The wussification of America

[RhondaLea 3]

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Do you always try and disagree with me?

Well, religion and childrearing. The first because we simply see the world differently. The second because I know how difficult it is to rear a child and you have not yet had the...um...pleasure.

I do agree with you when you say that some people let their children rule over them. OTOH, my grandmother did that with my father. She's now 99; he turned 74 yesterday.

And he's still a brat.

All I'm saying is that what you've focused on is not peculiar to the current era, so it doesn't explain the problem, at least not fully.

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I don't have to have my own children to understand the psychological development of children.

But it does help. The childless have a very odd view of children and their parents that is only cured by having a child of their own.

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Bottom line is, many parents today lack being authoritative enough with their kids; many problems result from this.

I have personal experience with my parental authority being undermined by the educational system.

No one wants to rear a brat, Sarah. But you can only exert so much control. The lines between too permissive/just right/too oppressive are very fine, and oppressive parents end up with children who are extremely narcissistic or otherwise personality disordered--which is really the problem we have today.

And no, I don't know what the solution is. I just know we're in trouble.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[windcatcher 0]

I agree; I think it is extremely hard to raise children in today's day and age. I know when I have children some day it will be exciting, but also extremely challenging at times. I can only hope to keep educating myself in such a way that will allow me to understand how to raise a child to the best of my ability and knowledge...though despite my efforts my child could still grow up being very rebellious, disobedient, dangerous,etc.

I think it is easier to talk about disciplining children than it is to actually do; however, my belief is that a lot of problems are due to either lack of discipline, or lack of the right kind of discipline.

As far as the whole educational systems having more control over your child in certain areas than you as a parent, that is just scary.

Mother to the cutest little thing in the world...

[lawrocket 3]

Now for another response:

Does anyone here agree with me that stuff like, "Project Self Esteem" are enirely misguided? There's such a focus on getting kids to feel good about themselves. It's like we want the world to forget EVERYTHING in the past.

Why not teach kids, "You know, people do drugs because hey make you feel good. They like them. THe problem is that feeling good is what too many people put at number one on their list."

Why not let kids feel good about what they've accomplished? If a kid is a fuck-up, shoot, let the kid know he's a fuck-up. LEt some of the kids know, "You aren't Harvard material, which is fine. Neither was I."

The wussification of America comes from a culture where honesty is not to be tolerated. It's the product of a culture where standards are not to be tolerated. Without standards, there's nothing to give any real sense of accomplishment.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[windcatcher 0]

I'm not too sure about my opinions concerning implementation of self esteem-raising programs in schools.
On one hand, raising self esteems could result in narcisstic individuals, yet on the other hand, several kids could benefit from having a healthier self esteem and how that relates to their role in the world.

Perhaps it is wise to let children see their mistakes...but not to the point of dwelling on them so much that they don't have any hopes or dreams for the future.

edited to add: A culture where you say, doesn't tolerate honestly, can be changed by an individual starting with himself/herself and then being honest with his/her kids.

Mother to the cutest little thing in the world...

[lawrocket 3]

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Perhaps it is wise to let children see their mistakes...but not to the point of dwelling on them so much that they don't have any hopes or dreams for the future.

Most people learn from mistakes. Some don't. The ones that don't learn from mistakes are the ones that dont' face any negative consequences from them.

So should the kid be told about mistakes? Yep. Should the kid face an important consequence from mistakes? Yep, depending on the nature. Should the kid figure out/be told how to avoid the same mistake in the future? Yep. Should the kid then be set forth to try again? Yep.

You know, it almost seems too simple, doesn't it? "Ooh, I can't tell my son to turn his music down. He won't like me."

Well, it is better to be respected than liked. And the odds are that the kid that thinks your cool as all hell today won't think so in 20 years. The one that resents you at 13 for keeping standards will probably love the hell outta you at 30.

I want my son to thank me at 30. I don't want my son to resent me at 30.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[windcatcher 0]

Completely agree

Mother to the cutest little thing in the world...

[mikkey 0]

As a Father and someone who has observed a lot of children, I think the key to having well functioning and well behaved kids is routine and consistency (mixed with a lot of love and attention) from an early age.

