it being psychologically "shattering" to see "anyone" die, I really doubt that. Bit of a drama there. But I suspect you mean for someone to be the cause of a physically violent death it might have a significant impact on most people.

Still, if a woman can meet the "exact same" requirements then it's up to her and her colleagues to deal with the 'other' stuff.

But in a very strength intensive combat role, I think a woman able to do the same job as a typical man would be a very exceptional woman (low percentage of all women compared to likely half of all men) - and it would be dangerous to have quotas for women in that roles if it allowed non-qualified women to participate. i.e. don't disallow the exceptional woman to participate if she makes the cut, but don't coddle anyone that can't.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[NtheSeaOrSky 0]

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I believe it is psychologically shattering for people to see anyone die in combat

whether it be a .....I think it has more to do with who we are than our gender.

I hate to agree with Hawkins because of his delivery, but on this ONE reply - and it's about general behavior, not the occasional exception or example....

Men have a harder time seeing women die. Adults have a hard time seeing children die. It's coded in the genetics over thousands of years from a reproduction and survival of the species response. If you believe in evolution, you have to acknowledge this. Not to say we don't have a hard time seeing any other type of death, but the impact is dramatically different - unless you're a sociopath.

As for it being psychologically "shattering" to see "anyone" die, I really doubt that. Bit of a drama there. But I suspect you mean for someone to be the cause of a physically violent death it might have a significant impact on most people.

Still, if a woman can meet the "exact same" requirements then it's up to her and her colleagues to deal with the 'other' stuff.

But in a very strength intensive combat role, I think a woman able to do the same job as a typical man would be a very exceptional woman (low percentage of all women compared to likely half of all men) - and it would be dangerous to have quotas for women in that roles if it allowed non-qualified women to participate. i.e. don't disallow the exceptional woman to participate if she makes the cut, but don't coddle anyone that can't.

I guess I wasnt clear explaining this.

All other things being equal, the soldiers gender is not the ONE thing that makes their death a problem. There are many men who cant handle seeing another man die in combat. There are some that can 'leave it on the battlefield' and some who can't. It has been my experience that it is less to do with the gender of either party, but the individual's ability to cope.


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Life is not fair and there are no guarantees...

[Amazon 7]

I did notice you did not bother to comment on the numbers of Vets who committed suicide....you know the ones who died in the war and just did not realize it till later.


Ever Read Stolen Honor.... you might want to.

[rehmwa 2]

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the soldiers gender is not the ONE thing

Why did you waste your time on something so obtuse, then?

The point is males having a harder time with the death of females rather than other males, all other things being equal - regardless of the variety of variation in the ability to cope with the concept in general.

We're talking a SIGNIFICANT 'relative' effect, not the absolute effect you are talking about. That's a given.

Consider this, if most people are very borderline in dealing with death in general (I can infer that's your position fairly easily from your posts), then would that extra difficulty in coping with the death of a female vs a male be enough to push them over their personal 'edge'?

I don't think it's a 'little' extra either, I think it's a very significant delta.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[NtheSeaOrSky 0]

My reason for even bringing it up was in reply to Lefty's post on it being 'psychologically shattering to see women die in combat" (and you thought that was just my drama )

This thread touched on sexual tension, differences in physical ability, instincts as protectors and to that point the psychological effect seeing a woman die has on male soldiers.

My posts were an attempt to show that if seeing a woman die over a man is a big enough problem for a soldier the problem might rest within their training and preparation.

This is only my experience and I dont expect it to change anyones mind, only to give them a wider lens to view it with - that is why 'I wasted my time'.


.

Life is not fair and there are no guarantees...

[Lefty 0]

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(and you thought that was just my drama )

Hey now, time will tell on whether or not it is an issue with me, although I'd much prefer to never know how I'd react. I was just going off the experience of others.

Provoking a reaction isn't the same thing as saying something meaningful.
-Calvin

[NtheSeaOrSky 0]

That was NOT a knock on you, Lefty. It was in response to remwhas post where it appeared he thought I was being dramatic

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As for it being psychologically "shattering" to see "anyone" die, I really doubt that. Bit of a drama there. But I suspect you mean for someone to be the cause of a physically violent death it might have a significant impact on most people.

Life is not fair and there are no guarantees...

[ViperPilot 0]

I definitely agree with the non-biased physical tests. As long as they can hack it the same as a guy, they're in. From my perspective...there are chicks who can fly damn well. As long as they can perform to the same standards, there's absolutely no reason why they shouldn't be able to fight. I've also read several accounts about women soldiers in Iraq who weren't supposed to be in combat, but ended up there, and ended up doing very well.

[steveorino 7]

My view is tainted I admit. I was in the Army during a time they were trying to intergrate the sexes at any cost. They lowered the standard of jump school so some women could be airborne qualified. Maybe they still do now, I don't know, I've heard both. But depsite what they may do now --back in the late 70s they did produce a second standard. Then when I was in Special Forces a cadet petitioned to go through the SF Officer's course. She had some political weight somewhere, and she was allowed in the training. She flunked land nav and tried to sue the government stating she was a victom of sexism. Gimme a break!
So, my views on women in combat are mixed, but for good reason.

steveOrino

[rehmwa 2]

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My posts were an attempt to show that if seeing a woman die over a man is a big enough problem for a soldier the problem might rest within their training and preparation.

I can get on board with that statement. Training and preparation can overcome a lot of naturally bred instincts. Even including an abhorrence to death and the additional abhorrence when the death involves those we are bred as a species to protect (women and children).