Children need reference points and the best way of giving it to them is to start very early with having a routine (certain time to go to bed, certain time to eat etc.) and complete consistency what is allowed and what is not allowed. If you start when they are babies (by using a firm routine with sleeping and eating patterns) you will have no problems with your children and you do not need to be a disciplinarian or slap your child. (From own experience, if you build the right loving relationship with a child, then a 5 minute “time out” is a much more efficient punishment then a “slap”).

As they get older it is all about consistency – i.e. never give in to a tantrum in the Supermarket when junior wants something he can’t have – once you cave him – you are “done”.

It sounds all “easy” but it’s not – but if you are good at it in the early years and mix it with a lot of love and time (time for you child(ren) is another key factor) you will then detect they will do much better in school too.

If a kid is used to a consistent set of routines and “rules”, the kid will have far less issues with home work etc. You can call it discipline – but it does not mean you have to be strict (you can spoil your kid in certain ways – as long as you are consistent). My boy is quite spoilt in many ways – but he is well behaved because he also understands exactly what is “ok” and what is not.

I think far too many people think schools are supposed to bring up their children – huge mistake. Most kids are already either “doing well” or having “problems” before they get to school. From my experience, Kids with problems or lack of “mental strength” or bad behaviour all had inconsistent parent’s – no firm routine / framework and no boundaries they understood. It is really this simple.

Some American friend told me that a very large number of children in the US are diagnosed with “ADD” and on drugs. I find that very sad. I think there is no thing like ADD there is “Adult Discipline Deficit”. If you study most cases you will find that most of these kids have been brought up in families with lack of structure and consistency – frustrating the kids to a degree where they become impossible to manage. I see this down here every day – difference is that doctors are less liberal with giving kids drugs.

So it is up to the parents, the role of school in regards to forming the child’s personality is over rated. It is the job of the parents. The right amount of competitiveness (if you want it) can be taught at home or by making sure the child participates in sport (important anyway) etc. The key task of the school on the “social” side is to have effective strategies against bullying and provide a safe learning environment.

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When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

[RhondaLea 3]

Okay.

Why don't we start with us, instead of talking about everyone else?

I received my skydiving training at the hands of two of the most misogynistic bastards that ever lived. Can you say "drill sergeant"? These guys were worse.

But it was explained to me not a whole lot later that they were an aberration. The new style in teaching skydiving is that of the tennis instructor. There will be no focus on the negative, but only on what the student did right.

Say again?

I experienced just that when I took the Skydive U course. It bugged the shit out of me, because--no matter what the subject--I prefer to hear "you really fucked that up" to some bullshit that dances around the issue.

We have met the enemy...

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[eeneR 1]

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I prefer to hear "you really fucked that up" to some bullshit that dances around the issue.

I agree with this 100%. Tell me what I did wrong and lets move on.

One thing I do want to add, I am a fan of rewarding good behaviour. Yes it is bribery, but it works. Do good, good things...do bad, bad things. I grew up in this kind of a house, infact the comment was made earlier about parents having respect of the kids. I respected and loved my mother. Yea sure growing up at times she was a bitch, but some how she managed to keep the motherly respect and balanced it with a friendship with me. She was more then just my mom. When I fucked up, I paid for it, when I did good things I was rewarded.

It frightens me to see how many kids EXPECT things, and are so spoiled to the point that the parents just roll over and give them what ever they want. I am fully aware that there are cases where the kids are just difficult, and some situations make it harder. But im refering to the ones there is no reason for it.

I have in my life had people BS me and tell me things were fine, no problem doing great. Get out into the "Real World" of what I was learning only to have my ass handed to me. Now all I could do was sit back and go WTF...pick up and charge back ahead. But that pissed me off more then the fact I fucked up. People gave me empty praise when it really wasnt due. Fake shit pisses me off...

She is not a "Dumb Blonde" - She is a "Light-Haired Detour Off The Information Superhighway."
eeneR
TF#72, FB#4130, Incauto

[RhondaLea 3]

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One thing I do want to add, I am a fan of rewarding good behaviour. Yes it is bribery, but it works. Do good, good things...do bad, bad things.

"Logical Consequences" work.

And they not only work for children, they work for normal adults too.

But the key to success is consistency. If you are not consistent in imposing logical consequences (both good and bad)...well...

I read about the "puppy experiment" a long time ago. Take three puppies with similar personalities. Treat one with love and consistent discipline.
Kick the next every day when you get home from work and as often in between as you can manage.
For the remaining puppy, alternate the above two behaviors.

The first dog will be a normal, loving, obedient dog.
The second dog will either turn out to be vicious or cowering, depending on its inherent personality.

And the third dog will be psycho--the kind that first cowers from your touch, then licks your hand but bites your ass the minute you turn around.

As bad as it is when we're talking about dogs, it's worse when we're talking about human children.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[mikkey 0]

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One thing I do want to add, I am a fan of rewarding good behaviour. Yes it is bribery, but it works. Do good, good things...do bad, bad things.

"Logical Consequences" work.

And they not only work for children, they work for normal adults too.

But the key to success is consistency. If you are not consistent in imposing logical consequences (both good and bad)...well...

I read about the "puppy experiment" a long time ago. Take three puppies with similar personalities. Treat one with love and consistent discipline.
Kick the next every day when you get home from work and as often in between as you can manage.
For the remaining puppy, alternate the above two behaviors.

The first dog will be a normal, loving, obedient dog.
The second dog will either turn out to be vicious or cowering, depending on its inherent personality.

And the third dog will be psycho--the kind that first cowers from your touch, then licks your hand but bites your ass the minute you turn around.

As bad as it is when we're talking about dogs, it's worse when we're talking about human children.

rl

I once saw a video with a well know American child psychologist (his name eludes me) who said that one of the biggest mistakes parents make is to treat their children like adults. He promoted to think of them more like puppies – which is your point - and the importance of consistency and the application of simple and easy to understand rules and routines.

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When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

[RhondaLea 3]

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He promoted to think of them more like puppies – which is your point - and the importance of consistency and the application of simple and easy to understand rules and routines.

Children love routine, and they hate surprises--even good surprises.

Never tell a child, "it's a surprise" because the person who will be surprised is you when the child begins to act like a total demon. Children lose lots of surprises that way.

The more you disrupt a child's day-to-day routines, the crazier the child becomes.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[mikkey 0]

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He promoted to think of them more like puppies – which is your point - and the importance of consistency and the application of simple and easy to understand rules and routines.

Children love routine, and they hate surprises--even good surprises.

Never tell a child, "it's a surprise" because the person who will be surprised is you when the child begins to act like a total demon. Children lose lots of surprises that way.

The more you disrupt a child's day-to-day routines, the crazier the child becomes.

rl

We totally agree - the point I would add - it's far more difficult then people without kids think. I have seen many parents who had the best intentions prior to birth who completely failed. Another issue is that many parents rely on grandparents in helping caring for the kid(s) and grandparents very often cause a lot of problems by not sticking to the rules.

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When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

[RhondaLea 3]

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...it's far more difficult then people without kids think.

My comments in this thread are not made because I was a perfect parent, but because I was just the opposite.

In other words, I have learned from my mistakes, for all the good it does me.

The only good news is that she turned out fine, but it was a rocky road through childhood.

Ask her. She's around here somewhere.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[Samurai136 0]

So, uh... Group consensus is:
1. Education and parenting today sucks!
2. Kids turn out ok, inspite of less than perfect or ideal parenting.
3. Harvard, Yale, MIT, and Cal Tech haven't had to lower their standards to maintain enrollment.

"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian
Ken

[Andy9o8 0]

I try to avoid posting "me, too" posts, but in this thread I feel the need to say that my opinion is pretty much the same as RL has posted here. The fact that she and I are about the same age & have each raised kids is no coincidence.
To a certain degree, skydiving is a "young" sport, at least at the "very active" levels. It's easier to be a very active skydiver when you're still single and childless, so an awfully lot of single and childless people post on DZ.com. As every parent understands, becoming a parent, and then raising children, are life- and psyche-altering experiences. Most of the time when I see someone post something about child-rearing, or discipline, etc., I can pretty accurately guess whether they have children of their own from what they say.

[L.O. 0]

You have to draw the line. If your children cross it and continue to cross it, you have to carry through You must stop it. They wont send them to jail first thing and if they continue to that point, suffer. That is callous, but you must draw the line, period.