Scary realy, that we can overcome our own specie's survival mechanisms.

So do you acknowledge that even though it is "dramatically" shattering to the male psyche to observe death of a male counterpart, that it would be even worse if that comrade was female or a child? (other things being equal if that's even possible)

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[ViperPilot 0]

Yeah I don't blame you there...that's bullshit to make second-rate standards so women can get in. If she can't hack it (obviously couldn't), then she needs to shut her mouth and get the fuck out. Sueing...what a douche.

[NtheSeaOrSky 0]

I think what is 'worse' will vary from person to person and situation to situation.

Given the people I have encountered in the military who have issues with women, I dare say it would phase them less

In all seriousness, I am sure there are people who will and people who wont have a problem with it. Much like jen's reference to integration.

I would hope the people fighting had accepted their very worst fear could be realized (whether it be seeing a woman/best friend/etc die violently or not) - and have prepared (not necessarily accepted) for that instance beforehand.


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Life is not fair and there are no guarantees...

[rehmwa 2]

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I would hope the people fighting had accepted their very worst fear could be realized

funny haircuts?

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[NtheSeaOrSky 0]

that too

Life is not fair and there are no guarantees...

[ACMESkydiver 0]

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Yes, it would cause a lot of problems ...just like integrating schools. It is however the right thing to do, so let's do, sort out the problems and become a better people because of it.

You are failing to realize that the military is a tool, a weapon. If it won't increase the skill or accuracy of 'the weapon', no it isn't the right thing to do. Feel good shit is for civilians. Sorry to be blunt.

I was in the army while our training units were still separated by gender, and I was STILL in when they began integrating. -What happened when they combined genders immediately after our rotation was through? All HELL broke loose. Men and women cannot coexist in such a stressful environment without screwing each other, I am VERY SORRY TO ENLIGHTEN YOU TO A MILITARY TRUTH.

All of them? Of course not. But every training UNIT that had MIXED GENDER had soldiers, every damn time, put out of the military for screwing around. 8 women ended up pregnant in 2 weeks. Sexual assault charges abounded. High-ranking NCO's were kicked out of the military. Like I said, all hell broke loose. And that was just a little stress; that was here in the damn states! Those weren't live rounds flying over our heads! -No sexual scandals going on in Iraq amoungst soldiers? I beg to differ. Even those of you that are glued to crap like CNN's biased reporting have to have seen some of it.

Sorry again, but this isn't your algebra class in an integrated school. This is a life-threatening situation, and there is a difference.

The physical aspect -yes I know they have lowered some standards for women. Yes I saw it. I had to do 40 push-ups, a guy my age had to do 65. I had to run 2 miles in 19:58, a guy had to do it in 16:35 (not exact numbers; I don't recall the specifics). A woman in the army is not required to hold the same standard of physical fitness as a male. If that combat job that she is to hold requires the physical condition of a man, and she can't cut it, why even consider her? If she can, see above and below...

Women do very well in certain combat roles...fighter pilots, there are a few other roles I'm not catching right now, but they're there for sure. But to just open every specialty? Army Rangers...Special Forces? For women? You must be kidding.

Let's keep everyone's fluffy, happy, rainbow world for a moment and throw women into the Rangers, for instance. Rangers have been known to spend PROLONGED periods out in the middle of nowhere in filth on missions. I guess the women can just find a 7-11 and ask for some Tampax? Women would do fine in the same clothes for a week? There are basic physical and hygenic differences in men and women, and though many are too PC to remember that women have MENSTRUAL CYCLES that produce some uncombat-friendly symptoms every 28 days. What if you run out of pads in the field? I guess you just sit there and bleed for a while? Great idea for a soldier to be sitting in menstrual blood for days. Yes it's gross but geesus it's the truth I wish people would quit putting their blinders on.

I know they have new pills to effectively halt the cycle for up to 9 months or whatever. Okee dokee, you still have to take the pill daily? And if you forget, lose them, run out....? It isn't JUST this fact that we need to keep ourselves cleaner than usual once a month, but if that shouldn't be a factor, I dare you not to pack any tampons or pads for your next 2 week vacation and find a way to make it through without.

Sexual misconduct, physical differences, and hygenic requirements aside, the psychological part is huge as well.

Yes women are strong and powerful and vital, I am one, I know. But there are certain roles that women are not physically made for. And as for the psychological impact, that's very real too. I have a 9 year old daughter in wrestling, and other little boys don't want to see her get hurt in a fight! It's just wrestling...it isn't combat. They are only 9 for Pete's sake, but it shows you what the psychological challenges are in physical environments.

In conclusion (and I can't believe I have wasted this much time on this) if women could perform certain combat roles that would not require 'battlefield interaction' with their male counterparts and would not encompass missions which would take them away from their necessary hygiene for a period that would prove dangerous for her internal health (infection) and wouldn't allow for time spent 'behind the dumpster' during the down time, then have at it. Honestly, I think a small, all-female unit, 10 women, say, could be a very effective combat team. I think as long as it's an all-woman team in whcih each member is physically strong enough and has the endurance to complete the mission, it could be useful, as long as the other requirements are met as well.

~Jaye
Do not believe that possibly you can escape the reward of your action.

[jenfly00 0]

I understand.

There was a time when I thought convincing the men was going to be the hard part.

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"O brave new world that has such people in it".

[Nightingale 0]

Depo Provera stops menstruation in most women, and the shot is given once every 3 months. That would be an option for women in those kinds of conditions. However, I think you've made a damn good point.