I have not experienced this myself so I probably would cave some, but I am very discipline based and would carry through. Even if They had to suffer a lot in the short term it's better in the long run.

I have kids. 2. Perfect.

HPDBs, I hate those guys.
AFB, charter member.

[Gravitymaster 0]

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You have to draw the line. If your children cross it and continue to cross it, you have to carry through You must stop it. They wont send them to jail first thing and if they continue to that point, suffer. That is callous, but you must draw the line, period.

I have not experienced this myself so I probably would cave some, but I am very discipline based and would carry through. Even if They had to suffer a lot in the short term it's better in the long run.

I have kids. 2. Perfect.

I understand what you mean about drawing a line. What would you do if they keep stepping over the line? In the State of Maryland, they have a truancy law that requires the parent to serve time in jail if their children continue to skip school. I'm curious what parents would do if faced with these consequences.

[RhondaLea 3]

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I'm curious what parents would do if faced with these consequences.

They would teach by example.

The lesson to their children is: "If you do not obey me, I will be punished."

It's a great lesson, eh?

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[Vallerina 2]

There have ALWAYS been and always will be parents who do not discipline their children. The percentage has not changed much in America, and that percentage is different across cultures. America seems to want to keep our children, well...children for longer. Other countries (I think Germany...I could be wrong...I haven't read this stuff in awhile) want their children to be "adults" pretty fast. There's nothing wrong with either method. They're just different.

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Am I loosing it and becoming bitter in my old age?

Hey to pick on you, Renee, but yes! Things are different in society...some good and some bad, but the good ol' days never really were. For example, my nephews have access to many more activities than I had....and the activities they do are co-ed (when I was a kid...even at the age of four, it was girls soccer and boys soccer, etc.) There was no "real" competition for my nephew. Everyone received a trophy, but what he did learn was good sportsmanship and how to be a team player, which, in my opinion, is more important the emphasizing winning...especially for kids that young.

I don't think that parents nowadays are ruining society. They may be doing things a bit differently, but that doesn't mean it's bad. I think that every generation of parents hears how they're ruining our children. I don't think it's happened yet.

There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning

[eeneR 1]

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There have ALWAYS been and always will be parents who do not discipline their children.

Ok time out..first of the thread drifted from my original point...which is that society has made it ok when someone isn't doing something the right way, not just right or wrong, just not as good as they could to not correct them. Oh sure you are doing a fine job there Jan..when really Jan needs a bit of constructive criticism. This isn't just with raising kids, but in general. Yes it is happening in schools and more and more...but the issues comes down to the fact that is is not ok to correct someone when they are not quite doing something right. Which leads to people thinking they are good at things when they have no real idea.

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Things are different in society...some good and some bad, but the good ole days never really were.

Thats kind of funny you say that? I remember growing up having to earn my trophies, not given them, having to compete with people to get the gold medal, it wasn't handed to me. The good ole days were infact learning what it is like to earn something and not be handed things so not to just hurt my poor little feelings. This is my peeve. If we are not taught at an early age the reality of how life really works...it will be harder to learn later.

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Everyone received a trophy, but what he did learn was good sportsmanship and how to be a team player, which, in my opinion, is more important the emphasizing winning...especially for kids that young.

Ok thats great...explain to me then how they are taught good sportsmanship? part of good sportsmanship is knowing how to loose. If everyone wins you never learn how to loose. I understand the whole really young kids needed a slightly different structure. But this problem has gone too far. I'm sorry after the age of 5 kids can compete...

She is not a "Dumb Blonde" - She is a "Light-Haired Detour Off The Information Superhighway."
eeneR
TF#72, FB#4130, Incauto

[Vallerina 2]

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Ok thats great...explain to me then how they are taught good sportsmanship? part of good sportsmanship is knowing how to loose.

Yes, that is a part of good sportsmanship, but what about the kids who participate in non-competitive activities? Do you really think they're missing out on something? The only real physical activity I participated in as a young kid was dance. I started competing in it, but that wasn't until I was older. "Learning how to lose" isn't much different than learning how to deal with it when you don't get your way, and that is crucial for kids to learn. They don't have to lose to learn how to deal with it when they don't get their way.

Also, from what I've read, standardized tests are becoming even more important even though they are biased. Some of what you see as "letting kids get through life" is just an attempt at removing such a bias.

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The good ole days were infact learning what it is like to earn something and not be handed things so not to just hurt my poor little feelings.

I can understand what you are saying; I just don't agree with it. We've all seen the "uglier" side of sports. People who thought it was so important to win a medal would do anything for it. Even in dance when girls would try out for big roles, they would stave themselves so that they would have the right "look." Emphasizing winning has done some damage, and you think that deemphasizing it will do some. I don't think it matters much either way. My nephew got a little trophy from soccer, and he's very proud of it. He's in karate, and he'll eventually have to earn belts.

Plus, some kids just aren't competetive. I don't really see anything wrong with that. It's just a trait. Personally, I think America is a bit too sports-crazed and am pleased to see that parents would choose to send their kids to a physical activity (which is very important for children) where winning is definitely not everything. If kids love soccer and want to have fun with their friends but don't want to deal with the crazy coach, so be it.

There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning

[eeneR 1]

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Also, from what I've read, standardized tests are becoming even more important even though they are biased. Some of what you see as "letting kids get through life" is just an attempt at removing such a bias.

Bwahahahahahaha...ok sorry I just find that funny. So since some kids dont test well we will let them just pass thru? roflmao...now thats funny

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Plus, some kids just aren't competetive.

Thats easy, then dont put them in competive sports...but also do not make it easy so they can participate because they are not competitive. But in real life we are not handed things we have to work for them. That is my point...seems you are bypassing that.

Lets step aside from the sports aspect..
So then you think it is ok to not have failing grades? how about not failing any kids?

She is not a "Dumb Blonde" - She is a "Light-Haired Detour Off The Information Superhighway."
eeneR
TF#72, FB#4130, Incauto

[Vallerina 2]

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Bwahahahahahaha...ok sorry I just find that funny. So since some kids dont test well we will let them just pass thru? roflmao...now thats funny

Uhh...no. That's why I said I see standardized tests becoming more and more important. You cannot move past certain levels unless you pass certain standardized tests. Similar tests done when I was a kid were just used to show where you rank. They weren't used to hold you back a grade. So, in some ways, it's even more strict nowadays. That along with schools having less and less vacation, allowing fewer sick days, more summer work required at younger ages, I don't see how kids are just passing on through.

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So then you think it is ok to not have failing grades? how about not failing any kids?

I can understand in some classes not failing any kids who do the work required. The schools that I've heard about that weren't giving grades in certain classes it was due to the classes being very accelerated, or they were more "subjective" classes. I've not heard of NOT failing kids who do nothing in class. I can understand not failing a kid who completes all of his artwork to the best of his ability even if they are...well...horrible. Some of the "not failing" part is trying to encourage kids to still enjoy things like writing/music/art even if that's not where their natural talents lie.

There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning

[Richards 0]

I was working for Student Services and dealing with probationary students and I was not allowed to mention to them that they would need at least a B average to be considered for grad school as that would place undue pressure on them ( better to find out the hard way after graduating when it is too late I guess). Some of the other pleasures of our new "Lets not make them feel bad about themselves" mentality;

>When I was a TA I routinely had people senior to me force me to accept late assignments (despite the fact that the course outline said that was not allowed) because my expecting students to meet deadlines put undue pressure on them (of course deadlines would not happen in the real world)

> When conducting probationary seminars I could not deny people credit for for attending despite the fact that they showed up 15-25 minutes late (one hour seminars) because they "had at least made the effort of trying to show up"

>Was told to mark easier despite the fact that there was a clear marking scheme and I was already willing to give students almost full marks so long as they showed their work !

> When running a course I was not allowed to make reference to failure rates (which I always did in a positive encouraging manner) because that might intimidate students (Kind of like not addressing malfunctions during a jump course since it is an unpleasant subject)

> Could not ban people from the Help Centre for repeated disruptive conduct, because "they need to be counselled as to how they should behave"

Subsequently, our students act as though they have no personal responsibilities and unlimitted rights, and I myself have regrettably become complacent to this because I am sick and tired of fighting for permission to do my job well.

It makes me cringe when I think of what kind of people we are sending out into the world.

Richards

My biggest handicap is that sometimes the hole in the front of my head operates a tad bit faster than the grey matter contained within.